rickert@mp.cs.niu.edu (Neil Rickert) (06/13/91)
In article <1991Jun13.141538.21196@oar.net> karl.kleinpaste@osc.edu writes: > >So much for non-notification. Anyone suspecting that their articles >aren't escaping the local feed's gravity well can always attempt a >*.test posting to see what comes back. And if they are not subscribed to any hierarchy containing a test group, all they need do is post something stupid. If they don't receive a few email flames, either their news is not getting out, or their return email address is invalid. -- =*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*=*= Neil W. Rickert, Computer Science <rickert@cs.niu.edu> Northern Illinois Univ. DeKalb, IL 60115 +1-815-753-6940
karl.kleinpaste@osc.edu (06/13/91)
Far too many people want others to solve their problems for them. The
right way to solve any problem is to address it oneself.
mathew@mantis.co.uk writes:
But first they have to somehow find out about the dropping.
So test your ability to reach the known universe:
[52] [10:04am] ashley:/usr/lib/news> fgrep .test newsgroups
alt.test Alternative subnetwork testing.
bit.test Simply for testing.
biz.test Biz newsgroup test messages.
dnet.test
eunet.test EUnet-wide test group.
gnu.gnusenet.test GNU's Not Usenet alternative network testing.
misc.test For testing of network software. Very boring.
oar.test Testing OARnet propogation?
sub.test Fuer Superschachteln und andere wichtige Tests
trial.test Testing of the Trial distribution.
u3b.test 3B Distribution Testing.
unix-pc.test Test group.
vmsnet.test Test messages.
[53] [10:04am] ashley:/usr/lib/news>
Pick one or more; I recommend misc.test with a world distribution.
Auto-responders for *.test the world over will babble happily at you
about your postings, if and when they get them. Lack of response is a
wonderful indicator of failing software. If necessary, you can then
argue with your feed's newsadmin over the issue.
So much for non-notification. Anyone suspecting that their articles
aren't escaping the local feed's gravity well can always attempt a
*.test posting to see what comes back.
--karlmathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) (06/14/91)
karl.kleinpaste@osc.edu writes: > So much for non-notification. Anyone suspecting that their articles > aren't escaping the local feed's gravity well can always attempt a > *.test posting to see what comes back. New here, aren't you? I *DID* try misc.test with worldwide distribution. I got responses from various sites, some in far-away places. Because, of course, there happened to be a path to some of those sites which didn't go via any C News sites. However, large areas of the net didn't get the misc.test message. Of course, I had no way to know this, because I had no way to predict how many responses I ought to have got. Besides, are you really suggesting that every user should post to misc.test periodically, just to make sure some new revision of C News hasn't moved the goalposts and rendered his articles illegal overnight? mathew
brendan@cs.widener.edu (Brendan Kehoe) (06/15/91)
mathew@mantis.co.uk wrote: >karl.kleinpaste@osc.edu writes: >> ... stuff ... > >New here, aren't you? Thump. -- Brendan Kehoe - Widener Sun Network Manager - brendan@cs.widener.edu Widener University in Chester, PA A Bloody Sun-Dec War Zone "Ya know, kitten tacos are really better than anything you've ever tasted before!" "Oh, really." -- Rush Limbaugh
barrett@Daisy.EE.UND.AC.ZA (Alan P Barrett) (06/17/91)
In article <1VgJ46w164w@mantis.co.uk>, mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) writes: > Besides, are you really suggesting that every user should post to misc.test > periodically, just to make sure some new revision of C News hasn't moved the > goalposts and rendered his articles illegal overnight? The goalposts haven't been moved since December 1987, when RFC 1036 was published. (Unless you count the publication in October 1989 of RFC 1123, which updates RFC 822, which is referenced by RFC 1036.) Mathew, I sympathise with you about having your articles dropped without notification, but frankly I wish you would shut up now. While blaming others for your problems might be emotionally satisfying, it is not very productive. I hope that Henry and Geoff will implement a suitable and robust error reporting scheme some time; indeed, I have every confidence that they will. However, that does not alter the fact that any news transport software is primarily concerned with correctly formatted articles. If bad articles are dropped with no more notification than a line in a log file which might or might not be noticed, then that's certainly regrettable, but life can be tough sometimes. --apb Alan Barrett, Dept. of Electronic Eng., Univ. of Natal, Durban, South Africa RFC822: barrett@ee.und.ac.za Bang: m2xenix!quagga!undeed!barrett
mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) (06/17/91)
brendan@cs.widener.edu (Brendan Kehoe) writes: > mathew@mantis.co.uk wrote: > >karl.kleinpaste@osc.edu writes: > >> ... stuff ... > > > >New here, aren't you? > > Thump. I take it that's an expression of disagreement. Perhaps you would like to show me a few of his previous articles on this subject? They don't seem to have reached this site -- bad date lines, perhaps? -- hence my assumption that his foolish posting was due to his jumping into the middle of a discussion he hadn't been following, and my comment to that effect. mathew
billd@fps.com (Bill Davidson) (06/18/91)
In article <1VgJ46w164w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) writes: >karl.kleinpaste@osc.edu writes: >> So much for non-notification. Anyone suspecting that their articles >> aren't escaping the local feed's gravity well can always attempt a >> *.test posting to see what comes back. > >New here, aren't you? Mathew, you must be new or you'd know better. >I *DID* try misc.test with worldwide distribution. I got responses from >various sites, some in far-away places. Because, of course, there happened >to be a path to some of those sites which didn't go via any C News sites. So you weren't really cut off from the net eh? You were just cut off from Cnews sites. All this over something less than the majority of the net? Phhhht. >Besides, are you really suggesting that every user should post to misc.test >periodically, just to make sure some new revision of C News hasn't moved the >goalposts and rendered his articles illegal overnight? No. The news admin should do it. The users can remain oblivious. Too bad that you think the news admin should too. --Bill Davidson
mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) (06/18/91)
barrett@Daisy.EE.UND.AC.ZA (Alan P Barrett) writes: > Mathew, I sympathise with you about having your articles dropped without > notification, but frankly I wish you would shut up now. While blaming > others for your problems might be emotionally satisfying, it is not very > productive. I am not blaming others for the articles being badly formatted. I am saying that responding to an error by throwing away input without telling the user is unacceptable behaviour and should be fixed. You want productive? I've suggested a mechanism for reporting errors. I've discussed it here and also by mail with Henry Spencer. I've offered to do the work myself to implement it. So far, nobody has pointed out any fundamental problems with the method proposed. Of course, now some idiot will say "Well, isn't receiving four billion mail messages a problem?", or will drag some other straw-man out of the grave yet again. mathew
brendan@cs.widener.edu (Brendan Kehoe) (06/18/91)
Tell ya what, mathew .. consult your friendly neighborhood archive
server, get the CNews source, and change whatever you want. Post
the diffs to it, saying that these are your modifications as a
suggestion for the solution to a problem as you see it. People are
then given the opportunity to apply those diffs should they so desire,
or they can stay with the normal CNews, should they so desire.
Or realize that Darwin was right, and that one teeny tiny voice among
many, even if it shouts LOUD and REPEATEDLY, won't forcably change
everyone else's mind.
--
Brendan Kehoe - Widener Sun Network Manager - brendan@cs.widener.edu
Widener University in Chester, PA A Bloody Sun-Dec War Zone
"Ya know, kitten tacos are really better than anything you've ever tasted
before!" "Oh, really." -- Rush Limbaughmathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) (06/19/91)
billd@fps.com (Bill Davidson) writes: > In article <1VgJ46w164w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *H > >I *DID* try misc.test with worldwide distribution. I got responses from > >various sites, some in far-away places. Because, of course, there happened > >to be a path to some of those sites which didn't go via any C News sites. > > So you weren't really cut off from the net eh? You were just cut off > from Cnews sites. All this over something less than the majority of > the net? I was cut off from C News sites, and from sites fed via C News sites. That didn't include the entire net. So I was lucky. The next person might not be so lucky. In fact, there could be people now connected to the net only via a route including a C News site; those people could be having their postings dropped by C News, and they could be completely unaware of it. There's nothing YOU can do to find out whether this is the case. It'll be pure luck if they notice that something is amiss -- and it might be months before they do notice. mathew
gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) (06/19/91)
In article <m82o45w164w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) writes: =brendan@cs.widener.edu (Brendan Kehoe) writes: => mathew@mantis.co.uk wrote: => >karl.kleinpaste@osc.edu writes: => >> ... stuff ... => >New here, aren't you? => Thump. =I take it that's an expression of disagreement. Perhaps you would like to =show me a few of his previous articles on this subject? They don't seem to =have reached this site -- bad date lines, perhaps? -- hence my assumption =that his foolish posting was due to his jumping into the middle of a =discussion he hadn't been following, and my comment to that effect. Karl has been on the net for more than the two years this site has been. One doesn't have to post to follow a discussion. Matthew, try writing a little script that scans your history file for "osc.edu", examines each of the articles found for the string "From: karl.kleinpaste", and returns a count of the articles containing it. The number might suprise you. I've been following this discussion, and this is my first posting in it. Initially, you had a concern--that something was quietly dropping some of your articles. It's been shown that while they are being dropped, there is note made of the dropping. Your continued harping on the matter has gone well beyond useful to annoyingly repetitive, and has now degenerated to flaming. You're in the same position of a motorist who's been accustomed to doing 50 in a 35 zone, and finally got a ticket ("But I've been doing it for years, and got away with it!"). Until you can come up with something useful, like a RFC compliance checker for new postings, drop it. (If you want to write such a checker, I'll bet Henry and Geoff would be glad to let you use parts of the C news code.) Otherwise, expect to see less and less discussion as people add the subject or your to their kill files. -- Gary Heston System Mismanager and technoflunky uunet!sci34hub!gary or My opinions, not theirs. SCI Systems, Inc. gary@sci34hub.sci.com I support drug testing. I believe every public official should be given a shot of sodium pentathol and ask "Which laws have you broken this week?".
dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk (Matthew Farwell) (06/19/91)
In article <eXHs49w164w@mantis.co.uk> Giving C News a *HUG* <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes: >billd@fps.com (Bill Davidson) writes: >> In article <1VgJ46w164w@mantis.co.uk> mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *H >> >I *DID* try misc.test with worldwide distribution. I got responses from >> >various sites, some in far-away places. Because, of course, there happened >> >to be a path to some of those sites which didn't go via any C News sites. >> So you weren't really cut off from the net eh? You were just cut off >> from Cnews sites. All this over something less than the majority of >> the net? > >I was cut off from C News sites, and from sites fed via C News sites. That >didn't include the entire net. So I was lucky. > >The next person might not be so lucky. In fact, there could >be people now connected to the net only via a route including a C News site; >those people could be having their postings dropped by C News, and they could >be completely unaware of it. If this were true, then articles to misc.test wouldn't get out. Dylan. -- Matthew J Farwell: dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk || ...!uunet!ukc!ibmpcug!dylan But you're wrong Steve. You see, its only solitaire.
karl.kleinpaste@osc.edu (06/20/91)
dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk writes: >The next person might not be so lucky. In fact, there could >be people now connected to the net only via a route including a C News site; >those people could be having their postings dropped by C News, and they >could be completely unaware of it. If this were true, then articles to misc.test wouldn't get out. This was why I made the *.test suggestion in the first place, since it was my understanding, possibly erroneous, that the fundamental objection came from Mathew's articles being dropped by his immediate feed site, not sites N hops down the line. --karl
mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) (06/20/91)
dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk (Matthew Farwell) writes: > In article <eXHs49w164w@mantis.co.uk> Giving C News a *HUG* <mathew@mantis.co > > The next person might not be so lucky. In fact, there could > >be people now connected to the net only via a route including a C News site; > >those people could be having their postings dropped by C News, and they coul > >be completely unaware of it. > > If this were true, then articles to misc.test wouldn't get out. Suppose there happens to be a path from your machine to somewhere in California, *not* going via C News. Suppose your path to most other places *is* via one or more C News sites. You can post to misc.test and get replies from sites thousands of miles away. But 90% of the net might not be receiving your postings. And if you're new to the net, you probably have no idea how many replies misc.test ought to net you. Besides, as has been pointed out already, requiring everyone to post to misc.test periodically isn't a very good solution to the problem. mathew
mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) (06/20/91)
gary@sci34hub.sci.com (Gary Heston) writes: > Karl has been on the net for more than the two years this site has been. > > One doesn't have to post to follow a discussion. Indeed. However, his posting made it perfectly clear that he hadn't been following the discussion. > I've been following this discussion, and this is my first posting in > it. Initially, you had a concern--that something was quietly dropping > some of your articles. It's been shown that while they are being dropped, > there is note made of the dropping. Indeed. My only concern is that the note is not somewhere where I can read it. > You're in the same position of a motorist who's been accustomed to doing > 50 in a 35 zone, and finally got a ticket If I had got a ticket (an error report) I wouldn't have complained. mathew
dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk (Matthew Farwell) (06/21/91)
In article <N4Ju41w164w@mantis.co.uk> Giving C News a *HUG* <mathew@mantis.co.uk> writes: >dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk (Matthew Farwell) writes: >> In article <eXHs49w164w@mantis.co.uk> Giving C News a *HUG* <mathew@mantis.co >> > The next person might not be so lucky. In fact, there could >> >be people now connected to the net only via a route including a C News site; >> >those people could be having their postings dropped by C News, and they coul >> >be completely unaware of it. >> If this were true, then articles to misc.test wouldn't get out. >Suppose there happens to be a path from your machine to somewhere in >California, *not* going via C News. Suppose your path to most other places >*is* via one or more C News sites. Umm, thats not what you said. You said 'connected to the net only via a route including a C news site'. That means (taking a completely random example) mantis!ibmpcug!slxsys!ukc!... and this is the one path that mantis has to the net. If you were generating bad articles, then none of those articles would get past us. You didn't say 'most other places' the first time, you said 'only via a route including a C news site'. So therefore for this hypothetical-person-at-the-end-of-the-line, posting articles to misc.test *would* be a valid way of seeing if they were connected. Dylan. -- Matthew J Farwell: dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk || ...!uunet!ukc!ibmpcug!dylan But you're wrong Steve. You see, its only solitaire.
mathew@mantis.co.uk (Giving C News a *HUG*) (06/21/91)
dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk (Matthew Farwell) writes: > In article <N4Ju41w164w@mantis.co.uk> Giving C News a *HUG* <mathew@mantis.co > >dylan@ibmpcug.co.uk (Matthew Farwell) writes: > >> In article <eXHs49w164w@mantis.co.uk> Giving C News a *HUG* <mathew@mantis > >> > The next person might not be so lucky. In fact, there could > >> >be people now connected to the net only via a route including a C News si > >> >those people could be having their postings dropped by C News, and they c > >> >be completely unaware of it. > >> If this were true, then articles to misc.test wouldn't get out. > >Suppose there happens to be a path from your machine to somewhere in > >California, *not* going via C News. Suppose your path to most other places > >*is* via one or more C News sites. > > Umm, thats not what you said. You said 'connected to the net only via a > route including a C news site'. [...] > So therefore for this > hypothetical-person-at-the-end-of-the-line, posting articles to > misc.test *would* be a valid way of seeing if they were connected. Indeed. My purpose above was to explain why misc.test was not generally a valid way of checking for connection. Of course for *some* people it is adequate, I'm not disputing that. mathew