donna@cfa250.harvard.edu (Donna Irwin x57134) (08/17/88)
> From: rja <rja@edison.ge.com> > You haven't read the newsgroup news.annnounce.newuser and it is probably > your own fault . . . [some rude comments deleted] Don't > complain about the documentation before you read it -- RTFM ! The first thing I did when I was told how to get onto Usenet is try to read all the news.* articles. On my system, there isn't anything in news.announce.newuser or news.announce.important. If there is something in those newsgroups on the national system but the info was deleted on the system I'm using, Usenet is at fault -- Usenet shouldn't let local systems to delete the documentation. If the documentation is unavailable to users nationwide, then Usenet is doubly at fault. At any given time, there are probably thousands of users who've been told how to get onto Usenet and nothing else. And flaming (rather, charbroiling) people for doing their best to learn about a rather disorganized computer network seems childish to me. It's as if what you really want is to establish a high priesthood of the Church of Usenet and brand all who come after you as heretics. Perhaps your comments should be posted to another newsgroup, religion.comp.usenet. Allison Bell, using Donna's terminal
rja@edison.GE.COM (rja) (08/18/88)
In article <1062@cfa214.cfa250.harvard.edu>, donna@cfa250.harvard.edu (Donna Irwin x57134) writes: > > From: rja <rja@edison.ge.com> > > > You haven't read the newsgroup news.annnounce.newuser and it is probably > > your own fault . . . [some rude comments deleted] Don't > > complain about the documentation before you read it -- RTFM ! (stuff deleted) > Allison Bell, using Donna's terminal Either Allison deliberately edited the quote from my mail to change the meaning OR my mail to Allison was mangled en route. I actually placed equal blame on Allison and the news admin at that site; the latter is probably overworked and underpaid. In any event posting to a worldwide network asking for help on using the net at that local site with unknown configuration BEFORE asking for help from the local system administrators was clearly inappropriate. If the postings are a test of some sort by Allison, the results ought to be interesting. :-)
mhnadel@gryphon.CTS.COM (Miriam Nadel) (08/18/88)
I suspect the problem is that the news software at Alison's site is set up to expire news.announce.newuser fairly quickly so that at midmonth there's nothing there. Administrators might want to think about setting expire so that news.announce.newuser hangs around all month. The idea of a supercede option (which was mentioned some time back) would be nice there as well. Try again around the first of the month (plus a day or two depending on your feeds) and see if it's there. Miriam Nadel -- "I've got a letter from your Minister for Health, Family Planning, Jails and the Arts, you know." -H.R.F.Keating, "The Purloined Parvati" mhnadel@gryphon.CTS.COM <any backbone site>!gryphon!mhnadel
gamiddleton@watmath.waterloo.edu (Guy Middleton) (08/18/88)
In article <1062@cfa214.cfa250.harvard.edu> donna@cfa250.harvard.edu (Donna Irwin x57134) writes: > If there is something in those newsgroups on the national system but the info > was deleted on the system I'm using, Usenet is at fault -- Usenet shouldn't > let local systems to delete the documentation. If the documentation is > unavailable to users nationwide, then Usenet is doubly at fault. Saying "Usenet is at fault" is meaningless, since there is no central Usenet administration. Since it is at best a cooperative of independent sites, one must blame the local administrators for any failure to make users aware of how the net operates. -Guy Middleton, University of Waterloo Institute for Computer Research gamiddleton@math.waterloo.edu
jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM (Joe Buck) (08/18/88)
In article <1062@cfa214.cfa250.harvard.edu> donna@cfa250.harvard.edu (Donna Irwin x57134) writes: >If there is something in those newsgroups on the national system but the info >was deleted on the system I'm using, Usenet is at fault -- Usenet shouldn't >let local systems to delete the documentation. If the documentation is >unavailable to users nationwide, then Usenet is doubly at fault. At >any given time, there are probably thousands of users who've been told >how to get onto Usenet and nothing else. There is no "Usenet" in the sense you describe. Usenet has no central administration and no police force. There is no Usenet corporation or Usenet president or other entity to be at fault. There are a lot of people who work on keeping it running, but their only power over your administrator is peer pressure. Your administrator was provided with software and documentation and receives new articles every month in news.announce.newusers; it is his or her responsibility to educate the local users. -- - Joe Buck {uunet,ucbvax,pyramid,<smart-site>}!epimass.epi.com!jbuck jbuck@epimass.epi.com Old Arpa mailers: jbuck%epimass.epi.com@uunet.uu.net If you leave your fate in the hands of the gods, don't be surprised if they have a few grins at your expense. - Tom Robbins
donna@cfa250.harvard.edu (Donna Irwin x57134) (08/20/88)
From article <20421@watmath.waterloo.edu>, by gamiddleton@watmath.waterloo.edu (Guy Middleton):
> Saying "Usenet is at fault" is meaningless
I'm posting a follow-up to deal with the large number of response
my initial posting has drawn.
The comments I got from other bewildered novices -- one is her
site's system administrator, indicate that my confusion is
far from unique.
I think Usenet is interesting and I recognize that member
sites don't want to make any major, expensive modifications.
However, I'm certain a slight modification could be made which
would help novice users without irritating veterans.
For example: at the top of the ? help directory, why not
include instructions for requesting that the news.announce.newusers
moderators re-post .newusers info? That would be a lot
more productive than telling people they're idiots for not
being able to find what isn't there.
After I posted, the moderator of news.announce.newusers kindly
re-posted the .newusers info. Until then, I knew only what
little I could piece together from news.admin and other
newsgroups. I did not know that Usenet had no central
administration. I did not know that Usenet cost its sites
anything more than the basic overhead of owning computers and
paying for phone lines. I did not know how to mail a message to
someone to get him/her to re-post the .newusers info.
I think blaming system administrators for failure to train users
is almost as silly as blaming this nebulous entity of Usenet
itself. At many large systems, the system administrator may be
someone totally unknown to the novice user.
Allison, using Donna's terminalweemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) (08/20/88)
In article <1070@cfa214.cfa250.harvard.edu>, donna@cfa250 (Donna Irwin x57134) writes: >However, I'm certain a slight modification could be made which >would help novice users without irritating veterans. While you've learned that "blaming Usenet" doesn't make sense, perhaps a software fix is possible: modify expire so that by default it doesn't touch n.a.u. That is, it requires an explicit -nau flag. And Gene can start superseding the articles. ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) (08/20/88)
In article <13498@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes: >[...] And Gene can >start superseding the articles. I've been doing exactly that ever since the feature appeared in the news software. And before anyone suggests it, I put an explicit "Expires" line in the articles I post to news.announce.newusers...if it disappears at a site, it's because the site admin is overriding it. ...of course, that doesn't include the 2 month period this summer when I stopped posting the items and only 3 people noticed. This whole debate may be moot -- the group may not be worth continuing. -- Gene Spafford NSF/Purdue/U of Florida Software Engineering Research Center, Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004 Internet: spaf@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spaf
dewey@execu.UUCP (Dewey Henize) (08/21/88)
In article <4712@medusa.cs.purdue.edu> spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) writes: > >...of course, that doesn't include the 2 month period this >summer when I stopped posting the items and only 3 people >noticed. This whole debate may be moot -- the group may not >be worth continuing. >-- >Gene Spafford >NSF/Purdue/U of Florida Software Engineering Research Center, >Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004 >Internet: spaf@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spaf I have no doubt that there are any number of sites, especially the more established ones, where new users aren't explicitly steered to these documents when they are introduced to the net. Nonetheless Gene, there are also a good number of sites that DO try to encourage folks to read this stuff. For us newer news admins, any and all help is one more step we can use to get caught up. These docs are good ones, even if honored only on occasion. Thanks for publishing them. Dewey -- =============================================================================== | execu!dewey Dewey Henize or juniper!dhenize | | Can you say standard disclaimer? I knew you could. Somehow... | ===============================================================================
bill@carpet.WLK.COM (Bill Kennedy) (08/21/88)
In article <4712@medusa.cs.purdue.edu> spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) writes: >In article <13498@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes: >>[...] And Gene can >>start superseding the articles. [ Spaf's remarks about supercedes and expires ] > >...of course, that doesn't include the 2 month period this >summer when I stopped posting the items and only 3 people >noticed. This whole debate may be moot -- the group may not >be worth continuing. No, I wholeheartedly disagree. Each of the monthly "recordings" is most useful to my site and neighbors because we are frequently acquiring new readers. There's a lot of it but it's worth distributing because of the number of questions it pre-answers and the description of the net culture. Well I'm a guilty party for not having written in to ask where they had gone, but I noticed. In particular I noticed when they were cross posted to groups where they do not normally appear, but I didn't grouse about that either. I vote to keep the "recordings" coming even though no one asked for a vote. I would be curious to know why the diffs are sent out when they just update the old ones to the current versions. Do some sites actually apply the diffs rather than take the newer article? If not, then it seems like they aren't as useful as they might be. If you're going to cut back on the new user articles, P U L E E E Z E don't do it until our annual September rash of new readers. If it keeps just a few from making the annual faux pas (and ensuing RTFM wars), then they are worth every bit of bandwidth. The news groups description is especially useful for setting up a news neighbor because it lets them pick and choose for a partial feed. If they are to be discontinued, please point us to someplace where we can get them so that those of us who want them can have access. -- Bill Kennedy Internet: bill@ssbn.WLK.COM Usenet: { killer | att | rutgers | uunet!bigtex }!ssbn!bill
jfh@rpp386.UUCP (The Beach Bum) (08/21/88)
In article <4712@medusa.cs.purdue.edu> spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) writes: >...of course, that doesn't include the 2 month period this >summer when I stopped posting the items and only 3 people >noticed. This whole debate may be moot -- the group may not >be worth continuing. i'd say that during the summer when all the kiddies are at home, and not on the usenet is about the only time to not post the newuser stuff. the rest of the year when all the freshmen are poised with postnews at the ready is the best time. -- John F. Haugh II +--------- Cute Chocolate Quote --------- HASA, "S" Division | "USENET should not be confused with UUCP: killer!rpp386!jfh | something that matters, like CHOCOLATE" DOMAIN: jfh@rpp386.uucp | -- apologizes to Dennis O'Connor
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (08/22/88)
In article <13498@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes: >a software fix is possible: modify expire so that by default it doesn't >touch n.a.u. That is, it requires an explicit -nau flag. And Gene can >start superseding the articles. Of course, if you run C news (plug plug), selective expiry is trivial to do. (I don't know if 3.0 does the same -- hope so.) -- Intel CPUs are not defective, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology they just act that way. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
gordon@june.cs.washington.edu (Gordon Davisson) (08/22/88)
In article <133@carpet.WLK.COM> bill@carpet.WLK.COM (Bill Kennedy) writes: >I vote to keep the "recordings" coming even though no one asked for a vote. Me too! >I would be curious to know why the diffs are sent out when they just update >the old ones to the current versions. Do some sites actually apply the diffs >rather than take the newer article? If not, then it seems like they aren't >as useful as they might be. Well, I find them useful because I can read them and keep up with what's in the postings without having to re-read the whole thing every time. I'm applying the diffs to the copy in my head, if you like to think of it that way. -- Human: Gordon Davisson ARPA: gordon@june.cs.washington.edu UUCP: {ihnp4,decvax,tektronix}!uw-beaver!uw-june!gordon Bitnet: gordon@uwaphast
mack@inco.UUCP (Dave Mack) (08/22/88)
In article <4712@medusa.cs.purdue.edu> spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) writes: [...] > >...of course, that doesn't include the 2 month period this >summer when I stopped posting the items and only 3 people >noticed. This whole debate may be moot -- the group may not >be worth continuing. NO! Until we have a better system for educating new users, n.a.n is the only mechanism for training them, other than harassing sysadmins. With several new systems coming online every week and several thousand students discovering the net every fall, this is an important mechanism for reducing the chaos level. I agree with Allison and weemba: there should be an automated (dare I say enforced?) mechanism for training the newbies. It should be built into the newsreaders. When someone lights up a newsreader, and no .newsrc exists in their home directory, the software should go into training mode and not leave it until the user has shown at least a rudimentary knowledge of the net. Obviously, there are major logistical problems with this, given the spectrum of news versions and newsreaders out there. I'm willing to attempt to hack a training mechanism into the newsreaders (readnews/vnews, vn, rn; not Gnews, I'm hopeless at Lisp) but I have questions: Is there any point in doing this? Is the idea worthwhile? Is anyone who is more familiar with the software willing to take on the project? Would it be better to try to produce a "merged" newsreader and attempt to get it accepted as the standard, rather than trying to patch all of the existing systems? Are there any major new versions of newsreaders in the works, aside from rn 5.0? C news? 3.0? Should the training consist of a tutorial, or should we go to the extreme of a programmed training system with quizzes? Am I completely insane? I would appreciate any suggestions. -- Dave Mack mack@inco.uu.net
weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) (08/23/88)
In article <2457@inco.UUCP>, mack@inco (Dave Mack) writes: >I agree with Allison and weemba: there should be an automated >(dare I say enforced?) mechanism for training the newbies. The first thing that should be changed is that in the default news configuration, n.a.n should never be expired. Henry stated that C news allows you to set this up. Eric is pretty fast, so I'm sure it will be a feature in 3.0. A patch in 2.11's expire that would only expire n.a.n with an explicit -nanu flag should probably round out most of Usenet. > It >should be built into the newsreaders. When someone lights up a >newsreader, and no .newsrc exists in their home directory, So far, Gnews merely puts n.a.n as their first newsgroup in this situation. > the >software should go into training mode and not leave it until >the user has shown at least a rudimentary knowledge of the >net. I think that's a bit too much. I don't know, really. I think there should be a built-in guide to Usenet for beginners *built into the newsreader*. One thing I've suggested to Gene Spafford was that the Message-ID's for n.a.n articles be standardized in an algorithmically determinable way. For example, the List of Active Newsgroups, Aug '88, would be in article <LoAN.8.88@purdue.edu>. This would let newsreading soft- ware get easily at these articles at user request, say via some ob- vious menu. Gnews, being part of Emacs, has its manual available on-line, and I've added Gnews commands to access various chapters of the manual directly. It would be easy to put in even more. >Obviously, there are major logistical problems with this, given >the spectrum of news versions and newsreaders out there. I don't think it needs to be that difficult, if the bulk of the effort is in separate text files. In my own Gnews manual, I've put in some little comments here and there, nothing profound. For example, there's a command for changing the ">" prefix for a region to something else in Gnews, about which I say: |`C-c >' | `reply->-replace' | |Most sites have what is called the "50% rule". Articles must have |more than 50% unindented lines. Since indentation in this situation is |defined crudely---on purpose---as just a line beginning with a `>', it |is very easy to get around. [...] | |The commonly seen practice of adding "filler" lines should be avoided. >Should the training consist of a tutorial, or should we go to >the extreme of a programmed training system with quizzes? Don't ask me. >Am I completely insane? Probably. Aren't we all. ucbvax!garnet!weemba Matthew P Wiener/Brahms Gang/Berkeley CA 94720
mack@inco.UUCP (Dave Mack) (08/23/88)
In article <13546@agate.BERKELEY.EDU> weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu (Obnoxious Math Grad Student) writes: >In article <2457@inco.UUCP>, mack@inco (Dave Mack) writes: >> It >>should be built into the newsreaders. When someone lights up a >>newsreader, and no .newsrc exists in their home directory, > >So far, Gnews merely puts n.a.n as their first newsgroup in this >situation. > >> the >>software should go into training mode and not leave it until >>the user has shown at least a rudimentary knowledge of the >>net. > >I think that's a bit too much. I don't know, really. I think there >should be a built-in guide to Usenet for beginners *built into the >newsreader*. My wording may have been a bit too strong there. The minimum training system would display a text file containing a brief description of Usenet and information on how to get started. A slightly modified version of Chuq von Rospach's Usenet Primer would probably suffice. >One thing I've suggested to Gene Spafford was that the Message-ID's >for n.a.n articles be standardized in an algorithmically determinable >way. For example, the List of Active Newsgroups, Aug '88, would be >in article <LoAN.8.88@purdue.edu>. This would let newsreading soft- >ware get easily at these articles at user request, say via some ob- >vious menu. > >Gnews, being part of Emacs, has its manual available on-line, and I've >added Gnews commands to access various chapters of the manual directly. >It would be easy to put in even more. The problem is that many of the new users are barely computer literate. They need bootstrap information. I assume that most users will start posting long before they figure out how to use Emacs/Gnews. Gnews is a fine newsreader, but it's not for the novice. -- Dave Mack mack@inco.uu.net
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (08/23/88)
In article <2457@inco.UUCP> mack@inco.UUCP (Dave Mack) writes: >Are there any major new versions of newsreaders in the works, >aside from rn 5.0? C news? 3.0? C News has not touched the news readers -- our distribution includes the simple Australian readnews and rn, which we think cover naive and serious users (respectively) fairly well. We have neither desire nor intent to hack readers. I believe 3.0 does include reimplemented readers, though. -- Intel CPUs are not defective, | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology they just act that way. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
eric@snark.UUCP (Eric S. Raymond) (08/23/88)
In article <13546@agate.berkeley.edu>, weemba@garnet.berkeley.edu writes: > The first thing that should be changed is that in the default news > configuration, n.a.n should never be expired. Henry stated that > C news allows you to set this up. Eric is pretty fast, so I'm sure > it will be a feature in 3.0. It's done -- all that was required was a trivial one-line change in the default administration file, adding one that reads news.announce.newuser !v,0 local # make this nonvolatile and permanent How's that for service? :-) -- Eric S. Raymond (the mad mastermind of TMN-Netnews) UUCP: ..!{uunet,att,rutgers!vu-vlsi}!snark!eric @nets: eric@snark.UUCP Post: 22 South Warren Avenue, Malvern, PA 19355 Phone: (215)-296-5718
gore@eecs.nwu.edu (Jacob Gore) (08/30/88)
While I agree that news.announce.newusers should stay supported, I'd like
to ask that the "changes to ..." articles not be posted there. They are
not useful to really new users, so they clutter up the group for no good
reason. People who want to just track the changes to the articles can see
the diff postings in the other groups that they are cross-posted to now.
Jacob Gore Gore@EECS.NWU.Edu
Northwestern Univ., EECS Dept. {oddjob,gargoyle,att}!nucsrl!goreabrams@bnlux0.bnl.gov (The Ancient Programmer) (08/30/88)
In article <133@carpet.WLK.COM> bill@ssbn.WLK.COM (Bill Kennedy) writes: >I vote to keep the "recordings" coming even though no one asked for a vote. I agree. All of our new users are forced to at least look at news.announce.newusers. >I would be curious to know why the diffs are sent out when they just update >the old ones to the current versions. Do some sites actually apply the diffs I think that the diffs are usefull tools for those of us who have read the articles already and simply wish to see if any significant changes have been made. -- INTERNET: abrams@bnlux0.bnl.gov BITNET: abrams@bnlux0.BITNET UUCP: ...philabs!sbcs!bnlux0!abrams
nate@mipos2.intel.com (Nate Hess) (09/02/88)
In article <606@bnlux0.bnl.gov>, abrams@bnlux0 (The Ancient Programmer) writes: > I think that the diffs are usefull tools for those of us who >have read the articles already and simply wish to see if any >significant changes have been made. Yes, the diffs are useful for that purpose -- I usually read the diffs instead of the original article, myself. However, it doesn't seem to make much sense to cross-post the diff files to news.announce.newusers, but rather just the complete articles. --woodstock -- "What I like is when you're looking and thinking and looking and thinking...and suddenly you wake up." - Hobbes nate@mipos3.intel.com ...!{decwrl|hplabs!oliveb|amd}!intelca!mipos3!nate
dan@ccnysci.UUCP (Dan Schlitt) (09/02/88)
In article <3720009@eecs.nwu.edu> gore@eecs.nwu.edu (Jacob Gore) writes: >.... news.announce.newusers >.... the "changes to ..." articles not be posted there. This is a good idea. For systems with disk space problems the reduced amount in the news group might permit a longer expiration for that group.
spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) (09/03/88)
In article <875@ccnysci.UUCP> dan@ccnysci.UUCP (Dan Schlitt) writes: >In article <3720009@eecs.nwu.edu> gore@eecs.nwu.edu (Jacob Gore) writes: >>.... news.announce.newusers >>.... the "changes to ..." articles not be posted there. > >This is a good idea. >For systems with disk space problems the reduced amount in the news >group might permit a longer expiration for that group. Well, lots of people seem to like to see the "diffs". Can you suggest another group for me to post them to? Maybe I should create a news.announce.oldusers? Seriously, if there is reasonable support for posting the diffs to a different group, I will do that. Until then... -- Gene Spafford NSF/Purdue/U of Florida Software Engineering Research Center, Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004 Internet: spaf@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spaf
NMBCU@CUNYVM.CUNY.EDU (09/15/88)
I think the name of this new group should be: news.announce.newusers.updates
Although a lengthy name, it seems to be the most logical, to me anyway.
Anyone else have any other suggestions.
Nelson