karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (12/02/88)
(Note that I have heavily edited the newsgroups line to restrict the discussion to places where it seems to belong) In article <5917@ecsvax.uncecs.edu> skyler@ecsvax.UUCP (Patricia Roberts) writes: >In article <10676@ihlpa.ATT.COM> davidm@ihlpa.ATT.COM (Makowsky) cites an >instance of abusive email. > >It is my guess that most women on the net who have gotten involved in any >substantial debate have received an almost identical piece of mail. > >Perhaps it is not something restricted to women; I don't know. You're right -- it's not something restricted to women, or Jews, or ANY other group. I've been told to "eat %%%% and @@@" more than once on the net via email. If it gets out of hand (only once) I email to the sysadmin of the site which originated the mail. Who knows whether anything was done -- the attacks ceased, and that was all that I wanted accomplished. I'd bet that anyone who takes a controversial stance in public is gonna have a few people say nasty things to their face or behind their back. That's part of the cost of standing up in a crowd and expressing a possibly unpopular opinion -- even given that your opinion is just as valid as the next person's. To turn around and post said email to the net, rather than take it up privately with the people concerned, is rediculous. (IMHO: This time you have to drop the relevance of the word "jewish" in the by-now-often-quoted mail; REMEMBER that Nancy has been involved in a rather vitriolic discussion of late on JUST that subject... if the email came out of the blue to someone who hadn't been involved in the nastyness on the net this would not be the case.) The person who did this should be taken to the task -- but via reasonable means. It is _obvious_ that at least one of these messages is forged -- thus there is NO information content in the headers (or body, for that matter). I'm gonna draw a few conclusions here. Anyone else care to comment on the relavence of these observations? 1) The original flap was about some jokes in rec.humor.funny (which I have read), and ignited a massive flame war in about a dozen newsgroups. 2) Nancy Gould was involved in that flame war; one of the results of that was that someone (or more than one someone) sent her some nasty email. 3) Mr. Makowski takes it upon himself to post the mess to the world at large; email that is of bogus origin (ie: no information content for people to work with -- just more fuel for the fire). 4) Someone (else?) takes it to the general media, in an inflated and distorted form (which is usually how the media gets things). Can anyone besides myself see an intentional pattern of escalation here, rather than an attempt to solve the problem at hand? You people want to solve this? Kill all the darn noise for starters. It makes for interesting reading but doesn't bring any enlightenment. Nancy, Mark, Skyler and others: If you don't like the fire, get the heck out of the boiler room. It is a fact of LIFE that people who speak in public on topics such as these WILL be heckled, ridiculed, and yes, even slammed in a generally obnoxious manner. If I had a nickel for every flame or abusive posting that I have ever read, in email or on the net publically, directed at myself, I would be rich. I suspect most other netters who take "non-mainstream" opinions would as well. -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"
bch@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Byron C. Howes) (12/03/88)
In article <2295@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM(Karl Denninger) writes: >If it gets out of hand (only once) I email to the sysadmin of the site which >originated the mail. Who knows whether anything was done -- the attacks >ceased, and that was all that I wanted accomplished. As a system administrator, I feel this is the most appropriate initial response to abusive email. If a user of a system I am responsible for is sending abusive material, I want to be the first to know about it so I can protect the reputation of my organization and the 600 or so other users who make use of our facilities. Similarly, if a user on one of our systems receives abusive or threatening email I'd want to be the first to know about it so I could trace the problem down and deal with it. Going public and posting the offensive mail breaks more things than it fixes in that it effectively prevents the authorities from doing their job. Further, it stirs already troubled waters to a point where no productive goals can be realized. >Can anyone besides myself see an intentional pattern of escalation here, >rather than an attempt to solve the problem at hand? Yes, and I think it should be cause for concern on all sides of the question. In the name of claiming the moral high ground we are threatening the thing we're trying to preserve. --Byron -- Byron C. Howes Computer Systems Manager bch@uncecs.edu UNC Educational Computing Service
rob@pbhyf.PacBell.COM (Rob Bernardo) (12/03/88)
In article <2295@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM(Karl Denninger) writes:
+Nancy, Mark,
+Skyler and others: If you don't like the fire, get the heck out of the
+ boiler room. It is a fact of LIFE that people who speak
+ in public on topics such as these WILL be heckled,
+ ridiculed, and yes, even slammed in a generally
+ obnoxious manner.
Ouch! This comes close to blaming the victim.
--
Rob Bernardo, Pacific Bell UNIX/C Reusable Code Library
Email: ...![backbone]!pacbell!pbhyf!rob OR rob@pbhyf.PacBell.COM
Office: (415) 823-2417 Room 4E750A, San Ramon Valley Administrative Center
Residence: (415) 827-4301 R Bar JB, Concord, Californiakarl@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Karl Denninger) (12/04/88)
In article <4340@pbhyf.PacBell.COM> rob@pbhyf.PacBell.COM (Rob Bernardo) writes: >In article <2295@ddsw1.MCS.COM> karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM(Karl Denninger) writes: >+Nancy, Mark, >+Skyler and others: If you don't like the fire, get the heck out of the >+ boiler room. It is a fact of LIFE that people who speak >+ in public on topics such as these WILL be heckled, >+ ridiculed, and yes, even slammed in a generally >+ obnoxious manner. > >Ouch! This comes close to blaming the victim. (Oh gawd, quoted out of context again. Ok, here we go! :-) Please read the top part of the article; I am fully in support of taking the person(s) who sent this mail to the task for their actions -- IF they can be positively identified. HOWEVER, at least one of the mail messages is probably untracable (being obviously forged), which immediately brings into question the posters' intent and desired outcome. The xposting to 10+ groups, and the headline group (soc.culture.jewish) makes the intent pretty clear and beyond dispute. I've received mail of this kind before; it's not nice, but I do get it once in a while. Usually it comes right after I say something on the net that really gets to someone -- in other words, I stuck in the knife, and twisted, and the person who was offended followed up with the harsh words. One of the risks of being a public person, in any form, is that your publically-spoken views will be heckled and ridiculed, and you may be as well. Ask Jimmy Carter (Mr. Peanut) or Reagan (Ronny Ray-Gun) about this, or nearly anyone else who advocates a position in public. As a person who has often advocated change of some kind or another since my early school years, I am _WELL VERSED_ in the kinds of harassment that this exposes one to. Those of you would read talk.politics.misc & misc.legal know that I personally support legalization; this stance has garnered me more than one really offensive piece of email, including an indirect threat to take my life! Being public with your opinions and views, and working for change, is NEVER easy. It's almost never risk-free, either. Email on the Usenet is much like a public mailbox -- you can certainly send mail without a return address, and in such an event, you are just as powerless to determine the origin and take action against the perpetrator. I certainly don't _blame_ the victims of this kind of email, no more than I blamed myself when I received similar mail. But I do (and did) recognize that the mail would have NEVER BEEN SENT had I not stuck my 2 cents into the discussion -- and in that sense, YES I did provoke the words that were sent my way. I stuck my head up in the crowd and made a statement -- a rather strong and controversial one at that -- just as Nancy has done, and I received some strong (and very offensive) words in return. No, I won't post the name(s) of the people responsible in my case; I resolved the problem the PROPER way, by taking it to the site admins from where the messages originated. They ceased within 48 hours; as my only desire was to stop the harassment I took no further action and consider the matter closed. (Btw: In case anyone cares, yes I did find the email highly offensive, but hardly worthy of a witch-hunt. If I had been the recipient it would have gotten the 'd' key without further thought, or perhaps a reply to root at the site involved). -- Karl Denninger (karl@ddsw1.MCS.COM, ddsw1!karl) Data: [+1 312 566-8912], Voice: [+1 312 566-8910] Macro Computer Solutions, Inc. "Quality solutions at a fair price"
ray@micomvax.UUCP (Ray Dunn) (12/09/88)
In article <4340@pbhyf.PacBell.COM> rob@pbhyf.PacBell.COM (Rob Bernardo) writes: > >Ouch! This comes close to blaming the victim. >-- No. It is pointing out that under the norms of usenet, there is no "victim" involved. There is no special significance in the fact that the word "jew" was used, or that the recipient was a woman. As I and others have pointed out, everyone who expresses strong views in this forum should be prepared to take the heat, just as in any *public* forum. -- Ray Dunn. | UUCP: ..!philabs!micomvax!ray Philips Electronics Ltd. | TEL : (514) 744-8200 Ext: 2347 600 Dr Frederik Philips Blvd | FAX : (514) 744-6455 St Laurent. Quebec. H4M 2S9 | TLX : 05-824090