allbery@ncoast.UUCP (01/01/70)
The flame comes first. Type "g@END(FLAME)" from rn to get to the important and rational part. (Actually, I have tried to base the flame on facts as well, rather than opinions, but I am but human and I may have some or all of it wrong.) @BEGIN(FLAME) As quoted from <18322@amdcad.AMD.COM> by phil@amdcad.AMD.COM (Phil Ngai): +--------------- | This isn't a flame so perhaps I will be flamed for it, but I really wm%| want to know. | | Tim, don't you think there is a difference between trying to get | someone to voluntarily leave the network and going over their head to | their boss and having them terminated? Not that I like the brahms gang | but there seems to be a critical difference in methods here. | | It's all very nice for you to flame people from the safety of a | private machine run by one of the most liberal people around but it | seems a little cowardly. I only hope Matthew gets an account with | similar immunity one day. +--------------- The difference lies in the fact that Matthew Weiner has caused problems for more people than just Tim Maroney. (Who deserves a machine run by a liberal sysadmin: ncoast joined the net not long before Tim was thrown off the NCSU machine, and I remember it -- and the widespread complaints about it being possible -- well. Come to think of it, this makes Tim look like the pot calling the kettle black.) On the other hand, to continue the original thread: Tim was thrown off the NCSU machine because he posted an article that the NCSU administration (not necessarily the sysadmins, but the academic admins) disagreed with. Matthew Weiner was thrown off the Berkeley machines because the UCB admins received complaints from people. I strongly suspect that Tim's letter was merely the straw that broke the camel's back: for a while, I was under attack by the Brahms Gang, and *I* was tempted to fire off a note to fair@ucbarpa despite the fact that I'm pretty liberal about freedom of speech (ask a Cleveland modemer about the Great North Communitree if you want proof). And I was far from being the only recipient of Weiner's "freedom of speech", and far from receiving the worst of it. (No, tim@hoptoad wasn't receiving the worst of it either at the time.) I would remind the net of the Brahms Gang's complicity in the atrocious net mismanagement that resulted in fh@mit-eddie losing his account (deserved or not, we still don't have all the facts on that one. I personally suspect that Foothead got the axe because of the Brahms Gang plus the fact that he was forwarding news to/from Rich Rosen, and not because of any actual proof that he was involved in any "shady" net activities). I would also suggest that a tally of messages, subjects, and newsgroups for postings by the Brahms Gang since the beginning of the year would be enlightening. To put it mildly, the ousting of Matthew Weiner from the net was long overdue. Tim@hoptoad has never been as outrageous in his disregard for netiquette and freedom of (others') speech, possibly because his own ousting of a few years ago taught him wisdom and possibly because he is simply more considerate of others. @END(FLAME) I invite the admins at UCB to present the text of Tim's letter to the net. Tim has already authorized this; I don't think Mr. Weiner has demonstrated that he deserves the right to a vote. This has the potential to be a serious net problem, given fh@mit-eddie and Tim's earlier loss of privileges; it is time that the net in general, and its administrators (not just the backbone, but all news administrators and all sysadmins of systems on the Usenet or its linked networks, such as the DOD Internet and the BITNET) in particular, took recognizance of the fact that complaints against Usenet posters and complaints by Usenet posters of prejudice in denial of Usenet access are potential legal and social problems for the Usenet. (It is not unthinkable that Mr. Weiner might sue UCB, although I suspect that it is unlikely, given that there are no legal precedents except that UCB has control over who has access to their computer systems and any services supplied on them.) -- Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc {{harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal}!ncoast!allbery ARPA: necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu Fido: 157/502 MCI: BALLBERY <<ncoast Public Access UNIX: +1 216 781 6201 24hrs. 300/1200/2400 baud>> "Mummy, what's an opinion?"