soley@ontenv.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) (08/10/88)
Can something be done about the practice some sites have of posting
their map entry to news.config every time they add or drop local
connections (I don't know what it is about Texans). Sometimes multiple
times in a week!
I'm sure that most of the net can wait for a "proper" map
update to find out that flibitz has added a connection to bloop
especially if pathalias already gives a valid path for bloop.
I'll concede that these things are of interest to those in the
vicinity of the involved site but can we please cut out the worldwide
distribution of this cruft.
--
Norman Soley - Data Communications Analyst - Ontario Ministry of the Environment
UUCP: utgpu!ontmoh!------------\ VOICE: +1 416 323 2623
{attcan,utzoo}!lsuc!ncrcan!ontenv!norm
"witty saying not available due to writers strike"dewey@execu.UUCP (Dewey Henize) (08/11/88)
In article <670@ontenv.UUCP> soley@ontenv.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) writes: >Can something be done about the practice some sites have of posting >their map entry to news.config every time they add or drop local >connections (I don't know what it is about Texans). Sometimes multiple >times in a week! > What is your problem with this? You don't want people to try to keep accurate data out there? Its overloading your machine? You can't handle the massive amounts of data? I don't know what it is about Canadians. Actually, I don't have a problem with Canadians, except for idiots that babble about Texans. Beats making a statement with meaning, eh? >I'm sure that most of the net can wait for a "proper" map >update to find out that flibitz has added a connection to bloop >especially if pathalias already gives a valid path for bloop. I'm sure the net can do without 95% of the postings that are put out every day - so? That means that because YOU don't care about timely info then no one else should? Maybe we should also not publish the silly maps but once every few YEARS, so you don't get inundated with boring info - you most likely don't care to know how to get to 99% of the the rest of the world anyhow, so why be swamped with this boring stuff!? > >I'll concede that these things are of interest to those in the >vicinity of the involved site but can we please cut out the worldwide >distribution of this cruft. >-- Complaining about recieving the most current information by folks that happen to CARE about information being as accurate as they can make it is a really interesting way to define 'cruft'. Of course, you don't figure massively in OUR list of priorities, but I at least am not suggesting that 'something be done' (by the way, by who? You just became a backbone? 1/2 :-) about you posting on news.config something that is not config info. Please post on here all the extremely useful, brilliant info that YOU have been appointed to bring to those of us not so enlightened, so we can learn by your sterling example, Ok? Thank you SO MUCH. >Norman Soley - Data Communications Analyst - Ontario Ministry of the Environment >UUCP: utgpu!ontmoh!------------\ VOICE: +1 416 323 2623 > {attcan,utzoo}!lsuc!ncrcan!ontenv!norm > "witty saying not available due to writers strike" -- =============================================================================== | execu!dewey Dewey Henize @ Execucom Systems Corp 512/346-3008 | | You don't think my employer APPROVES of these ideas, do you?? Sheesh! | ===============================================================================
james@bigtex.uucp (James Van Artsdalen) (08/12/88)
In article <278@execu.UUCP>, dewey@execu.UUCP (Dewey Henize) wrote: > What is your problem with this? You don't want people to try to keep > accurate data out there? Its overloading your machine? You can't handle > the massive amounts of data? I'll ignore most of the Dewey's flamage. How many people do you really think do an update of map data out of news.config? I certainly don't - I use uuhosts to pull the data out of comp.mail.maps only. The value of news.config to me is to know how news and mail might flow. Within Texas I think information about tness7 links are useful, because those links are fairly frequent and free (unlikely bigtex links into Dallas, which are free but infrequent). execu updates are useful to some Austinites for the maintaining manually constructed smail path data. But I honestly can't conceive of how data from any non-backbone site (I'll throw tness7 in this catagory even though it probably has enough downstream feeds to be considered a backbone) could be of interest in another state, much less another country. I would agree that such things ought to be posted with distribution limited to those interested. -- James R. Van Artsdalen ...!uunet!utastro!bigtex!james "Live Free or Die" Home: 512-346-2444 Work: 328-0282; 110 Wild Basin Rd. Ste #230, Austin TX 78746
jfh@rpp386.UUCP (John F. Haugh II) (08/12/88)
In article <670@ontenv.UUCP> soley@ontenv.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) writes: >Can something be done about the practice some sites have of posting >their map entry to news.config every time they add or drop local >connections (I don't know what it is about Texans). Sometimes multiple >times in a week! we do try to keep a tight leash on john meaders down here, but he manages to slip in the occasional map update for jclyde. some day he will have a much bigger system and all that practice will come in handy. >I'm sure that most of the net can wait for a "proper" map >update to find out that flibitz has added a connection to bloop >especially if pathalias already gives a valid path for bloop. trouble i'm having right now is people with mysterious one way connections into my system. right now half the net things the best way from uunet to dallas involves swbatl and rpp386. the path swbatl!rpp386 is plenty valid, as are many others; hell, last time i checked, ontenv!rpp386 should even work. the opposite is not true and keeping pathalias convinced is a real bitch. >I'll concede that these things are of interest to those in the >vicinity of the involved site but can we please cut out the worldwide >distribution of this cruft. well, like i said, for some of us this is a world wide sort of problem. uustat -montenv tells me even you have the potential to be a bad boy, norman. % uustat -montenv ontenv 07/19-09:51 conversation succeeded looks like it's been about three weeks since you paid a visit, so maybe next time i'll put !can on the distribution line ;-) leave us poor texans alone. you wouldn't want us to grab some tennessee volunteers and do to canada what we once did to mexico ... -- John F. Haugh II +--------- Cute Chocolate Quote --------- HASA, "S" Division | "USENET should not be confused with UUCP: killer!rpp386!jfh | something that matters, like CHOCOLATE" DOMAIN: jfh@rpp386.uucp | -- apologizes to Dennis O'Connor
bruce@petro.UUCP (Gilbert B. Andreen) (08/12/88)
In article <670@ontenv.UUCP> soley@ontenv.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) writes: >Can something be done about the practice some sites have of posting >their map entry to news.config every time they add or drop local >connections (I don't know what it is about Texans). Sometimes multiple The answer is probably not, and besides there are many folks out there who would rather use the most current data on site connectivity to generate pathalias information instead of data that they know to be incorrect. There should be a better way to make pathalias data available to all sites as quickly as possible other than the massive monthly map postings. I know this has been suggested before and it's still a problem in search of a solution -- perhaps a newsgroup that contains only pathalias data (map entries without the lines starting with #) which could be updated daily, weekly, or whatever. I'm not making a proposal here, just dragging out a dead horse for yet another flogging. What it is about Texans: Are you trying to start a war or something ? It would be my guess that your gonna hear what it is about Texans. (You really shouldn't have written that -- it wasn't nice and it has the potential of wasting more disk space than the MES nonsense) >I'll concede that these things are of interest to those in the >vicinity of the involved site but can we please cut out the worldwide >distribution of this cruft. Actually everyone should be interested because if mail to unknown site bloop is not addressed with a full path or to a domain that knows about bloop it's gonna bounce, which means twice the cost and nothing gets accomplished. Posted late at night from The Free State of Bexar in The Republic of Texas. -- Gilbert B. Andreen - bruce@petro.UUCP gatech!petro!bruce {uunet!dpmizar | bellcore!tness7 | ut-sally!swrinde}!petro!bruce
soley@ontenv.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) (08/12/88)
Well I guess I put my foot in something. I've been roundly flamed for
my posting on map updates in news.config. These have fallen
essentially 3 catagories:
Texans - by far the overwhelming majority of flames have come
from Texans upset about the "I don't know what it is
about Texans" remark I made. It was an attempt to be
a flippant and joshing reference to the fact that
most of the most obvious "offenders" are Texas based
sites and Yes I should have had a :-) in there.
To those who calmly pointed out that this
was unecessary and bigotted I apologize, you're
right. To those who responded with similar counter
attacks on Canadians ...
"what business do you have telling me or anyone else what to do" flames.
I made no attempt to tell anyone what to do. I, as a
member of a community (USENET), raised my concern over
something that I view as a problem, to that community,
for the community to discuss.
Defence (rational and otherwise) of map updates in news.config.
Many presented interesting views and perceptions and
so far they're about 50/50 divided between agreeing
and disagreeing with me. The dissenting staements
basically boil down to:
"You may not be interested in timely information but I
am, the maps don't provide that"
I am interested in timely information provided
it is accurate and presented in a useable form as
efficiently as is reasonable. But these posings simply
do not serve that aim.
In my own defence an couple examples:
When killer went off the net a while ago there was a
flurry of activity when all these sites posted their
map entries with killer marked (DEAD) then when it
came back another round of postings. It would have
been much easier to post a "killer is dead please do a
-d killer on your next pathalias run"
When new sites pop up they post an entry in
news.newsites, good, this is useful information, in
the right place. The way Pathalias works it is not
necessary for feed sites to post a new entry right
away, valid paths will get generated.
I've seen a number of these things posted twice
because there was a spelling or typing mistake the
first time. One of them today.
It's a rare month that I don't receive some interm map
updates for some areas. Texas's map co-ordinator in
particular publishes map updates quite frequently. I've
been pleased with the job these under-appreciated
volunteers do.
--
Norman Soley - Data Communications Analyst - Ontario Ministry of the Environment
UUCP: utgpu!ontmoh!------------\ VOICE: +1 416 323 2623
{attcan,utzoo}!lsuc!ncrcan!ontenv!norm
"witty saying not available due to writers strike"haugj@pigs.UUCP (Joe Bob Willie) (08/13/88)
[ notice the followup, let's get the noise down in here ] In article <5910@bigtex.uucp> james@bigtex.UUCP (James Van Artsdalen) writes: >In article <278@execu.UUCP>, dewey@execu.UUCP (Dewey Henize) wrote: >> What is your problem with this? You don't want people to try to keep >> accurate data out there? Its overloading your machine? You can't handle >> the massive amounts of data? > >But I honestly can't conceive of how data from any non-backbone site >(I'll throw tness7 in this catagory even though it probably has enough >downstream feeds to be considered a backbone) could be of interest in >another state, much less another country. I would agree that such >things ought to be posted with distribution limited to those >interested. to start things off, i think this entire discussion started because norman soley was not specific in who he wanted to stop posting map updates. i find the weekly jclyde update to be, well, amusing since i can't figure out who john keeps changing. flatline is another one that i think changes (pardon me eric if i'm falsely accusing you) connections based on moon phase ... who knows. so some of us are into posting update, big deal. last i heard, the usenix groups like talking about erik fair's body hair or shoes or something. i took particular offense at normans remark because he was being so generic in his accusation. there are lowly little texas sites which handle a considerable amount of traffic. i hear tell that bigtex is a big mover in the austin area, and judging from the sudden burst of mail traffic i've seen lately, someone decided rpp386 is a good site for running mail to and from dallas through. let us each decide just how proud we are that we just added our fourth or our fortieth connection. for some people, like john meaders, four or five links is a major feat. others of us are just too egomaniacal to not post. and if the administrators at ihnp4, or uunet or allegra think we are silly people because we don't have 1000+ sites in our map, so be it. -- jfh@rpp386.uucp (The Beach Bum at The Big "D" Home for Wayward Hackers) "Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity" -- Hanlon's Razor
loci@csccat.UUCP (Chuck Brunow) (08/13/88)
In article <5359@rpp386.UUCP> jfh@rpp386.UUCP (The Beach Bum) writes: >In article <670@ontenv.UUCP> soley@ontenv.UUCP (Norman S. Soley) writes: >>Can something be done about the practice some sites have of posting >>their map entry to news.config every time they add or drop local >>connections (I don't know what it is about Texans). Sometimes multiple >>times in a week! > >well, like i said, for some of us this is a world wide sort of >problem. uustat -montenv tells me even you have the potential to >be a bad boy, norman. > >% uustat -montenv >ontenv 07/19-09:51 conversation succeeded > >looks like it's been about three weeks since you paid a visit, so >maybe next time i'll put !can on the distribution line ;-) Is this some "hidden cost" of using a purported "public access" system? Call this bbs and not only can you scan the index but you can get insulted as well. Nice touch. >leave us poor texans alone. you wouldn't want us to grab some >tennessee volunteers and do to canada what we once did to mexico ... And threats! This is funny coming from a guy who claims to be part Canadian and just arrived in Texas a few months ago. I'll bet Tennessee doesn't want to claim him either. Maybe back to New Jersey? >-- What I'm really wondering is what is the relevance of this kind of geographic squabbleing? Can't this kind of humor be better served by e-mail? The original question considered the value of frequent map postings, sometimes several in a week. It brings out the question of usage: do most people use posted updates or do most people rely on the posted maps? My guess is that updates are not of critical importance and serve little useful purpose. It is time-consuming enough to maintain posted maps without adding hand-patched additions and the interested audience can better be served by e-mail. Have I missed something here? Is there a good use for mass distribution of minor updates? Do lots of people use these things? Or are they just disorganized static? -- CLBrunow - ka5sof clb@loci.uucp, loci@csccat.uucp, loci@killer.dallas.tx.us Loci Products, POB 833846-131, Richardson, Texas 75083
dg@lakart.UUCP (David Goodenough) (08/14/88)
Maybe this has been suggested, but if not I'm suggesting it (I'm also gonna
start working on it, but don't hold your breaths). Rather than complain about
the noise generated in news.config, USE IT. We have a shell script that sucks
the data out of comp.mail.maps - well it ought to be possible to do the same
for the "single" entries that hit news.config. Try something like the
following: scan all new articles in news.config for lines of the form:
#N\t.*
When one is found keep copying to some delimiting line (i.e. blank or ----'s)
This gives us the new entry. Now do a
bm xxxx /usr/lib/uucp/uumap/[du].* | bm #N
^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^
Or whereever you keep your maps
where xxxx is the hostname from the first line of the above entry, and you have
where it's supposed to go. Now if we do some creative work with cat -n, grep
and head & tail it should be possible to clip the old entry out, and replace
it with the new. Voila.
Someone can probably do this with a shell script, but I'm going to try it
with a C program. Let battle commence
--
dg@lakart.UUCP - David Goodenough +---+
| +-+-+
....... !harvard!cca!lakart!dg +-+-+ |
+---+pst@comdesign.CDI.COM (Paul Traina) (08/16/88)
From article <2027@csccat.UUCP>, by loci@csccat.UUCP (Chuck Brunow):
...[blah blah... rampant flame about rpp386 & how public public access is]
Oh shut up Chuck. news.admin is not an appropriate forum for bitching
about John. We all know you hate him, so why don't you leave it at that
and give all the rest of us a break.
--
Paul Traina To believe that what is true for
{uunet|pyramid}!comdesign!pst you in your private heart is true
pst@condor.cdi.com for all men, that is genius.