vixie@palo-alto.DEC.COM (Paul Vixie) (05/28/88)
In article <5954@cup.portal.com> Customer_Portal_Service@cup.portal.com writes: >... call JJ yourself. You can reach him as: > Rob Noha (aka JJ) (phone number deleted) >BTW, we have terminated his account on Portal. You can send him mail >but he'll never get to read it. Was that really nec'y? Does this reflect the policy of Portal Communications? I don't know if you've broken any laws, but you've instantly assured that I would *NEVER* do business with you. JJ was a world-class jerk, who deserves to have hot maple syrup poured down his pants, or much, much worse. However, he does *NOT* deserve to have his home telephone number posted to USENET. This is impropriety of the gravest sort. I suggest you send out a cancel message, and hope that JJ doesn't sue you. Disclaimer: not the opinions of my employer or anyone else but me. -- Paul Vixie Digital Equipment Corporation Work: vixie@dec.com Play: paul@vixie.UUCP Western Research Laboratory uunet!decwrl!vixie uunet!vixie!paul Palo Alto, California, USA +1 415 853 6600 +1 415 864 7013
Customer_Portal_Service@cup.portal.com (05/28/88)
Paul Vixie (vixie@dec.com) writes: >Was that really nec'y? [...] He does *NOT* deserve to have his >home telephone number posted to USENET. This is impropriety of the gravest >sort. First, JJ (aka Rob Noha) used his real name on at least one of his messages. He also provided his address, and is listed with information. We did not provide any information that is not readily available to the general public. A pseudonym on Portal (such as JJ) is a convenience, not a way to hide one's identity. Second, we receive a number of inquiries about JJ. Enquiring minds wanted to know: Where did he go to college? Does he really own a BMW? Are jobs scarce in Nebraska? As you probably know, JJ no longer has an account with Portal. Since people could not ask these questions via mail, it seemed reasonable to provide a way for people to contact him. If you move, the Post Office and the phone company (and your current employer, I bet) will tell callers how to reach you. It seems ironic that Portal gets flamed for permitting JJ to (in our opinion) deliberately abuse the net, then also gets flamed for not protecting him from the consequences of his actions.
vixie@palo-alto.DEC.COM (Paul Vixie) (05/30/88)
In article <6013@cup.portal.com> Customer_Portal_Service@cup.portal.com writes: >First, JJ (aka Rob Noha) used his real name on at least one of his messages. >He also provided his address, and is listed with information. We did not >provide any information that is not readily available to the general >public. A pseudonym on Portal (such as JJ) is a convenience, not a way >to hide one's identity. Understood. As I've pointed out to someone @Portal in e-mail, however, it reflects poorly on Portal's professional image that they supplied the number. I don't know if Portal's user contract states that users' real names and phone numbers can be given out by Portal without specific permission -- if it doesn't, you may still find yourself the target of a complaint. (I would prefer to see Portal's policy change such that no pseudonyms were allowed at all...) >If you move, the Post Office and the phone company (and your current >employer, I bet) will tell callers how to reach you. Actually, no. Employers (at least here in the valley) are taken to court regularly by "disgruntled former employees" who feel that the company's personnel department slandered them unfairly in the process of providing a reference. I think it's both sad and silly, but such are the times. The Post Office won't tell anyone how to reach you unless you specifically file a request. Likewise the phone company. You can sometimes get a court order to release the information, but even that is sometimes not possible. (This probably varies from area to area, but I know what things are like in this regard around here.) Summary: since the jerk was kind enough to post his name and since directory assistance will provide the number, I retract my earlier complaint -- you provided no information that wasn't available without your aid. I thought you had, since you didn't say "this information is already available but we're saving you the trouble of dialing directory assistance." My apologies. >It seems ironic that Portal gets flamed for permitting JJ to (in our >opinion) deliberately abuse the net, then also gets flamed for not >protecting him from the consequences of his actions. I would never ask anyone to protect JJ from the consequences of his actions. He is an asshole and he deserves to suffer. I was angry only because it seemed that you had broken a confidence -- which would have been as wrong as anything JJ did. I guess we're all sick of this issue now, right? Okay, I'll shut up. -- Paul Vixie Digital Equipment Corporation Work: vixie@dec.com Play: paul@vixie.UUCP Western Research Laboratory uunet!decwrl!vixie uunet!vixie!paul Palo Alto, California, USA +1 415 853 6600 +1 415 864 7013
jcs@tarkus.UUCP (John C. Sucilla) (05/31/88)
In article <6013@cup.portal.com> Customer_Portal_Service@cup.portal.com writes: >Paul Vixie (vixie@dec.com) writes: >>Was that really nec'y? [...] He does *NOT* deserve to have his >>home telephone number posted to USENET. This is impropriety of the gravest >>sort. > >If you move, the Post Office and the phone company (and your current >employer, I bet) will tell callers how to reach you. This is not entirely true. Court mail, for some reason unknown to me is *NOT* forwarded even if you leave the Post Office a forwarding address. I speak from experience here, it almost got me in a whole lot of trouble, one time. I agree that publishing #1 bozo's home phone number without his permission was the wrong thing to do. Two wrongs still don't make a right. -- John "C". Sucilla {ihnp4,chinet,ddsw1}!tarkus!jcs You have a better idea? Now's the time..
Ilan@cup.portal.com (06/01/88)
1144.3.284.3 Re: JJ's phone number 5/29/88 02:31 thad@cup.portal.com writes: >Whoa! PORTAL mgt did a service by posting his (JJ's) real name and etc. JJ or Jay Orr or any other HELP requestor is really: ROB NOHA (402)488-2586 Call him. He`ll like it. >The moment I saw that name (Rob Noha) I was instantly reminded of similar >scams, chain letters, and other such garbage that clown posted to several >BBS systems I operate in Silicon Valley. >That guy (Rob Noha) is obviously (my opinion) a con artist to the nth degree. >Noha has been doing similar things for at LEAST 2 years, so his recent >Usenet posting is NOT a first-time "offense". >For those who don't know, PORTAL is one of the few public-access systems to >Usenet (the only other one that comes to mind is The WELL). PORTAL has some >11-20 local telephone lines (lucky for me! :-) and some 50+ incoming Telenet >and PC Pursuit lines (thus permitting access by clients across the USA). In >addition to providing Usenet (and other) access, PORTAL operates private and >public BBS and message areas for numerous corporate and special interest >group clients. >At a flat $10/month, any baud, any time of day, any session duration, PORTAL >is a unique service unmatched by anything else (available to the "public"). >I'm with a multi-million $$$ a year company, and we CANNOT afford our own >Usenet "node", and I and thousands of others NEED the communication facilities >provided to us at a fair price by PORTAL. >PORTAL's credo is "everyone is responsible for their own actions and deeds." >Noha (aka J-J) is obviously a miscreant, one person out of the thousands who >are PORTAL subscribers. From posted statements, HE (Noha) has been punished. >If you are favoring the doctrine of "prior restraint", I suggest you crawl >back to the fantasy world of Orwell's `1984' with their Thought Police, >thoughtcrimes, etc. >Your (and others') beef is with Rob Noha. Thanks to PORTAL Management's >posting, you can contact Noha directly and reduce net bandwidth. >As a satisfied customer of PORTAL, I believe you owe PORTAL Communications >an apology. >Would you have ceased using the system from which you posted your flame had >Noha posted from there? ("If thy hand offends thee, ... " :-) >Thad Floryan (thad@cup.portal.com [or] ...!sun!portal!cup.portal.com!thad) I hope all you net readers read the above, there are MANY more testimonials regarding this guy from reliable sources !!! LET THE BUYER BEWARE !!!! - Ilan Rabinowitz - Ilan@cup.portal.com
ray@micomvax.UUCP (Ray Dunn) (06/04/88)
In article <6013@cup.portal.com> Customer_Portal_Service@cup.portal.com writes: >.... A pseudonym on Portal (such as JJ) is a convenience, not a way >to hide one's identity. Huh? Give me that again? Other than being a convenient way to hide one's identity, what other sort of convenience is it? >It seems ironic that Portal gets flamed for permitting JJ to (in our >opinion) deliberately abuse the net, then also gets flamed for not >protecting him from the consequences of his actions. Last time I looked, two wrongs *still* did not make a right! Your action was not "not protecting him", it was deliberately throwing a customer to the wolves. Now *you* probably think that he should pay the consequences, I know *I* think that he should pay *some* consequences, and probably *everybody* thinks that he should ...., but somehow the behaviour of Portal in this whole affair does not smell too good. The fact is, JJ took advantage of facilities *you* offered him, and which he payed for (?), and which you presumably do not monitor too closely. I even got a Bad Feeling reading all the obviously Low Key specific responses you posted in all the various newsgroups. I don't know why, but I would have felt happier if they had been hands-in-the-air-horror broadcast far and wide! There was something contrived there. Readers: Frankly I don't think any fraud was involved, the guy was just panhandling. My reaction when I saw the posting was concern for the amount of flame traffic it was going to generate, not too much concern over the posting itself - that was trivial to handle, the 'n' key did it, although several times were required - a minor irritant, I must admit. The sanctimonious outpouring from the net.names lived up to expectations! We n'd over more *copies* of the posting in the outcry than were originally posted! Why are we always so surprised when this sort of inevitability happens? The net is *wide open* to such abuses, and sites like Portal's mean that accountability on the part of their users is about nil. They just lose their account - do I hear a faint "Big Deal!" from JJ as he drives away in his supposed BMW? So, if as a community we cannot accept jj.behaviour, then perhaps the accountability should be directed towards the *site*. I do believe that we should question whether *uncontrolled* access to USENET should be allowed by general public-access sites, particularly those who make profits out of that access to USENET. Portal, by deliberately publishing the guy's name and telephone number, have attempted to divert attention which was turning towards *them*. Well, my reaction is - let's take an even closer look at them, and their ilk, on USENET. -- Ray Dunn. | UUCP: ..!{philabs, mnetor}!micomvax!ray Philips Electronics Ltd. | TEL : (514) 744-8200 Ext: 2347 600 Dr Frederik Philips Blvd | FAX : (514) 744-6455 St Laurent. Quebec. H4M 2S9 | TLX : 05-824090
wisner@killer.UUCP (Bill Wisner) (06/06/88)
In article <1098@micomvax.UUCP> ray@micomvax.UUCP (Ray Dunn) writes: >>.... A pseudonym on Portal (such as JJ) is a convenience, not a way >>to hide one's identity. >Huh? Give me that again? Other than being a convenient way to hide one's >identity, what other sort of convenience is it? A great many universities and companies let people choose their own username for their account, right? A great many of these machines have the standard Berkeley utility "chfn," right? Sorry, pal. Portal ain't by no means the only place with pseudonyms. -- Bill Wisner ..!{ames,att,decwrl,ihnp4,mit-eddie,osu-cis}!killer!wisner
ray@micomvax.UUCP (Ray Dunn) (06/10/88)
In article <4370@killer.UUCP> wisner@killer.UUCP (Bill Wisner) writes: >In article <1098@micomvax.UUCP> ray@micomvax.UUCP (Ray Dunn) writes: Portal: >>> A pseudonym on Portal (such as JJ) is a convenience, not a way >>> to hide one's identity. Ray Dunn: >> Huh? Give me that again? Other than being a convenient way to hide one's >>identity, what other sort of convenience is it? Bill Wisner: >Sorry, pal. Portal ain't by no means the only place with pseudonyms. Bill is indeed 100% correct, I know not why he apologizes! It is also 100% a fact that I never suggested for a second that they were. Aha! Perhaps there lies the reason for the apology! (:-). Read it again! I only questioned, and still do, Portal's assertion that a pseudonym is some sort of convenience *other* than to hide one's identity (on *their* system, on *my* system, on *any* system!) -- Ray Dunn. | UUCP: ..!{philabs, mnetor}!micomvax!ray Philips Electronics Ltd. | TEL : (514) 744-8200 Ext: 2347 600 Dr Frederik Philips Blvd | FAX : (514) 744-6455 St Laurent. Quebec. H4M 2S9 | TLX : 05-824090
doug-merritt@cup.portal.com (06/13/88)
Ray Dunn writes: >Read it again! I only questioned, and still do, Portal's assertion that a >pseudonym is some sort of convenience *other* than to hide one's identity >(on *their* system, on *my* system, on *any* system!) I'm on Portal (because it's cheaper than long distance phone calls I used to rely on). Portal provides pseudonym's as a tool. Some users may use them to hide their identity. Others do not. What other purpose could they possibly serve? Well, for brain-damaged reasons, they require me to give them a middle name for my account logon. So by default my name in my postings would be "doug-rands-merritt", which I don't care for. So I'm pleased to use psuedonyms to change it to "doug-merritt". Yep, hiding my identity...until now, no one knew my middle name!!! Other people on the system (most of whom do not use Usenet) use psuedonyms to be "cute", a popular pastime on BBS's. Like "BornBlonde" and "Wizard" and "IBMtoTheEnd" etc etc. In the world of bulletin boards, this use of psuedonyms is more the rule than the exception. It's just part of the culture. A few people misuse it, most do not. A very few, like me, buck the trend on BBS's, and get a reputation for being no fun, or uncreative, for using our real names. I'm sorry to be so negative, but it seems to me that to judge Portal by JJ's postings is naive, narrow minded, and rude. JJ is a fradulent asshole who accomplishes his devious ends on many systems other than Portal. What's that got to do with everyone else??? Maybe the problem is simply lack of clarification: unlike many Usenet sites, Portal is a commercial *bulletin board*, which just happens to be connected to Usenet. It is based on a network of Suns running Unix, but the Unix layer is 100% unavailable to customers. So as far as what is reasonable to provide to their customers, the answer is: BBS-oriented services. And that creates a very different context than the Usenet sites, commercial or not, which provide a Unix interface. Doug -- Doug Merritt ucbvax!sun.com!cup.portal.com!doug-merritt or ucbvax!eris!doug (doug@eris.berkeley.edu) or ucbvax!unisoft!certes!doug
wpohl@hvrunix.UUCP (Walter E. Pohl) (06/14/88)
It's true that the outpouring of complaint propogated more copies of JJ's message than his original message did, but it seems that, according to Portal and the evidence they have, the guy wasn't just panhandling, but the postings were some kind of joke. JJ is probably just as responsible for the outcry as he is for the original post. The response of the net was predictable, and JJ should have realized this would cause a hue and cry. On top of the fact that bit about needing money from college is apparently not true, and his actions become indefensible. Portal isn't unique in the lack of monitering. Here at Haverford, we'renot monitered any more than portal. And I don't see why that is necessarily a bad thing. How often do people run amok with their net.privileges? Not all that often, as far as I can see. There is no special morality that the rest of us gains from being connected with a university or industry. JJ ran amok not because he was a Portal user, but because he was JJ. walt
olapw@olgb1.oliv.co.uk (Tony Walton) (06/17/88)
Ranting deleted..... > JJ was a world-class jerk, who deserves to have hot maple syrup poured down > his pants, or much, much worse. However, he does *NOT* deserve to have his > home telephone number posted to USENET. This is impropriety of the gravest More ranting deleted..... Unless JJ is *very* small he'd have problems living in the modem attached to that number -- Tony Walton, OEM/VAR Division, British Olivetti Ltd., Wellington House, 154-160 Upper Richmond Road, London, England SW15 2FN LONDON, SW15 2FN. Tel: (+44) 1 789 6699 Telefax: (+44) 1 785 6670 Telex:27258 Uucp : { ukc | mcvax!olnl1 | ihnp4!cuuxb | iconet | olhqma } !olgb1!olapw