eli@spdcc.COM (Steve Elias) (11/18/89)
i respectfully request that all sysadms expire the article that our
associate at VLSI (Harish) has posted in misc.misc,misc.invest,alt.fax.
this pyramid stuff makes JJ look like a choirboy.
In article <15389@vlsisj.VLSI.COM> harish@vlsisj.VLSI.COM (Harish balan) writes:
!
!From practic!leadsv!excelan!apple!agate!helios.ee.lbl.gov!nosc!chip!aspaas Wed Nov 15 11:13:38 PST 1989
!
!
!Fellow Debtor: November 13, 1989
!
! The following document is going to sound EXACTLY like a
!mail order con. The fact is that none of us want to get ripped
!by some jerk with nothing else to do but dream these things up.
!BUT - if you will take the 5 minutes it took me to read this,
!you will see that it really can work - it's all based on the
!multiplication factor. Take this week off from Lotto America
!and put it here. Your HONESTY and $5.00 WILL get you those
!computer upgrades you've been wanting for Christmas.......
!
! BIZMAN DAVE THE MODEM SLAVE
! Takoma Park, MD 20912
! Can be reached on the best BBS:
! DC Follies BBS (202) 232-3379
! (Not the Dave mentioned below...)
!
!
!
!Dear Friend,
!
! My name is Dave Rhodes. In September 1988 my car was
!reposessed and the bill collectors were hounding me like you
!wouldn't believe. I was laid off and my unemployment checks
!had run out. The only escape I had from the pressure of
!failure was my Apple computer and my modem. I longed to
!turn my advocation into my vocation.
!
! This January 1989 my family and I went on a ten day
!cruise to the tropics. I bought a Lincoln Town Car for CASH
!in Feburary 1989. I am currently building a home on the
!West Coast of Florida, with a private pool, boat slip, and a
!beautiful view of the bay from my breakfast room table and
!patio. I will never have to work again. Today I am rich! I
!have earned over $400,000.00 (Four Hundred Thousand Dollars)
!to date and will become a millionaire within 4 or 5 months.
!Anyone can do the same. This money making program works
!perfectly every time, 100% of the time. I have NEVER failed
!to earn $50,000.00 or more whenever I wanted. Best of all
!you never have to leave home except to go to your mailbox or
!post office.
!
! In October 1988, I received a letter in the mail
!telling me how I could earn $50,000 dollars or more whenever
!I wanted. I was naturally very skeptical and threw the
!letter on the desk next to my computer. It's funny though,
!when you are desparate, backed into a corner, your mind does
!crazy things. I spent a frustating day looking through the
!want ads for a job with a future. The pickings were sparse
!at best. That night I tried to unwind by booting up my
!Apple computer and calling several bulletin boards. I read
!several of the message posts and than glanced at the letter
!next to the computer. All at once it came to me, I now had
!the key to my dreams.
!
! I realized that with the power of the computer I could
!expand and enhance this money making formula into the most
!unbelievable cash flow generator that has ever been created.
!I substituted the computer bulletion boards in place of the
!post office and electronically did by computer what others
!were doing 100% by mail. Now only a few letters are mailed
!manually. Most of the hard work is speedily downloaded to
!other bulletin boards throughout the world. If you believe
!that someday you deserve that lucky break that you have
!waited for all your life, simply follow the easy
!instructions below. Your dreams will come true.
!
! Sincerely yours,
!
! Dave Rhodes
!
!
!
! INSTRUCTIONS
!
!Follow these instructions EXACTLY, and in 20 to 60 days you
!will have received well over $50,000.00 cash, all yours.
!This program has remained successful because of the honesty
!and integrety of the participants. Please continue its
!success by carefully adhering to the instructions.
!
!Welcome to the world of Mail Order! This little business is
!a little different than most mail order houses. Your product
!is not solid and tangible, but rather a service. You are in
!the business of developing Mailing lists. Many large
!corporations are happy to pay big bucks for quality lists.
! (The money made from the mailing lists are secondary to the
! income which is made from people like yourself requesting
! that they be included in that list.)
!
!
! 1) Immediately mail $1.00 to the first 5 names listed
! below starting at number 1 through number 5. Send cash only
! please (total investment $5.00). Enclose a note with each
! letter stating: "Please add my name to your mailing list."
! (This is a legitimate service that you
! are requesting and you are paying $1.00
! for this service).
!
! 2) Remove the name that appears number 1 on the list.
! Move the other 9 names up one position. (Number 2 will
! become number 1 and number 3 will become number 2, etc.)
! Place your name, address and zip code in the number 10
! position.
!
! 3) With your name in the number 10 spot, upload this file
! to 10 (Ten) separate bulletin boards. You may post it
! to the BBS's message base or to the file section.
! Name it FASTCASH, and use the file description to call
! attention to the great potential this has for all of us.
!
! 4) Within 60 days you will receive over $50,000.00 in
! CASH. Keep a copy of this file for yourself so that you can
! use it again and again whenever you need money. As soon as
! you mail out these letters you are automatically in the mail
! order business and people are sending you $1.00 to be placed
! on your mailing list. This list can than be rented to a list
! broker that can be found in the Yellow Pages for additional
! income on a regular basis. The list will become more
! valuable as it grows in size. This is a service. This is
! perfectly legal. If you have any doubts, refer to Title 18,
! Sec. 1302 & 1341 of the postal lottery laws.
!
! NOTE: Make sure you retain EVERY Name and Address sent
! to you, either on computer or hard copy, but do not
! discard the names and notes they send you. This is
! PROOF that you are truely providing a service and
! should the IRS or some other Government Agency
! question you, you can provide them with this PROOF!
!
! Remember as each post is downloaded and the instructions
! carefully followed, five members will be reimbursed for
! their participation as a List Developer with one dollar
! each. Your name will move up the list geometrically so that
! when your name reaches the number five position you will be
! receiving thousands of dollars in cash.
!
! REMEMBER - THIS PROGRAM FAILS IF YOU ARE NOT HONEST - PLEASE!!
!
!
! 1. S. Alexander 4371 Varnum Pl. N. E.
! Washington, DC.
! 20017
!
! 2. P. Czajko 161 Westway #203
! Greenbelt, MD.
! 20770
!
! 3. Darryl McGinnis P.O. Box 34431
! Phoenix, AZ
! 85067
!
! 4. David Larson 2802 E. Shangri-la Rd.
! Phoenix, AZ
! 85028
!
! 5. Brian A. Miller 10270 Ft. Churchill
! Reno, NV
! 89506
!
! 6. Steve Simmons P.O. Box 91154
! Washington, DC.
! 20090-1154
!
! 7. Clifford Arms P.O. Box 3215
! Arlington, Virginia
! 22204
!
! 8. David Walton 8302 Garland Avenue #2
! Takoma Park, MD
! 20912
!
! 9. Dwayne Aspaas 6718 Luciernaga Place
! La Costa, CA
! 92008
!
! 10. Harish Balan 1235, Wildwood Ave #239
! Sunnyvale, CA
! 94089
!
!
!The following letter was written by a participating member
!in this program.
!A
!
!To Whom It May Concern:
!
! About six months ago I received the enclosed post in
!letter form. I ignored it. I received about five more of
!
!the same letter withIn the next two weeks. I ignored them
!also. Of course, I was tempted to follow through and
!dreamed of making thousands, but I was convinced it was just
!another gimmick and could not possibly work. I was wrong!
!About three weeks later I saw this same letter posted on a
!local bulletion board in Montreal. I liked the idea of
!giving it a try with my computer. I didn't expect much
!because I figured, if other people were as skeptical as I,
!they wouldn't be too quick to part with Five dollars. But,
!I BUY LOTTERY TICKETS WEEKLY IN MY PROVINCE AND HAVE NOTHING
!TO SHOW FOR IT BUT TICKET STUBS! This week I decided to
!LOOK AT THIS AS MY WEEKLY LOTTERY PURCHASE. I addressed the
!envelopes and mailed out one dollar in each as directed.
!Two weeks went by and I didn't recieve anything in the mail.
!The fourth week rolled around and I couldn't believe what
!happened! I can't say I received $50,000, but it was
!definitely well over $35,000! For the first time in ten
!years, I got out of debt. It was great. Of course, it
!didn't take me long to go through my earnings so I am using
!this excellent money opportunity once again. FOLLOW THE
!INSTRUCTIONS AND GET READY TO ENJOY.
!
! PLEASE send a copy of this letter along with the
!enclosed letter so together we can convince people who are
!skeptical that it really works!
!
! Good Luck,
!
! Charles Kust
Path: spdcc!eli
From: eli@spdcc.COM (Steve Elias)
Newsgroups: misc.misc,misc.invest,alt.fax
Subject: pyramid Mailing lists (criminal uses of usenet & fax?)
Keywords: Received recently..interesting
Message-ID: <666@ursa-major.SPDCC.COM!
Date: 18 Nov 89 14:28:26 GMT
References: <15389@vlsisj.VLSI.COM!
Reply-To: eli@ursa-major.spdcc.COM (Steve Elias)
Lines: 13
Xref: spdcc misc.misc:281 misc.invest:472 alt.fax:72
i really hate this gutless kind of money"making" ripoff.
and we had people complaining about "junk fax" !
i'd say that this sort of pyramid scheme is a bigger worry.
to the originator(s) of the posting: please GO AWAY, and enjoy
your money as well as the fact that you have indeed ripped people
off whom you have never met. and don't even thing of trying to use
my email2fax service as a method in your immoral pyramid scheme.
if you don't get the heck off of this network with your pyramid crap,
i'll fax you FIVE, alright. a la Fred G. Sanford.tale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) (11/19/89)
In <667@ursa-major.SPDCC.COM> eli@spdcc.COM (Steve Elias) writes:
Steve> i respectfully request that all sysadms expire the article that our
Steve> associate at VLSI (Harish) has posted in misc.misc,misc.invest,alt.fax.
I respectfully resond, "no". Voltaire's _Essay_on_Tolerance_ springs
to mind. Though I dislike the referenced article very much (in spite
of my empty wallet) I will not censor it.
The problem that does exist, unfortunately, is that the article almost
certainly got to us via networks which have probitions against
transferring this sort of thing; _however_ it was already received and
forwarded by us long before I got wind of it. At this point all we
are doing it is keeping it on our system which is not at all illegal.
Could someone please explain to me the legal implications of this?
Dave
--
(setq mail '("tale@pawl.rpi.edu" "tale@ai.mit.edu" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))pjg@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) (11/19/89)
In <667@ursa-major.SPDCC.COM> Steve Elias writes: i respectfully request that all sysadms expire the article that our associate at VLSI (Harish) has posted in [various places] In article <1989Nov19.004703.16570@rpi.edu>, David C Lawrence responds: I respectfully resond, "no". Voltaire's _Essay_on_Tolerance_ springs to mind. Though I dislike the referenced article very much (in spite of my empty wallet) I will not censor it. to which i say YOW! i zorched the offender here and wish that steve hadn't included the text of it in his posting. if you want to leave it on your system fine, do so. but please don't bring up *censorship* or tolerance or the 1st amendment or any of the rest of that tripe. it *doesn't* apply. but despite that many people will immediately take keyboard in hand and insist loudly that it does apply and that the constitution assures them of rights on usenet that they have nowhere else. if you point out the folly of their ways they will suggest that facts don't matter. as is typical of the zealot and demagogue. -- excess in defense of liberty is no crime -- hitler? nah, some american.
coolidge@brutus.cs.uiuc.edu (John Coolidge) (11/19/89)
In <667@ursa-major.SPDCC.COM> eli@spdcc.COM (Steve Elias) writes:
Steve> i respectfully request that all sysadms expire the article that our
Steve> associate at VLSI (Harish) has posted in misc.misc,misc.invest,alt.fax.
People here got several copies of this pyramid scheme posting via
e-mail as well. What's worse, the sender used follow-the-path
routing to get it here. Our mailer choked passing the mail on
further, choked responding to the original mailer, and dumped
tons of bounced mail on our postmaster's head. This, of course,
caused complaints to be sent off to the sender's postmaster,
thereby making their life more complicated. Depending on the
organizational climate of the company involved, the guilty
party could be severely disciplined.
This is not a laughing matter. If you're thinking of using e-mail
to propagate one of these pyramid schemes, think again. Site admins
don't like it, postmasters don't like it, users don't like it,
and your institution probably doesn't like it (most universities
and corporations don't approve at all, while public access and
personal sites are on a site-by-site basis). Such things may also
violate various and sundry laws and regulations. Please don't mess
up everyone's day, including your own, by sending one of these out.
--John
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
John L. Coolidge Internet:coolidge@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP:uiucdcs!coolidge
Of course I don't speak for the U of I (or anyone else except myself)
Copyright 1989 John L. Coolidge. Copying allowed if (and only if) attributed.
You may redistribute this article if and only if your recipients may as well.
New NNTP connections always available! Send mail if you're interested.tale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) (11/20/89)
In article <1989Nov19.004703.16570@rpi.edu> I wrote:
Dave> I respectfully resond, "no". Voltaire's _Essay_on_Tolerance_ springs
Dave> to mind. Though I dislike the referenced article very much (in spite
Dave> of my empty wallet) I will not censor it.
In <13526@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> pjg@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham):
Paul> i zorched the offender here and wish that steve hadn't included the
Paul> text of it in his posting.
Why do you wish he hadn't included the text of it?
Paul> but please don't bring up *censorship* or tolerance or
Paul> the 1st amendment or any of the rest of that tripe. it *doesn't*
Paul> apply.
A) I used the word "censor" in a manner entirly consistent with the
definitions in both the OED and Webster's Ninth New Collegiate. B) I
didn't name Voltaire's essay. C) The First Amendment is not tripe.
In spite of all that, I agree with you.
All I was saying is that I didn't think it was appropriate to cancel
the message in spite of the fact that I found it objectionable. One
of the users here has already denounced me as being a terrible,
hypocritical human being because I would not remove that article yet
rpi.edu does not carry sci.aquaria. Perhaps they equate to the same
thing in his mind, but they are not the same to me. I don't feel any
burning desire to enumerate the differences here.
One thing to be wary of, though, is that this smacks of the same
cancelling of non-source articles to alt.sources a few months ago. I
find non-source postings in alt.sources objectionable, too, but I would
not partake in the cancelling scheme that Paul Traina implemented. I
respect Steve for presenting this article and asking site admins to
delete it rather than just blithely going off and cancelling it himself.
At this point someone other than the sender might have cancelled it
right out from under me and I wouldn't know it, but I still don't
approve of that.
My original question still stands. If anyone can point out to me what
is fraudulent about that article and why it should be cancelled, from
a legal standpoint, I will. "It's objectionable to me" just doesn't
wash though.
Paul> but despite that many people will immediately take keyboard in
Paul> hand and insist loudly that it does apply and that the constitution
Paul> assures them of rights on usenet that they have nowhere else.
Well, _I_ won't and I assure you that I will dislike it just as much
as you if that happens.
Dave
--
(setq mail '("tale@pawl.rpi.edu" "tale@ai.mit.edu" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))brnstnd@stealth.acf.nyu.edu (Dan Bernstein) (11/20/89)
Chain letters through the mail are most certainly illegal, but I've never heard of a decision on electronic chain letters. I don't think any court in the country accepts evidence from a computer; computer mail is taken as speech, so that the evidence in court is about as reliable as hearsay. Still, I suspect there's enough here to successfully prosecute. Beware. ---Dan
gary@dgcad.SV.DG.COM (Gary Bridgewater) (11/20/89)
In article <1989Nov19.004703.16570@rpi.edu> tale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) writes: >In <667@ursa-major.SPDCC.COM> eli@spdcc.COM (Steve Elias) writes: >Steve> i respectfully request that all sysadms expire the article that our >Steve> associate at VLSI (Harish) has posted in misc.misc,misc.invest,alt.fax. > >I respectfully resond, "no". Voltaire's _Essay_on_Tolerance_ springs >to mind. Though I dislike the referenced article very much (in spite >of my empty wallet) I will not censor it. Let me see if I understand you. A burglar breaks into your house, rifles your valubles and in a burst of chutzpah sits down at your table and makes himself a snack. You return and find him so engaged. Your reaction will be to wax reflective on Voltaire's _Essay_on_Tolerence_ because, after all, he'd already done all the illegal stuff before you got there? What's your address? Chain letters are prohibited by Federal law. Chain posting probably should be as they pass through wires that are regulated by the Feds. Perhaps we need a good test case in which some bozo does some hard time. In any case, I am not a lawyer but I am a sysadmin. I believe chain letter posting of this kind are the lowest form of net abuse (even so called joke posting) and nothing in my extremely liberal outlook prevents me from deleting them the instant I find them - including any followups that quote from them - which in this case are suspiciously complete. Kick the vermin off the net. -- Gary Bridgewater, Data General Corporation, Sunnyvale California gary@proa.sv.dg.com or {amdahl,aeras,amdcad}!dgcad.SV.DG.COM!gary Shaken but not stirred.
sullivan@aqdata.uucp (Michael T. Sullivan) (11/21/89)
A few people have been referring to the "scumbag" posting as a chain letter. A chain letter is just a "pass this on or die" letter. This is a pyramid scheme involving money and it is most certainly illegal. There are no free speech issues involved at all. -- Michael Sullivan uunet!jarthur.uucp!aqdata!sullivan aQdata, Inc. San Dimas, CA
barry@jantor.UUCP (Barry Dunlap KA5KTH) (11/23/89)
In paul's article he is talking about protecting the rights of the first admenment. For paul i ask, is it an abuse of the 1st admenment if one stands up in a full movie house and shouts "FIRE"? People are most likely going to get hurt in this WOLF CRY! Lets keep the trash like this off the net.
tale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) (11/24/89)
In <1229@svx.SV.DG.COM> gary@dgcad.SV.DG.COM (Gary Bridgewater) writes: Gary> Let me see if I understand you. A burglar breaks into your Gary> house, rifles your valubles and in a burst of chutzpah sits down Gary> at your table and makes himself a snack. You return and find Gary> him so engaged. Your reaction will be to wax reflective on Gary> Voltaire's _Essay_on_Tolerence_ because, after all, he'd already Gary> done all the illegal stuff before you got there? What's your Gary> address? Well, you don't understand me. You seem to have come up with this notion that all laws are the same; at least, for the purposes of this analogy. Someone sent me a very informative letter regarding the legality of all this. I mailed him a message back a few days ago asking to cite him but I haven't received anything back, but I just want to put this whole thing behind now. In spite of his very informative letter, I'm not _sure_. What the other person, who started this scheme, said makes sense too. I don't know the law and if I did I probably wouldn't agree with it anyway. My own paranoia, however, is cause enough for me to just get rid of the blasted thing. I don't believe it is a matter of protection via the First Amendment, though. In a way, I am really surprised about how hostile this pyramid letter issue has made some people. Well, not really "surprised", but something still seems psychologically fascinating about it. In <1989Nov20.163715.5628@aqdata.uucp> sullivan@aqdata.uucp (Michael Sullivan): Michael> This is a pyramid scheme involving money and it is most Michael> certainly illegal. Okay, I have some questions still though. I won't argue about them, I'd just like to have some answers. Why is it illegal? (For the hundredth time, I am _not_ supporting them. I don't like them either. There are a lot of things that I don't like that I don't think should be illegal for people to do.) Who ends up getting punished, and how? The person who started it, the people who knowingly propogated it, and/or anyone that has such a letter in their possesion? In <882@jantor.UUCP> barry@jantor.UUCP (Barry Dunlap KA5KTH) writes: Barry> In paul's article he is talking about protecting the rights of Barry> the first admenment. For paul i ask, [...] Actually, Paul's mention of the First Amendment was in reply to the first article I sent, which he interpreted as my saying that this was a free speech issue. He was rebutting a misunderstanding about my article, not trying to bring the pyramid letter under the protection of the Bill of Rights. Speaking of that United States of American (well, people bitch about just saying "American". What am I supposed to say?) document, this pyramid letter and the discussion here in news.groups has not been limited to usa. What do other nations have to say about it? Dave -- (setq mail '("tale@pawl.rpi.edu" "tale@ai.mit.edu" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))
tneff@bfmny0.UU.NET (Tom Neff) (11/27/89)
In article <882@jantor.UUCP> barry@.conmicro.com (Barry Dunlap KA5KTH, Clear Lake Tx) writes: >For paul i ask, is it an abuse of the 1st admenment if one stands up in a >full movie house and shouts "FIRE"? People are most likely going to get >hurt in this WOLF CRY! Lets keep the trash like this off the net. Perhaps the relevant shout would be "FRIE!!" :-) -- Stalinism begins at home. }{ Tom Neff }{ tneff@bfmny0.UU.NET
pjg@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) (11/28/89)
In article <14956@bfmny0.UU.NET>, tneff@bfmny0 (Tom Neff) writes: >In article <882@jantor.UUCP> barry@.conmicro.com >>For paul i ask, is it an abuse of the 1st admenment if one stands up in a > >Perhaps the relevant shout would be "FRIE!!" :-) yow! before anyone else gets in on this barry@.conmicro.com [sic] didn't understand what i was talking about so please refrain from quoting him in a fashion that inverts the meaning of my note. i tried to take this up with barry but some silly program called deliver claims he doesn't exist. no criticism of Tom Neff expressed or implied. -- springtime for hitler and germany
clewis@eci386.uucp (Chris Lewis) (11/29/89)
In article <256C7976.372@rpi.edu> tale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) writes: >Okay, I have some questions still though. I won't argue about them, >I'd just like to have some answers. Why is it illegal? Pyramid letter schemes are a particularly seductive form of fraud, for though a few people at the top may make money, a teeny bit of math will show you that the premise that they're based on won't work for someone a few levels down. And are therefore fraudulent. Very seductive for the naive. Towers of Hanoi anyone? Other (legal) get-rich-quick schemes like lotteries have well defined odds, aren't violating the laws of physics, and are usually regulated by the government, ostensibly, again, to avoid fraud. (BTW: lottery winnings aren't taxable in Canada, so there isn't a revenue incentive for the govt. Alcohol, on the other hand, is entirely different :-() > Who ends up getting punished, and how? >The person who started it, the people who knowingly propogated it, >and/or anyone that has such a letter in their possesion? Good question. I suspect that they try to track them back. Merely being in possession of an unsolicited letter couldn't possibly be a crime. Propagating it would probably just get you a lecture on how stoooooooopid you are. > What do other nations have to say about it? They're strictly illegal here (Canada) too. There seems to be one reported in the news and stamped out every couple of years. -- A fanatic is one who can't change his | Chris Lewis, Elegant Communications Inc. mind and won't change the subject. | {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!lsuc!eci386!clewis [Winston Churchill] | Ferret mailing list moderator.
sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) (11/29/89)
In article <1989Nov28.170119.718@eci386.uucp> clewis@eci386.UUCP (Chris Lewis) writes: >odds, aren't violating the laws of physics, and are usually regulated >by the government, ostensibly, again, to avoid fraud. (BTW: lottery >winnings aren't taxable in Canada, so there isn't a revenue incentive >for the govt. Alcohol, on the other hand, is entirely different :-() Certainly there is. They run them. Or at least own the companies that run them. Ostensibly here in BC the fund's generated go to fund things like sports, culture etc. Seems to me that if they didn't get funded by lotteries they would end up being funded by taxes. Lotteries in Canada are really an alternate form of taxation. A fairly regressive one in that the funds are generally solicted from the types of people who can usually least afford it. And are hyped by slick mega buck advertising campaigns. -- Stuart.Lynne@wimsey.bc.ca ubc-cs!van-bc!sl 604-937-7532(voice) 604-939-4768(fax)
" Maynard) (11/30/89)
In article <13822@eerie.acsu.Buffalo.EDU> pjg@urth.acsu.buffalo.edu (Paul Graham) writes: >yow! before anyone else gets in on this barry@.conmicro.com [sic] didn't >understand what i was talking about so please refrain from quoting him in >a fashion that inverts the meaning of my note. i tried to take this up >with barry but some silly program called deliver claims he doesn't exist. Hopefully, the sys admin at jantor.conmicro.com has fixed that one. If you wish to mail Barry, try barry@jantor.conmicro.com; failing that, use barry%jantor@splut.conmicro.com. I am assuming that that will work with an unmodified smail 2.5 that knows how to reach jantor...If I need to tell it that jantor.conmicro.com is the same as the jantor that it already knows about, how do I do it? splut.conmicro.com is already listed as the gateway for conmicro.com. -- Jay Maynard, EMT-P, K5ZC, PP-ASEL | Never ascribe to malice that which can jay@splut.conmicro.com (eieio)| adequately be explained by stupidity. {attctc,bellcore}!texbell!splut!jay +---------------------------------------- "...when hasn't gibberish been legal C?" -- Tom Horsley, tom@ssd.harris.com
clewis@eci386.uucp (Chris Lewis) (12/02/89)
In article <75@van-bc.UUCP> sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes: >In article <1989Nov28.170119.718@eci386.uucp> clewis@eci386.UUCP (Chris Lewis) writes: >>["get-rich-quick" schemes] are usually regulated >>by the government, ostensibly, again, to avoid fraud. (BTW: lottery >>winnings aren't taxable in Canada, so there isn't a revenue incentive >>for the govt. >Certainly there is. They run them. Or at least own the companies that run >them. Lotteries (and raffles) being legal far predate Government sponsorship (or profit taking for whatever purpose). So, my point still holds. Even now, non-governmental lotteries outnumber (but don't outgross) governmental ones. Generalized gambling (card playing, casinos and the like) is outlawed for a number of reasons, partially because of attitudes such as yours (ye olde "rent money" argument - which I don't intend to denigrate per-se), and partially because it's too damn difficult to monitor, and is *far* too likely to attract the criminal element. Race-track gambling is permitted, inspite of similar "rent money" arguments for the precise reason that it *is* possible to monitor and regulate. And the government gets taxes paid on the profits of the race track (but not the lucky winners...). Of course, certain jurisdictions (eg: Nevada, and some noises being made here) recognize the potential revenue from casinos (and ancillary ones like tourism etc.) as outweighing the other costs. >Ostensibly here in BC the fund's generated go to fund things like >sports, culture etc. Seems to me that if they didn't get funded by lotteries >they would end up being funded by taxes. Or, more likely, not funded at all. -- A fanatic is one who can't change his | Chris Lewis, Elegant Communications Inc mind and won't change the subject. | {uunet!attcan,utzoo}!lsuc!eci386!clewis [Winston Churchill] | Ferret mailing list: eci386!ferret-list | psroff mailing list: eci386!psroff-list
sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) (12/02/89)
In article <1989Dec1.202156.13727@eci386.uucp> clewis@eci386.UUCP (Chris Lewis) writes: >Lotteries (and raffles) being legal far predate Government sponsorship (or >profit taking for whatever purpose). So, my point still holds. > >Even now, non-governmental lotteries outnumber (but don't outgross) governmental >ones. > >Generalized gambling (card playing, casinos and the like) is outlawed for >a number of reasons, partially because of attitudes such as yours (ye olde >"rent money" argument - which I don't intend to denigrate per-se), and partially I have no problem with gambling, I have a problem with the government saying it's illegal to gamble and then setting up lotteries *AND* hyping the hell out of them to raise funds. It's an alternate form of taxation. It certainly isn't gambling. If gambling casino's tried to take the same percentage as the government lotteries people would call them criminals. >Or, more likely, not funded at all. If it's worthwhile the government will find money for it. They find money for things that arn't worthwhile all the time. -- Stuart.Lynne@wimsey.bc.ca ubc-cs!van-bc!sl 604-937-7532(voice) 604-939-4768(fax)
adam@metaware.metaware.com (At these prices, I can't NAME names) (12/06/89)
In article <882@jantor.UUCP> barry@.conmicro.com (Barry Dunlap KA5KTH, Clear Lake Tx) writes: >For paul i ask, is it an abuse of the 1st admenment if one stands up in a >full movie house and shouts "FIRE"? People are most likely going to get >hurt in this WOLF CRY! Lets keep the trash like this off the net. Yes paul is man-handling the first amendment. I would equate his actions not with shouting FIRE in a crowded theater but with shouting "They're making a sequel to 'Benji the Hunted'!". Think of the irresponsibility of it all, barry. -- adam margulies metaware incorporated INTERNET: adam@metaware.com UUCP: uunet!metaware!adam ATT: (408)429-META x3016