jessea@dynasys.UUCP ( Sysadmin.) (10/02/89)
It is hard to convey feelings over the net, so I'll say at the beginning that
I am not angry, upset, or anything else along those lines. This will sound
like I am.
Lately, I have been observing a disturbing trend on the net. It seems that
many of the quidelines set up to keep the net intact are becoming violated
with increasing frequency. Huge .sig files, constant flame wars, extreme
rudeness, etc. Everyone (correction - a lot of people) are only interested
in solely what they perceive to be in their short-sighted interest.
I can no longer sit back and watch this extremely useful and fascinating and
sometimes beautiful thing get trashed.
Why two newsgroups about Sun systems? Ah, someone will doubtless say the these
are going to be about two aspects of Sun systems. So what. Is there any
reason that the one newsgroup will NOT suffice. I don't think so. Even if
there is, it doesn't belong in the alt category. Why not just put it in the
rec category, or perhaps soc? Those areas have been created with specific
purposes.
I know there is no governing body in usenet except its sysadmins. So, unless
someone can come up with a pretty good reason why I should have two newsgroups
about Sun systems, I will not permit alt.sys.sun on my system or any systems
that get a feed from me. Rules are there for a purpose. They keep things from
falling apart and letting everyone do whatever they chose. Obey them.
<off soap box> Thanx for putting up with my tirade. :-)
--
Jesse W. Asher
Dynasys (901) 382-1705
6196-1 Macon Rd., Suite 200, Memphis, TN 38134
uunet!dynasys!jessearoy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) (10/05/89)
In <12@dynasys.UUCP> jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher - Sysadmin.) writes: > Why two newsgroups about Sun systems? Ah, someone will doubtless say the > these are going to be about two aspects of Sun systems. The only reason a new group is being proposed is because the old one is broken. It's a moderated group (actually, a mailing list gatewayed as a newsgroup) and the lag between when a message is submitted and when it appears is just plain too long. This has been a chronic problem for as long as I can remember, spanning more than one moderator. It's gotten worse and it's gotten better, but it's never been completely solved. If I have a problem with a Sun system and submit a question to comp.sys.sun/sun-spots, it is often weeks before I see my question come back at me, and if somebody chooses to reply to the list, it can be weeks more until I see the answer. By that time, I've probably forgotten what the question was because I've found some other way to solve the problem or learned to live with it. With unmoderated groups, for example comp.unix-wizards, it is not unusual for me to get a reply to a query within an hour of my posting, and by the end of the day I often have a half-dozen replies, or even more if I've said something really stupid :-( -- Roy Smith, Public Health Research Institute 455 First Avenue, New York, NY 10016 {att,philabs,cmcl2,rutgers,hombre}!phri!roy -or- roy@alanine.phri.nyu.edu "The connector is the network"
bob@MorningStar.Com (Bob Sutterfield) (10/05/89)
In article <12@dynasys.UUCP> jessea@dynasys.UUCP ( Sysadmin.) writes:
Is there any reason that the one newsgroup will NOT suffice. I
don't think so.
Some think that c.s.s has a too-high latency, and those views have
been well represented here. If you don't agree, then don't carry
a.s.s on your machine.
Even if there is, it doesn't belong in the alt category.
There are no rules in alt.* Anything belongs there that anyone wants
to put there.
...unless someone can come up with a pretty good reason why I
should have two newsgroups about Sun systems, I will not permit
alt.sys.sun on my system...
You're welcome to do that, and nobody will have grounds to complain.
You're even welcome not to carry c.s.s, and nobody will have grounds
to complain. What distributions you carry, and what newsgroups in
those distributions, are your own choice and don't affect anyone else.
...or any systems that get a feed from me.
You have no power to do that unless you buy those systems and pay
their administrators' salaries. As always, they don't need to get
your permission to find another feed.
Rules are there for a purpose. They keep things from falling apart
and letting everyone do whatever they chose. Obey them.
Keep chanting this mantra: "There are no rules in alt.*."tadguy@cs.odu.edu (Tad Guy) (10/06/89)
In article <BOB.89Oct5095846@puffer.MorningStar.Com> bob@MorningStar.Com (Bob Sutterfield) writes: In article <12@dynasys.UUCP> jessea@dynasys.UUCP ( Sysadmin.) writes: ...unless someone can come up with a pretty good reason why I should have two newsgroups about Sun systems, I will not permit alt.sys.sun on my system... You're welcome to do that, and nobody will have grounds to complain. You're even welcome not to carry c.s.s, and nobody will have grounds to complain. What distributions you carry, and what newsgroups in those distributions, are your own choice and don't affect anyone else. ...or any systems that get a feed from me. You have no power to do that unless you buy those systems and pay their administrators' salaries. Wrong. He is welcome to not feed a newsgroup to any of his downstream neighbors just as he is welcome to not carry a newsgroup himself. It's his system (to manage), and he can choose what it carries/feeds, regardless of what his downstream neighbors want. Alas, this doesn't have anything to do with Suns... ...tad
tale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) (10/06/89)
In <12@dynasys.UUCP> jessea@dynasys.UUCP ( Sysadmin.) writes: jessea> I will not permit alt.sys.sun on ... any systems that jessea> get a feed from me. In <BOB.89Oct5095846@puffer.MorningStar.Com> bob@MorningStar.Com (Bob Sutterfield) replies: Bob> You have no power to do that unless you buy those systems and pay Bob> their administrators' salaries. In <TADGUY.89Oct5192740@ceawlin.cs.odu.edu> tadguy@cs.odu.edu (Tad Guy) writes: Tad> Wrong. He is welcome to not feed a newsgroup to any of his downstream Tad> neighbors just as he is welcome to not carry a newsgroup himself. Tad> It's his system (to manage), and he can choose what it carries/feeds, Tad> regardless of what his downstream neighbors want. Right, but that's what makes your rebuttal wrong. Bob didn't say he wasn't allowed to restrict what he feeds. He only said that he couldn't really make the final decision about what is allowed on the other machines not in his jurisdiction. For example, our site is the primary feed for Clarkson. If I !alt.sys.sun in my sys file, or otherwise prevent it from being transferred downstream (C News will still transfer articles filed to junk), then I will have pretty effectively removed it from their machine. They can, however, get an alt.sys.sun feed from anyone with whom they set up an agreement, my protestations notwithstanding. -- (setq mail '("tale@pawl.rpi.edu" "tale@itsgw.rpi.edu" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))
bob@MorningStar.Com (Bob Sutterfield) (10/06/89)
In article <TADGUY.89Oct5192740@ceawlin.cs.odu.edu> tadguy@cs.odu.edu (Tad Guy) writes: In article <BOB.89Oct5095846@puffer.MorningStar.Com> bob@MorningStar.Com (Bob Sutterfield) writes: In article <12@dynasys.UUCP> jessea@dynasys.UUCP ( Sysadmin.) writes: ...I will not permit alt.sys.sun on my system or any systems that get a feed from me. You have no power to do that unless you buy those systems and pay their administrators' salaries. Wrong. He is welcome to not feed a newsgroup to any of his downstream neighbors just as he is welcome to not carry a newsgroup himself. It's his system (to manage), and he can choose what it carries/feeds, regardless of what his downstream neighbors want. Right - that's what I said. But he has no control over whether those neighbors decide to remain strictly "downstream", or prefer to establish other feeds so that they can receive a group. Sites that care should establish sufficient redundant connectivity that no single point of failure can cause them grief or make decisions for them. You do it with your power supplies, LAN configurations, ECC memory, and other engineering concerns, right? Why not with news? No one system can control any other, unless perhaps the "upstream" administrator is able to persuade every other administrator in the world to blacklist the "downstream" site in question, and deny them feeds. This approach isn't even working in Europe, but that's a whole nother kettle of fish. Alas, this doesn't have anything to do with Suns... ...which is why the discussion has migrated to news.admin now.
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (10/06/89)
In article <4030@phri.UUCP> roy@phri.UUCP (Roy Smith) writes: > The only reason a new group is being proposed is because the old >one is broken. It's a moderated group (actually, a mailing list gatewayed >as a newsgroup) and the lag between when a message is submitted and when it >appears is just plain too long... Actually, alt.sys.sun may have been a bit premature. The delay situation in comp.sys.sun has improved spectacularly of late. -- Nature is blind; Man is merely | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology shortsighted (and improving). | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
ckd@bu-pub.bu.edu (Christopher Davis) (10/07/89)
N.B.: I added alt.config and removed alt.sys.sun from the newsgroups: line; this isn't particularly relevant to alt.sys.sun per se. On 1 Oct 89 21:57:45 GMT, jessea@dynasys.UUCP ( Sysadmin.) said: Jesse> It is hard to convey feelings over the net, so I'll say at the Jesse> beginning that I am not angry, upset, or anything else along those Jesse> lines. This will sound like I am. Jesse> Lately, I have been observing a disturbing trend on the net. It Jesse> seems that many of the quidelines set up to keep the net intact are Jesse> becoming violated with increasing frequency. Huge .sig files, Jesse> constant flame wars, extreme rudeness, etc. Everyone (correction - Jesse> a lot of people) are only interested in solely what they perceive to Jesse> be in their short-sighted interest. I can no longer sit back and Jesse> watch this extremely useful and fascinating and sometimes beautiful Jesse> thing get trashed. I'm with you so far. Jesse> Why two newsgroups about Sun systems? Ah, someone will doubtless Jesse> say the these are going to be about two aspects of Sun systems. So Jesse> what. Is there any reason that the one newsgroup will NOT suffice. Jesse> I don't think so. Even if there is, it doesn't belong in the alt Jesse> category. Why not just put it in the rec category, or perhaps soc? Jesse> Those areas have been created with specific purposes. True. As was alt--an area where anyone could create a group, "just like the good old days" (liberal smiley insertion here). Jesse> I know there is no governing body in usenet except its sysadmins. Jesse> So, unless someone can come up with a pretty good reason why I Jesse> should have two newsgroups about Sun systems, I will not permit Jesse> alt.sys.sun on my system or any systems that get a feed from me. Jesse> Rules are there for a purpose. They keep things from falling apart Jesse> and letting everyone do whatever they chose. Obey them. You're perfectly within the rules to do that--BECAUSE ALT.* HAS NO RULES! Y'see, you can't complain that alt.sys.sun got created "against the rules" because it doesn't have to follow the rules--it's in alt.all. Follow-ups to alt.config. Jesse> Jesse W. Asher -- Christopher Davis, BU SMG '90 <ckd@bu-pub.bu.edu> <smghy6c@buacca.bitnet> "Any quote short enough to be put in a .signature is too short to be any good."