dswise@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (01/06/89)
As moderator of comp.lang.sigplan, I did not receive a copy of this base note by Email. It was just called to my attention by a third party. I do not usually read news.admin. ACM is a non-profit organization. SIGPLAN is one of its largest and most active Special Interest Groups, publishing 2054 newsletter pages in FY'88. Needless to say, SIGPLAN loses money on every membership it sells. Moreover, page count is rising and membership dues are falling, so members' value for dues continues to increase. The difference comes from running extraordinarily successful meetings, which generate post-conference proceedings sales. For-profit publishers pay taxes and retain income from post-conference sales. SIGPLAN and its sister societies do not. Mr. Gilmore objects to advertising such an organization. He certainly has that privilege at his site, but Usenet may have something to say about his censoring the newsgroup from his corner of the net. This group was created according to net policy (summary of vote follows), and some of its proponents may suffer from Mr. Gilmore's respect for the vote.
dswise@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (01/06/89)
Newsgroups: news.groups
Subject: comp.lang.sigplan WINS
Expires: November 20, 1988
References:
Sender: dswise@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (David S. Wise)
Reply-To: dswise@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (David S. Wise)
Followup-To:
Distribution: world
Organization: Indiana University, Bloomington
Keywords: ACM org libraries
The results of the comp.lang.sigplan vote (12Oct88-10Nov88) are
233 YES and 52 NO. Thanks to all of you who voted!
Most of the NO votes complained that the group was improperly named; vide infra.
My count excludes responses to addresses other than to the requested
sigplan@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu. Several messages mailed directly to me,
or posted elsewhere, or that did not say YES or NO were not included.
Informally they total 18 YES and 9 NO, but this count is vague.
The official electorate is posted as followup to this note (per protocol).
****begin comment****
Allow me the following philosophical reaction to the vote.
Usenet is a valuable resource, but---like many of our toys---computists won't
manage it for very long, especially if we do not care for it and its readers.
Organizing the "groups" is a non-trivial problem, because the classifications
are useful only if they are descriptive, and if their growth is restrained.
However, the problem is a familiar one; one can even get a degree in it.
Usually the major is called something like "Library Science". Librarians are
fine people, but we have strained their business by creating so much new
knowledge so quickly. On the other hand, they like helping knowledge to grow,
and follow what we do surprisingly well. Take yours to lunch soon.
The groups classification is not perfect; indeed, I suggest a change, below.
On the other hand, we must work within it. I proposed "comp.lang.sigplan"
because it did *not* threaten to drag in thirty-one other SIGs and because it
did *not* extend the "news.announce.conferences" abuse of the "news" root:
"news" Groups concerned with the news network and software themselves.
In short, I picked the classification to avoid problems, so to glean votes.
SIGPLAN is fortunate; it's charter _is_ comp.lang.* (which is very active)
so it has a right to be there---if only because new readers looking for SIGPLAN
issues will think to look there.
Furthermore, this vote indeed followed the rules for forming new groups---
even though there was no call-for-discussion. (SIGPLAN's 10,500 members
trumps a lot of Email.) As we have just seen with the proposals for
comp.sys.next , one might sometimes risk skipping all the unpleasant flaming.
And as we learn while shopping for a car or in the election booth, "You can't
always get what you want, but sometimes, you'll find, you get what you need."
****end comment****
The vote entitles us to the immediate creation of comp.lang.sigplan ,
but I want to use the impact of a lively vote (without on-net discussion)
to petition the net gurus. In the original poll I observed:
"Part of the problem seems to be that my SIGPLAN constituency
does not generally read `news.groups', or other established
group where this proposal might appear. That is,
Usenet does not yet serve the constituency that I represent."
That is why I electioneered in SIGPLAN Notices. The turnout and the
recently successful comp.org.ieee vote seem to support my observation.
Group titles like "comp.lang.*" are subject trees; libraries separate these
from author indices, like "org.ieee.*". In the long run, I would prefer
group names like "org.acm.sigplan" and "org.ieee.microwave" for the
non-profit societies and their subgroups, as they become active on the net.
The present "comp.org" is inappropriate because many readers would not
naturally affiliate themselves with computer-focused societies.
"comp" Topics of interest to both computer professionals and
hobbyists, including topics in computer science, software
source, and information on hardware and software systems.
Similarly "sci.org" is inhospitable to engineers:
"IEEE NEWS GROUP ...
To accommodate the new news group in the present newsnet hierarchy,
the ieee news group will be titled "comp.org.ieee"
As all of us know, IEEE (and in general, EE & CS related activities
have a scope much more broader than that of comp.org.xxxx groups)
has more than 30 societies. In due course, a first level
group ( similar to sci.xxxx ) may be started to accommodate all the
engineering related news groups, so that the IEEE news group can
find a permanent place there. ...
K.R.S. Murthy"
BY THE WAY, do join your professional society---whatever it may be!
Reading net news is only the beginning of the lifelong professional contact
and participation necessary to keep current. (And it has its tax benefits.)
Therefore, I ask that "org" soon be anointed as a new root for moderated groups
to be run by the various societies. So, form "comp.lang.sigplan"
immediately and convert to "org.acm.sigplan" and to "org.ieee" ASAP.
The moderator of comp.lang.sigplan is to be the Vice Chair of ACM's SIGPLAN.
PS: I am willing to crosspost meeting information to news.announce.conferences
:-| if someone can tell me how one moderated group crossposts to another.lear@NET.BIO.NET (Eliot Lear) (01/06/89)
I find your use of the term ``censorship'', rather ironic. That you apply it to John Gilmore merely strengthens the irony.
denny@mcmi.UUCP (Dennis Page) (01/12/89)
In article <33800004@iuvax> dswise@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu writes: >My count excludes responses to addresses other than to the requested >sigplan@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu. Several messages mailed directly to me, >or posted elsewhere, or that did not say YES or NO were not included. >Informally they total 18 YES and 9 NO, but this count is vague. I don't know... I sent you three responses (the 1st and 3rd of which are included below), one for each time you posted your call for votes, and yet I did not appear in your list of "NO" votes. Admittedly, the 3rd does not contain an explicit "NO", but the first and second did. If you want people to send votes to an address which is not where you are posting from, you need to include a "Reply-To:" header. Denny #To: dswise@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu #Subject: Re: SIGPLAN proposes comp.lang.sigplan [No vote] #Newsgroups: news.groups #In-Reply-To: <19800019@iuvax> #Organization: MCMI, Omaha, NE #Date: 14 Oct 88 18:13:44 CDT (Fri) #From: denny@mcmi.UUCP (Dennis Page) # #In article <19800019@iuvax> you write: #>Why is the present `news.conf.announce' unsatisfactory? For the same reason #>that there are separately managed news group at all: one group is too broad #>and its turnover is too rapid for sites with specific interests. # #If I understand "turnover" as you use it, I would point out that the #articles in news.announce.conferences do not expire until their CFP #deadline or actual conference date, as approprite. # #Another group to hold postings that are "lost" in a group which #averages one posting per day is not worthwhile. # #Please register my no vote. # #Denny #To: sigplan@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu #Subject: comp.lang.sigplan - stop already #Newsgroups: news.groups #In-Reply-To: <14732@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> #Organization: MCMI, Omaha, NE #Message-Id: <8811071558.AA03442@mcmi.UUCP> #Date: 7 Nov 88 15:58:24 CST (Mon) #From: denny@mcmi.UUCP (Dennis Page) # #In article <14732@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu> you write: #> **FINAL post: Again it dropped off the net before polling completed.** # #For crying out loud. There was *no* need to post this thing 3 times. #Of course it "dropped off" before the end of the 30 day period. The #time to expiration is controlled on a site by site basis. On my site, #for instance, it expires in 4 days. Everyone has seen your request, #please don't send another copy. # #If you don't understand how the news software functions, how do you #expect to run a moderated news group? -- Good health is merely the slowest rate at which one can die.