caasnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Clifford Adams) (09/22/88)
Some members of a group do X.
User Y is a member of the group above.
Does not imply:
User Y does X.
Some users of Portal post inappropriately.
User Y is a user of Portal.
Does not imply:
User Y posts inappropriately.
Does a user's site have anything to do with the relevance of
the user's articles (individually, not statistically)?
******
The arguments sound a lot like this:
"I have been on this net for (months/years) and I don't like
the influence Portal has had on the net. There have been a lot of
Portal morons who have disobeyed the rules, and have not shown decent
respect for the purpose of the net. The lousy editors that some
posters use just clutter the net and make it look bad."
"I think we should just ignore what they say. Sysadmins can
also install scripts to keep all Portal postings from the users of
their systems. After all, it is *my* system, and I can keep what I
want on it."
...Which is very similar to arguments often heard earlier (and
still today)...
"I have been in this town for years, and I don't like the
influence {ethnics} have had on the town. There have been a lot of
{ethnic} morons who have disobeyed the rules, and have not shown
decent respect for the traditions of the town. The shabby homes that
some {ethnics} use just clutter the town and make it look bad."
"I think we should just ignore what they say. Local
politicians can keep others from attending meetings of {ethnics}.
After all, it is their job to keep the community looking nice."
******
There are some users of Portal who detract from USENET. There
are also some who benefit the net.
Do you let "From: xxx@cup.portal.com" decide the quality of an
article?
I definitely favor KILL files for individuals, to "remove" a
troublesome person. KILLing a group of people based on a few is
counter to many of the dreams of USENET. Wasn't the Net supposed to
be the "great electronic anarchy", where everyone could speak, without
censorship or repression (at least in alt. groups)? A community where
all can share ideas, speaking the same language (ASCII), without
arbitrary differences like race or gender.
A form of racism has come to USENET. Sites leaving (like
AT&T) will not kill the net. This form of racism (siteism?) might do
so. Some people are in favor of creating a ghetto of those sites
which have a few troublesome people. [The ghetto analogy is
especially apt, as some of the users of Portal are not able to afford
other resources.] Some people have said that the Portal posters are
making the net a giant BBS (Bulletin Board System). In fact, it is
the detractors of Portal who are furthering the trend towards a BBS
environment. These people want to act like the sysadmin of the
USENET, deciding what other people should read. The net should not be
a matter of a few people's opinions.
To repeat, I don't really care what goes on in *your own,
individual,* KILL file. You are free to read what you want. But for
sysadmins to censor the news, or call for cutting off the feed to
Portal, is not what USENET is about. I hope that the net will
continue to grow into a mature electronic community, free from some
of the problems of our current society. Like racism/siteism.
Thank you for reading this opinion.
--
Clifford A. Adams --- "I understand only inasmuch as I become."
ForthLisp Project Programmer (Goal: LISP interpreter in Forth)
caasnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu ...cmcl2!lanl!unm-la!unmvax!nmtsun!caasnsr
(505) 835-6104 | US Mail: Box 2439 Campus Station / Socorro, NM 87801ray@micomvax.UUCP (Ray Dunn) (09/23/88)
In article <1169@nmtsun.nmt.edu> caasnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Clifford Adams) writes: >.... >A form of racism has come to USENET. Sites leaving (like >AT&T) will not kill the net. This form of racism (siteism?) might do so. >.... And thus puts forward an interesting hypothesis. In article <7176@gryphon.CTS.COM> richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: >Whats stupider that yer average Portal (not legally TM, it turns out) >user ? >.... And thus proves it. -- Ray Dunn. | UUCP: ..!philabs!micomvax!ray Philips Electronics Ltd. | TEL : (514) 744-8200 Ext: 2347 600 Dr Frederik Philips Blvd | FAX : (514) 744-6455 St Laurent. Quebec. H4M 2S9 | TLX : 05-824090
oleg@gryphon.CTS.COM (Oleg Kiselev) (09/28/88)
caasnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Clifford Adams) writes: >>A form of racism has come to USENET. Sites leaving (like >>AT&T) will not kill the net. This form of racism (siteism?) might do so. Which is rather stupid, really. Being critical of the whole site, like PORTAL, may influence opinions of the posters on the site, but has not caused sites like GRYPHON to stop propagating PORTAL articles down stream to sites we feed. Tha accusations of "racism" or "siteism", of all things, are nothing byt hysterical rantings. In article <1292@micomvax.UUCP> ray@micomvax.UUCP (Ray Dunn) writes: >And thus puts forward an interesting hypothesis. > richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: > >Whats stupider that yer average Portal (not legally TM, it turns out) > >user ? >And thus proves it. Proves WHAT? That Sexton has a very low opinion of "yer average Portal poster"? That we all knew and expected. What else? That this low opinion will prevent GRYPHON from feeding PORTAL postings to other sites? That somehow, by magic, a user "richard@GRYPHON" will cause PORTAL to fall off the NET? Ray Dunn has been engaged in GRYPHON-bashing for quite a while now. What does that prove? -- Oleg Kiselev "No regrets, no apologies" -- Ronald Reagan (213)337-5230 ARPA: lcc.oleg@seas.ucla.edu, oleg@gryphon.cts.com UUCP:...!ucla-cs!lcc!oleg Copyright 1988 by Oleg Kiselev. All rights reserved. Quoting is allowed only if attributed.
sob@watson.bcm.tmc.edu (Stan Barber) (10/02/88)
In article <1169@nmtsun.nmt.edu> caasnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu (Clifford Adams) writes: > I definitely favor KILL files for individuals, to "remove" a >troublesome person. KILLing a group of people based on a few is >counter to many of the dreams of USENET. Wasn't the Net supposed to >be the "great electronic anarchy", where everyone could speak, without >censorship or repression (at least in alt. groups)? A community where >all can share ideas, speaking the same language (ASCII), without >arbitrary differences like race or gender. > >-- > Clifford A. Adams --- "I understand only inasmuch as I become." > ForthLisp Project Programmer (Goal: LISP interpreter in Forth) > caasnsr@nmtsun.nmt.edu ...cmcl2!lanl!unm-la!unmvax!nmtsun!caasnsr > (505) 835-6104 | US Mail: Box 2439 Campus Station / Socorro, NM 87801 I have always saw USENET as a great electronic community, not an anarchy. Anarchy implies no control. This is not the case. Newsadmins can impose whatever restrictions they choose. Some restrictions affect only the local site. Some can actually affect the net. Within this concept of community is the idea of citizenship. By this, I mean that there is implied responsibility for one's own actions. USENET has attempted to encourage everyone to use this resource responsibly. Some choose to abuse it. Others attempt to deal with this abuse either locally or by encouraging joint actions of a large group of newsadmins. Defining abuse and dealing with it are always sensitive issues, but they must be done for the community to continue to exist. Otherwise, more sites will exit this community for another. I don't disagree with your basic ideas regarding the alt-net. However, USENET remains a product of people and will continue to show all that is good and bad (racism and sexism) about people. To expect otherwise defeats the idea of USENET as a community. I applaude any who continue to encourage people to follow the guidelines that are defined. This encourges responsible usage of this resource. This resonsible use should be the hallmark of USENET. Stan internet: sob@bcm.tmc.edu Baylor College of Medicine Olan uucp: {rice,killer,hoptoad}!academ!sob Barber Opinions expressed are only mine.