jj) (03/29/89)
After having some mail discussion with Greg Woods, I remove my objections to his being the newsgroup list-keeper. My objections to the group removal process stand, but I understand from the mail conversation that my objections seem to be near the final concensus, so we'll see what the "final" results are. I am a bit concerned about the exacting nature of newsgroup creation, because I am able to imagine how to use it to pervert any vote I don't like. I don't intend to do so, but I hold to the idea that if I can see it, so can 1e6 other people, some of whom undoubtedly don't see things my way. I agree that a "creep-proof" process isn't probably possible. -- It's a Small World, After All! *Mail to jj@alice.att.com or alice!jj We're Not Satisfied, At All! *HASA, Athiest Curmudgeon Division Gonna Build One Not So Small *Copyright alice!jj 1989, all rights reserved, except As This Small, Small, World! *transmission by USENET and like free facilities granted.
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (03/29/89)
I have a moderate objection to Greg as 'keeper of the groups' or whatever. He seems to be too much of an activist, and I fear that he may screw stuff up in the name of improving things. I recall I voiced this objection once before when his name came up for some net.post, but there wasn't much response. I guess it doesn't bother other people as much as it does me. If I was going to suggest someone, I'd probably want to draft Henry Spencer or load more work on Gene Spafford. I don't see why the current rules can't just be added to Spaf's periodic postings in news.announce...? -- Peter da Silva, Xenix Support, Ferranti International Controls Corporation. Business: uunet.uu.net!ficc!peter, peter@ficc.uu.net, +1 713 274 5180. Personal: ...!texbell!sugar!peter, peter@sugar.hackercorp.com.
spaf@cs.purdue.edu (Gene Spafford) (03/30/89)
To clarify: I will continue to keep the list of groups. However, I do
not have the time or energy to develop a more formal set of guidelines
(what Greg Woods has been doing), nor do I wish to be involved in
taking/verifying any of the vote-polls that might occur in the future.
I'll keep the list, and I'll add things and delete things to the list
when there seems to be seom consensus to do so, but I don't want to be
the one casting or implementing policy decisions.
--
Gene Spafford
NSF/Purdue/U of Florida Software Engineering Research Center,
Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004
Internet: spaf@cs.purdue.edu uucp: ...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spafchuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (03/30/89)
>I have a moderate objection to Greg as 'keeper of the groups' or whatever.
While I've had disagreements with Greg in the past, I *don't* -- he is, by
far, the most knowledgable person on the net willing to do it. He alsoo has
enough experience on the net to have some idea what's practical and not. If
you can show me a more qualified volunteer, I'll consider it. Good luck. Few
folks (myself included) are willing to deal with the stuff Greg is asking to
handle anymore. Too amny idiots like to take pot shots at anyone willing to
stick their neck out for my tastes...
Chuq Von Rospach -*- Editor,OtherRealms -*- Member SFWA
chuq@apple.com -*- CI$: 73317,635 -*- Delphi: CHUQ -*- Applelink: CHUQ
[This is myself speaking. No company can control my thoughts.]
USENET: N. A self-replicating phage engineered by the phone company to cause
computers to spend large amounts of their owners budget on modem charges.woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) (03/31/89)
In article <3603@ficc.uu.net> peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >If I was going to suggest someone, I'd probably want to draft Henry Spencer >or load more work on Gene Spafford. Spaf WAS doing the guidelines. He has specifically informed me that he is NOT going to do it any more, for reasons of his own. I haven't seen Henry volunteer yet. I would like to point out that I would be keeper of the GUIDELINES only, NOT 'newsgroup keeper'. I wouldn't make any personal judgments about creation of newsgroups. I want to make the guidelines specific enough that there would be no arguments. Either a new group proposal conforms to the guidelines or it doesn't, and it doesn't matter what my personal opinion on that particular group proposal is. As for Henry, as a non-citizen he criticizes the US Government in every article he posts to the net via his signature. I am not objecting to him doing this, I'm just pointing out that he, like me and everyone else, has his own personal opinions on things. I doubt if you are going to find anyone who is unbiased and also cares enough about it to take on the job. If you do, fine. I'll send along what I have so far to someone else if you can find a qualified volunteer that the net likes better than me. --Greg
scs@vax3.iti.org (Steve Simmons) (03/31/89)
In article <1681@ncar.ucar.edu> woods@handies.UCAR.EDU (Greg Woods) writes: >In article <3603@ficc.uu.net> peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >>If I was going to suggest someone, I'd probably want to draft Henry Spencer > > As for Henry, as a non-citizen he criticizes the US Government in every >article he posts to the net via his signature. I am not objecting . . . But you couldn't resist pointing it out, eh? :-) Seriously, tho I may disagree with Henry on a lot of the US stuff I trust him explicitly to watchdog the rules. He understands the difference between opinion (be it his or anybody elses) and the rules. Are you willing, Henry? Steve Simmons Just another midwestern boy scs@vax3.iti.org -- or -- ...!sharkey!itivax!scs "Hey...you *can* get here from here!"
gam@uts.amdahl.com (Gordon Moffett) (03/31/89)
In the referenced article, peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes:
# I have a moderate objection to Greg as 'keeper of the groups' or whatever.
# He seems to be too much of an activist, and I fear that he may screw stuff
# up in the name of improving things.
I agree with you.
# If I was going to suggest someone, I'd probably want to draft Henry Spencer
# or load more work on Gene Spafford.
Hear! Hear!
Those two guys would do the net more good, I think.
But you get the idea.
I'd prefer a more laisses faire approach than I think Greg Woods would
allow for.
--
Gordon A. Moffett gam@uts.amdahl.com
+1 408 746-8287 {ames,sun,uunet,decwrl}!amdahl!gampeter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (03/31/89)
In article <1681@ncar.ucar.edu>, woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) writes: > I would like to point out that I would be keeper of the GUIDELINES only, > NOT 'newsgroup keeper'. Sorry, I misunderstood. Still... > I want to make the guidelines specific enough that there would be no > arguments. A fond desire, but I'm not convinced that it can be done. The current system is specific enough so long as people understand it and follow it. The only problem is that it hasn't been kept up in news.announce so nobody is quite sure what it is. > Either a new group proposal conforms to the guidelines or > it doesn't, and it doesn't matter what my personal opinion on that particular > group proposal is. But as drafter of the guidelines, your opinion does matter. Can I at least ask for a conservative approach? > As for Henry, as a non-citizen Henry is a citizen of Canada. I am a citizen of Australia. I fail to see what the relevence is. The net is not a U.S. dominion. He is, also, a conservative voice on the net. He's unlikely to make any drastic mid-course changes. Like opening up newsgroups for deletion wars. How about maintaining the current rules, without the group deletion rider, for a while at least? See how they work if they're properly distributed. -- Peter da Silva, Xenix Support, Ferranti International Controls Corporation. Business: uunet.uu.net!ficc!peter, peter@ficc.uu.net, +1 713 274 5180. Personal: ...!texbell!sugar!peter, peter@sugar.hackercorp.com.
jeffd@ficc.uu.net (jeff daiell) (03/31/89)
In article <28078@apple.Apple.COM>, chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) writes: > Too amny idiots like to take pot shots at anyone willing to > stick their neck out for my tastes... I don't know why anyone would stick his/her neck out for your tastes anyway! Para un Tejas Libre, Jeff Daiell (Nothing personal, Chuq -- but I couldn't resist!) {|8^)] -- Fiat Justitia, Ruat Caelum
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (04/02/89)
In article <900@itivax.iti.org> scs@vax3.iti.org (Steve Simmons) writes: >... Are you willing, Henry? I'm afraid my answer has to be "no" right now. I've volunteered for too many things in the last year or two, and just now I need to cut down on obligations rather than incurring more. -- Welcome to Mars! Your | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology passport and visa, comrade? | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
woods@ncar.ucar.edu (Greg Woods) (04/03/89)
In article <3638@ficc.uu.net> peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >The current system >is specific enough so long as people understand it and follow it. >The only >problem is that it hasn't been kept up in news.announce so nobody is quite >sure what it is. This is exactly what I am trying to recify. All I am trying to do is formalize what the current practice is. We can discuss what changes should be made to it later. >But as drafter of the guidelines, your opinion does matter. Can I at least >ask for a conservative approach? You don't need to. I planned this all along. >Henry is a citizen of Canada. I am a citizen of Australia. I fail to see what >the relevence is. The net is not a U.S. dominion. You picked out an insignificant part of my entire paragraph, quoted it out of context, and blew it up far beyond anything I actually said. If you read the whole paragraph, all it said was that Henry has his own personal opinions too. He is not without bias, as I'm sure he would admit. This does NOT disqualify him from maintaining the guidelines, but the point is it shouldn't disqualify me, either. >He is, also, a conservative voice on the net. He's unlikely to make any >drastic mid-course changes. Like opening up newsgroups for deletion wars. Neither am I. I don't need the flames and abuse that would surely result. >How about maintaining the current rules, without the group deletion rider, >for a while at least? See how they work if they're properly distributed. If you read the rules, you would note that the "deletion rider" was stated solely as a personal opinion and an opening point for discussion. It is NOT intended to be "official". At least, not until some consensus is reached, which has clearly not happened yet. My apologies if my posting wasn't clear and you misunderstood my intentions as a result. All I intend to do is get some official guidelines for creation in place, and all I want them to be at first is an explicit statement of the rules that are actually being followed in practice now. I do not plan any "drastic mid-course changes", I can assure you of that. --Greg
chuq@Apple.COM (Chuq Von Rospach) (04/04/89)
> You picked out an insignificant part of my entire paragraph, quoted it >out of context, and blew it up far beyond anything I actually said. If you >read the whole paragraph, all it said was that Henry has his own personal >opinions too. He is not without bias, as I'm sure he would admit. This does >NOT disqualify him from maintaining the guidelines, but the point is it >shouldn't disqualify me, either. A great example of why I'm not crazy enough to do what Greg is trying to do -- babysit USENET. Why anyone would want to try to do something -- and have people go scrabbling to jump on their face in payment -- is beyond me. I'd say more, but we just had an earthquake, and I'm going to go somewhere else for a while. Chuq Von Rospach -*- Editor,OtherRealms -*- Member SFWA chuq@apple.com -*- CI$: 73317,635 -*- Delphi: CHUQ -*- Applelink: CHUQ [This is myself speaking. No company can control my thoughts.] USENET: N. A self-replicating phage engineered by the phone company to cause computers to spend large amounts of their owners budget on modem charges.