karl@triceratops.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) (09/29/88)
I was going to write some mail to the backbone mailing list, to see what the recipients thereof had to say about Gene's recent comments concerning `no news admins read news.admin any more,' especially since I know that *some* do, and I was under the impression that a fair number do. I thought I'd make sure that the addresses still work. [101] [11:51am] tut:/dino0/karl> telnet rutgers.edu smtp Trying... Connected to rutgers.edu. Escape character is '^]'. 220 rutgers.edu Sendmail 5.59/1.15 ready at Thu, 29 Sep 88 11:51:31 EDT vrfy backbone 250 <backbone@arthur.cs.purdue.edu> quit 221 rutgers.edu closing connection Connection closed by foreign host. [102] [11:51am] tut:/dino0/karl> telnet purdue.edu smtp Trying... Connected to purdue.edu. Escape character is '^]'. 220 arthur.cs.purdue.edu Sendmail 5.54/3.16 ready at Thu, 29 Sep 88 10:51:16 EST vrfy backbone 550 backbone... User unknown: Inappropriate ioctl for device quit 221 arthur.cs.purdue.edu closing connection Connection closed by foreign host. [103] [11:52am] tut:/dino0/karl> So much for that idea. I guess I know why the list has had no traffic in the last month. I find it pretty disgusting that managers of heavy-hitting news sites don't read anything in news.*. The relevant comment strikes me that it must be bloody darn hard to manage the news if you don't know what the news `customers' are doing out there, regardless of whether one has to wade through a lot of crap to learn those sorts of facts. I find it similarly disgusting that the alias itself simply fell off the face of the earth without (as far as I can recall) any mention that it would be gone, e.g., `next week, and would someone like to take it over.' If it had been offered, *I* would have taken it over, just to keep the lines of communication open. --Karl
wisner@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Bill Wisner) (09/30/88)
It strikes me that someone should start a new mailing list to replace the defunct backbone list; a "usenet admin" list open to any interested news administrators, not just those at the backbones. Since the thrust seems to be toward decentralization and the backbone has effectively ceased to exist this might work out well. It would also be an alternative to moderating this newsgroup. Or maybe I just need more sleep.
karl@triceratops.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) (09/30/88)
wisner@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Bill Wisner) writes:
It strikes me that someone should start a new mailing list to replace
the defunct backbone list; a "usenet admin" list open to any interested
news administrators, not just those at the backbones.
I'm intending to. But I'm inclined to make direct participation
(i.e., presence in the alias file) limited to news admins who handle a
fairly heavy newsfeed load, while making absolutely sure that the list
is not in any sense `private,' that is, I'll do something like post
summaries of recent traffic every N weeks. That seemed to be one of
the biggest complaints about the old backbone list. It'll probably be
called admin-news@one of my hosts.
I wouldn't want to be managing a mailing list which simply echoes
news.admin. The traffic level would be too severe.
--Karlrsalz@bbn.com (Rich Salz) (10/01/88)
=... someone should start a new mailing list to replace
=the defunct backbone list; a "usenet admin" list open to any interested
=news administrators...
It's called news.admin. Either the door is wide-open and any flaming
bozo can post, or it's a self-selecting "cabal." Either way, you lose.
>Or maybe I just need more sleep.
Nah, just more cynicism.
/rich $alz
--
Please send comp.sources.unix-related mail to rsalz@uunet.uu.net.spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) (10/01/88)
I sent mail to everyone on the backbone mailing list telling them it
was going away unless I got compelling reasons not to delete it.
I didn't get any. That was over 3 months ago.
I deleted the "backbone" list for a number of reasons. First,
it did not reflect the true composition of the sites making up the
backbone. With NNTP and Telebit modems, the true "backbone" is
far larger than we could accomodate in the list. Second, with
the "Balkanization" of the Usenet (to use Erik Fair's terminology),
the role of the backbone was getting somewhat ill-defined. Third,
of the 50 or so people on the list, only about 6 or 7 ever bothered
to comment on things or respond to queries. During the whole
flap over comp.[society.]women, I got only 11 responses to a poll
about how to proceed. A simple majority of 11 is 6; the opinion of
6 people is not a very good weight to use in making decisions for
the Usenet community. That's especially true when some of those
people start threatening rmgroup wars, or express attitudes like
"So what if they're a significant majority -- we're the bakcbone."
I don't think that's a healthy direction for the Usenet.
The original intent of the backbone group was to provide a pool
of experience for helping reconfigure the network, share ideas, and
give advice on directions. After a few incidents where a few people
started making wild suggestions, threats and so on, the backbone
became a kind of symbol of authority for site admins to rally around.
However, with the group growing so large and having such diverse
views, it became almost impossible to reach a consensus view
of what the net should be, thus limiting that role.
Basically, the Usenet has grown out of a "backbone" list and needs
to establish some better directing force.
I agree with the view expressed in an earlier reply -- news.admin
is the place where future such discussions should be held. If admins
want to exchange mail amongts themselves, they can do so easily
enough. In the meantime, let's listen to the concerns and comments
of everyone interested. Isn't that the philosophy of the Usenet
anyhow?
--
Gene Spafford
NSF/Purdue/U of Florida Software Engineering Research Center,
Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004
Internet: spaf@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spafkarl@loquat.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) (10/01/88)
To all: if you're going to read any of this, I ask that you read all
of it.
spaf@cs.purdue.edu writes:
I sent mail to everyone on the backbone mailing list telling them it
was going away unless I got compelling reasons not to delete it.
I didn't get any. That was over 3 months ago.
I remember getting your initial note saying you were debating doing
away with it. I don't recall being told that it would be gone by
thus-and-so a date. That's not to say such mail didn't arrive - there
were problems with mail delivery to me while I was on vacation over
summer which could have caused some lossage.
I do remember some people answering your original comments with some
good thoughts on why not to do so. Whether they would have been
called `compelling reasons' is a personal judgment call, but from what
I remember of it, if it had been me, I would have kept it.
That's especially true when some of those
people start threatening rmgroup wars, or express attitudes like
"So what if they're a significant majority -- we're the bakcbone."
You may resent me saying this (and if so, I apologize in advance), but
I think you are carrying a really large and unhealthy grudge around on
this point.
The original intent of the backbone group was to provide a pool
of experience for helping reconfigure the network, share ideas, and
give advice on directions.
I realize that. That was why I asked that OSU be included in it. I
have been managing news sites of various sizes for 5 of the 6 years
that I've been on the network, and when OSU became so well-connected,
I felt that we were finally getting a chance to return a favor or
three to the network that had been so useful to us. As Mel Pleasant
put it during the argument over c.s.w, I wanted us included because I
wanted us to have a say; and we have become sufficiently
well-connected that our loss of only 1 day's operation about 5 weeks
ago was described by one of our news neighbors as having caused a
`pathological news flow disruption' (or something like that; the exact
words escape me just now). That news neighbor is no lightly-connected
site, either. Hence, there was (and is) a good reason why we should
have some sort of say.
I didn't consider `membership' in the backbone list to give us any
power of any kind - I just considered that it gave us opportunity to
have a say. And I did take that opportunity several (3? 4?) times.
However, with the group growing so large and having such diverse
views, it became almost impossible to reach a consensus view
of what the net should be, thus limiting that role.
The problem with the size of the group was that there was no means by
which to remove people/sites which did not participate actively in the
purposes for which the list existed. I intend to rectify that problem.
Basically, the Usenet has grown out of a "backbone" list and needs
to establish some better directing force.
I agree that it needs a directing force; I disagree that a mechanism
*something like* the backbone list is defunct.
The chaos in news.* is testament to the need. The deepest problem
was, as far as I can see, exactly what you stated in a note earlier
this week - that Usenet administrators, notably those on the old
backbone list, don't keep track of what's going on via news.*, nor any
other means, I suppose. That irritates me greatly: To find that
people running the Usenet at such major hosts just can't seem to be
bothered with the details of what people think of the Usenet. Small
wonder that there was a lot of irritation in the waning months of the
backbone list over arbitrary control of the net by it.
Yes, there's a lot of crap out there; that's the cost of managing a
large node in a huge network. Those who haven't got the time to keep
track of the network should not be in the set of people trying to
provide the intended direction and advice. And I (obviously?) do not
mean merely the technical side of `keeping track of the network,' but
also the social and sort-of-political side as well.
I agree with the view expressed in an earlier reply -- news.admin
is the place where future such discussions should be held. If admins
want to exchange mail amongts themselves, they can do so easily
enough. In the meantime, let's listen to the concerns and comments
of everyone interested. Isn't that the philosophy of the Usenet
anyhow?
I agree *completely* that lots of discussion should take place in
news.admin. For that reason, I oppose moderation of news.admin - I
wish everyone's voice to be heard if they have something to say. And
I am willing to wade through the excess as best I can when I see
overload conditions coming.
However, there are a number of people out there who have been doing
major, significant Usenet management for a long time, whose opinions
and experience can still be used to the net's advantage. These people
ought to have somewhere to discuss ongoing events, and at least
attempt to come up with a consensus which could then be offered to the
net-at-large. This ought to be a place away from the usual totally
noisy news.admin. NOT `private' - but somewhat more quiet, a place to
think more carefully.
Thus, I am recreating the backbone list, but then it's not the
backbone list. I don't even have a decent name for it yet - I will
*not* call it `backbone.' I was thinking of `admin-news,' since
that's what it's about, or possibly `well-connected'; I haven't
decided. Someone suggested `net-direction,' but that implies a
certain power which the list is not expected to have.
The nature of this list will be different from the old backbone list.
Membership will be at the request of those wishing to be involved, as
before. Continued existence in the alias file will be based on the
evidence of ongoing participation, that is, one can be on this list if
one demonstrates with a certain regularity that one is thinking about
the Usenet and contributing to the set of ideas for how to keep it
running. Part of that, in my opinion, is a certain presence in
news.*. Not necessarily all of news.*; just a subset demonstrating
that the EKG and EEG aren't flat. Tracking only news.admin is almost
certainly sufficient, or some other group in which an individual
wishes to `specialize.' Also, I tend to be inclined more to news
admins at sites which operate a substantial number of newsfeeds, since
they invariably understand much better than most leaf node admins I've
known the problems of heavy load, multiple connections, and all those
sorts of problems. A point of importance: I intend to set a policy
for the list of positively no flaming whatever; that one flame
containing obscenities, personal attacks, or general insult of any
kind are grounds for immediate removal. I include that quality
expressly because of the problems that the backbone list caused you
personally, Gene, during the argument over c.s.w. Also, I am emphatic
that I will post periodic (monthly?) summaries of activity in this
list, to emphasize the non-private nature of the list, so that anyone
and everyone who wants to know can be aware of the discussion which
takes place there.
At this time, I wish to formally invite any and all news admins out
there who think they might be interested, who think they have
sufficient knowledge and experience, who can afford to invest the time
and energy in contributing to a forum like this, to become
participants in the list. Drop me a note and I'll get the list
started within a few days.
--Karljfh@rpp386.Dallas.TX.US (The Beach Bum) (10/01/88)
In article <1106@fig.bbn.com> rsalz@bbn.com (Rich Salz) writes: >=... someone should start a new mailing list to replace >=the defunct backbone list; a "usenet admin" list open to any interested >=news administrators... > >It's called news.admin. Either the door is wide-open and any flaming >bozo can post, or it's a self-selecting "cabal." Either way, you lose. My personal complaint with the backbone "cabal" was that the backbone mailing list was not gatewayed on the net. Suprize decisions were handed down without any discussion being present to the rest of the net. The U.S. Constitution managed to implement the congress correctly when it required the congressional record be published. I wouldn't mind a "cabal", I'd just like to know what was going on.
rissa@killer.DALLAS.TX.US (Patricia O Tuama) (10/02/88)
In article <5681@killer.DALLAS.TX.US> wisner@killer.Dallas.TX.US (Bill Wisner) writes: >It strikes me that someone should start a new mailing list to replace >the defunct backbone list; a "usenet admin" list open to any interested >news administrators, not just those at the backbones. Since the thrust >seems to be toward decentralization and the backbone has effectively >ceased to exist this might work out well. It would also be an alternative >to moderating this newsgroup. But, Bill, as you know quite well, the eniac mailing list is now in con- trol of backbone-type things and makes all important decisions about Usenet, such as what's hot and what's not and whether SHEEP are going to be the next running joke. Sit ut est, aut not sit! . Patricia O Tuama Mistress of Eniac
scs@itivax.UUCP (Steve C. Simmons) (10/03/88)
In article <1106@fig.bbn.com> rsalz@bbn.com (Rich Salz) writes: >>... someone should start a new mailing list to replace the defunct backbone >>list; a "usenet admin" list open to any interested news administrators... >It's called news.admin. Either the door is wide-open and any flaming >bozo can post, or it's a self-selecting "cabal." Either way, you lose. I vote for self-selecting cabal. The wide-open flaming bozos seem to already have their group, now one for the self-selected elite. Karl, please add me to the list. (Hey, you said it was self-selecting... :-) ) -- Steve Simmons ...!umix!itivax!scs Industrial Technology Institute, Ann Arbor, MI. "You can't get here from here."
cratz@datack.UUCP (Tony Cratz) (10/04/88)
> The nature of this list will be different from the old backbone list. > Membership will be at the request of those wishing to be involved, as > before. Continued existence in the alias file will be based on the > evidence of ongoing participation, that is, one can be on this list if As with any list to be on the list should always be by request and NOT by APPOINTMENT. There are a number of us that have small feeds that would like to know whats going on even though we may not say anything or it might not effect us the same way. Also we need to provide a way for the small feed new newsadmin to have a means to get on the list. It would be unfair to those people if we made it by vote. I agree that in order to continue to be on the list that when the time come for a vote on the issues that the person(s) give a vote. > wishes to `specialize.' Also, I tend to be inclined more to news > admins at sites which operate a substantial number of newsfeeds, since > they invariably understand much better than most leaf node admins I've > known the problems of heavy load, multiple connections, and all those > sorts of problems. A point of importance: I intend to set a policy > for the list of positively no flaming whatever; that one flame > containing obscenities, personal attacks, or general insult of any > kind are grounds for immediate removal. I include that quality What you are talking about is a form of getting news without out representation. The question is how do we do this? Run for office, the answer is no. Or request to be included, again the answer is no. The question is what is the best method? How about if we set it up so that when we vote our vote is a representation for the number of machine that we have connection with minus the number of machines that has someone else voting for them. What I mean by this is IF site alpha has connections with b, c, d, e, f, g and someone on f & g also votes then alpha will only represent machines alpha, b, c, d, & e. I realize that this require more work at the time that the voting takes place but it also means that each site ONLY get represeneted ONCE and not more than once. After each round of voting has taken place we use a little bit of statistic represent T number of sites out of a larger population. (I hope that I have made myself clear enought for someone else to understand) > personally, Gene, during the argument over c.s.w. Also, I am emphatic > that I will post periodic (monthly?) summaries of activity in this > list, to emphasize the non-private nature of the list, so that anyone > and everyone who wants to know can be aware of the discussion which > takes place there. > Seeing that those on the LIST would be representing the rest of the population we always need to post to let everyone know what we are doing. After all if we are to represent them we need to know what they want and not what I (the big person with the vote) wants. > At this time, I wish to formally invite any and all news admins out > there who think they might be interested, who think they have > sufficient knowledge and experience, who can afford to invest the time > and energy in contributing to a forum like this, to become > participants in the list. Drop me a note and I'll get the list > started within a few days. > Well we should also open it up for those of us that are new to the system (Yes I know that may mean some extra over head but that is also how people learn and there are a number of new people each day that we need to have represented that we might forget about their feelings as we grow older our self) + Our choices are basically to either do it all in public or to do it in + some mailing list. Completely open discussion won't work, for the same + reason that we have governing bodies in our governments. (i.e. + congress here in the US and parliament most everywhere else). That is, + if *everybody* is able to talk then all that will get done is a lot of + shouting, some of it loud from people who want to be heard regardless + of how right or wrong they are. Agree strongly BUT we still must let people know whats going on so that we can represent them correctly. + reasons? Something like the "no-confidence" votes I hear about in + parliamentary countries? A 'no-confidence' vote might be the best thing. Just think about those that we represent, if they don't like what we are doing then we should be voted out of 'office'. + Voting by the populace on who should be in the committee(s)? The vote + being run something like a newsgroup-creation vote is run now. I don't like this idea because those that have new sites might be left in the dark without much of a say of what happens. + More than one committee? (i.e. one centered on rule-making, another + on policy implementation, another on connectivitie, etc) Something + like there being a seperate committee now for moderators, another + for some of the NNTP managers, another for people doing newsgroup + gatewaying in/out of mailing lists and so forth.. Yes more then one committee. We need a central committee for USENET. What I mean by this for example is that the 'moderator committee' can ONLY decide how moderators are going to handle the things that they do and not what newsgroups are created. -- "Looks like plant food to me" Tony Cratz work phone: (408) 982-3585 UUCP: uunet!altnet!datack!cratz Snail: Datachecker, 800 Central Expressway MS 33-36, Santa Clara, Ca 95052
efb@suned1.UUCP (Everett F. Batey II) (10/04/88)
Please, add us to the list for backbone readers .. someday our news-admin will
be wise enough to answer some questions .. thank you ..
--
suned1!efb@elroy.JPL.Nasa.Gov sun!tsunami!suned1!efb efbatey@NSWSES.ARPA
Any statements / opinions made here are mine, alone, not those of the
United States, the DoD, the Navy, the Congress, the Judiciary, nor ... lmb@vsi1.UUCP (Larry Blair) (10/05/88)
It occurs to me that the best way to create a mailing list accessable to all interested USENET admins, while eliminating the problems that plague news.admin, would be to only add usenet@site to the list. That would pretty well restrict the list to real admins. -- Larry Blair ames!vsi1!lmb lmb%vsi1@ames.arc.nasa.gov
spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) (10/06/88)
In article <171@loquat.cis.ohio-state.edu> karl@loquat.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) writes: >I remember getting your initial note saying you were debating doing >away with it. I don't recall being told that it would be gone by >thus-and-so a date. I never posted a deadline. I waited 3 weeks for responses & comments, and none came that weren't of the form "well, you're right, but let's not delete it because we don't have something else to replace it with" -- not a very convincing argument. >You may resent me saying this (and if so, I apologize in advance), but >I think you are carrying a really large and unhealthy grudge around on >this point. Not a grudge (and I don't resent your statement, but I do wish you understood) -- the very threat of such is why the backbone list was doomed. If the group that was supposed to come to consensus and negotiate agreements was breaking down that badly, it obviously was not functioning. The fact that the group couldn't agree on a definition of what an appropriate name was (and most didn't care enough to even respond) also said that the list wasn't working. >.... As Mel Pleasant >put it during the argument over c.s.w, I wanted us included because I >wanted us to have a say; and we have become sufficiently >well-connected that our loss of only 1 day's operation about 5 weeks >ago was described by one of our news neighbors as having caused a >`pathological news flow disruption' (or something like that; the exact >words escape me just now). Yes, but there are probably 100 such sites now. How do they get represented -- especially those that didn't want to get tainted with the name "backbone"? >I didn't consider `membership' in the backbone list to give us any >power of any kind - I just considered that it gave us opportunity to >have a say. And I did take that opportunity several (3? 4?) times. I never had any quibble with your expression of opinions. However, not everyone involved felt as you do, and not everyone outside the list saw the difference either. >The chaos in news.* is testament to the need. The deepest problem >was, as far as I can see, exactly what you stated in a note earlier >this week - that Usenet administrators, notably those on the old >backbone list, don't keep track of what's going on via news.*, nor any >other means, I suppose. That irritates me greatly: To find that >people running the Usenet at such major hosts just can't seem to be >bothered with the details of what people think of the Usenet. How do you propose to reach those people? Force them to read the mailing list you're going to set up? Or are you just going to mail it to them and hope they may read it? But you just said you were going to remove those who don't participate! As as far as people not caring -- that isn't it. But when people like Mark Horton and myself both stop reading much of the news we used to, what does that mean? And what do you do about it? Personally, I think the problem is bigger than any mailing list can solve. There has to be a major *social* change in the Usenet population, and I just don't see that happening. Meanwhile, alternate distributions and mailing lists increase in number as the overload on the traditional Usenet gets worse. Even Bob Webber seems to have tired of it and gone away, and Mark Ethan Smith is trying for a feminist "alt" group instead of the Usenet! I'm concerned about the future of the net, and I don't mean to nay-say your efforts. I encourage you to try another mailing list if you think it will help. I also encourage readers of news.admin to think about the future of the net and its current direction ... and then start some dialog here. -- Gene Spafford NSF/Purdue/U of Florida Software Engineering Research Center, Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004 Internet: spaf@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spaf