clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) (12/07/88)
In article <401@hropus.UUCP>, Leonard Oppenheimer writes: > This is not really a followup to the above article, it is > instead the posting to this newsgroup an article that > appears today in talk.politics.mideast. I consider this > article a far greater example of jew-hatred than the cheap > vulgarisms directed at Nancy Gould. > Article posted below: [article by Tom Tedrick deleted which, incidentally, contains no Jew-hatred] I'll tell ya what, Leornard; why don't you and David Makowsky get a law passed that requires all suspected anti-Semites to wear a big blue triangle, right above the heart. After you get enough of them together, you can ship them all off to "re-education centers". Oh, looks like it's been done before. If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? -- Chris (Munson)-Long "The proofs are so obvious that they can be left to the reader." Lars V. Ahlfors, _Complex Analysis_
brs@lzfme.att.com (B.SCHWARTZ) (12/08/88)
>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than >with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand. It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand with anti-Semites. It proves the point that many on the net don't view anti-semitism as an evil. They feel it should be tolerated. I still believe that it is hurtful and evil. -- --Betsy R. Schwartz --aka-- Kinyan Cattery------------------------- (201) 576-3632 Ruddy and Red Abyssinians att!lzfme!brs Home of Ch. Yavapai Isis of Kinyan & Kinyan's Ramsette & some people too!
rob@violet.berkeley.edu (Rob Robertson) (12/08/88)
In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than >with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? i'd rather stand away (and preferably upwind) from both groups. both are repulsive. rob
clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) (12/08/88)
In article <1017@lzfme.att.com>, B.SCHWARTZ writes: > >In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> I wrote: > >If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than > >with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? > Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand. I stand for free speech; now we know where YOU stand, Betsy. Do you campaign to get books banned from your local library also? > It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand > with anti-Semites. It proves the point that many on the net don't view > anti-semitism as an evil. They feel it should be tolerated. Of course anti-Semitism is an evil; I simply feel that J Random Luser is entitled to whatever opinions he/she wants - no matter how stupid and loathsome, like anti-Semitism, those opinions may be. BTW, Betsy, I don't tolerate it (and any other kind of bigotry) at all. I have an interesting story to tell along these lines : while I was in one of the local student centers I was approached by a person who started to inform me exactly what he thought of foreign students. Thinking that he was a psychology graduate student working on some kind of experiment (with us poor students as the guinea pigs), I told him to buzz off. As he persisted it became clear that he really was serious. At this point I informed him that unless he took himself and his opinions elsewhere his legs were in serious jeopardy of undergoing spontaneous multiple fractures (I am a rather large fellow) - he decided to scat at that point. Yes Betsy, bigotry is still alive (this incident took place only *weeks* ago). How do we combat it? I believe this is the point we disagree on. > I still believe that it is hurtful and evil. No kidding, Sherlock. -- Chris Long "The proofs are so obvious that they can be left to the reader." Lars V. Ahlfors, _Complex Analysis_
nyssa@terminus.UUCP (The Prime Minister) (12/08/88)
In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes: >>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than >>with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? > >Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand. > >It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand >with anti-Semites. It proves the point that many on the net don't view >anti-semitism as an evil. They feel it should be tolerated. > >I still believe that it is hurtful and evil. {above}s/anti-semitism/censorship/gp The facts are they are both "hurtful and evil". I wouldn't like to stand with either party. However, if I were required to make a choice, I would stand with those who support the rights of the anti-Semites to say what they want to say, AND the rights of the Semites to say what they want to say. By attempting to censor the idea, you will not cause the idea to vanish. In fact, you will probably make it stronger. Instead of trying to censor it, why not shine some light on it and let people see it for what it really is?
oliver@unc.cs.unc.edu (Bill Oliver) (12/09/88)
In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes: >>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than >>with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? > >Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand. > >It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand >with anti-Semites. It proves the point that many on the net don't view >anti-semitism as an evil. They feel it should be tolerated. > Oh, bullshit. The best defense against folk saying untruth about any group -- religious, ethnic, whatever is not to bring forth the Inquisition and start burning offensive books and censoring offensive people. It is to state the truth in response. Every time the neo-nazis march in some city, and every time they publish one of their little leaflets or magazines, they make themselves look like idiots. I suppose that because I am against the kind of censorship that has been used to silence Mr. Templeton, and because I extend my distaste of censorship generally that means that I, as a member of the ACLU, also stand with the anti-Semites against the witch-hunters. If that makes me an anti-Semite, that also makes me both a communist and a fascist and a capitalist and a libertaritan. It makes me anti-Semitic and anti-anti-Semitic. It makes me anti-everything and pro-everything in your book. I hope you have enough room in your blacklist to keep track of all the appropriate labels you would give me. >I still believe that it is hurtful and evil. Not nearly as hurtful as thought control or as evil as central control of what people can say and print. Bill Oliver
numork@ndsuvax.UUCP (James Mork) (12/09/88)
In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes: >>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than >>with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? > >Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand. > Did anybody else find this little discourse hilarious? (Not the subject... just what was actually said... the ultimate 2x irony) -- UUCP Bitnet Internet uunet!ndsuvax!numork numork@ndsuvax numork@plains.nodak.edu #! rnews 757 Path:
kylo@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Kylo Ginsberg) (12/09/88)
In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes: >>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than >>with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? > >Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand. > >It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand >with anti-Semites. Count me in and I'm half Jewish! I'm one of those dreaded "card-carrying members" of the ... ACLU, and I'll definitely stand up for the rights of some assholes to make anti-semitic comments before I'll line up with the assholes trying to shut up everyone with differing opinions. I think this is what Chris was talking about. >It proves the point that many on the net don't view >anti-semitism as an evil. They feel it should be tolerated. It does no such thing: take some logic classes. I personally view anti-semitism as evil, to say the least (I won't go into family history), but then I regard censorship as an evil too. Sometimes I make decisions based on the "lesser of two evils" principle. Think about it.
mrk@wuphys.UUCP (Mark R. Kaufmann) (12/09/88)
In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes: >>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than >>with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? > >Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand. > >It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand >with anti-Semites. > --Betsy R. Schwartz --aka-- Kinyan Cattery------------------------- I am thrilled to add my name to the list of those who would stand with bigots rather than dirty fascist censors. ======================================= Mark R. Kaufmann UUCP: ...!uunet!wucs1!wucfua!wuphys!mrk wuphys!mrk@uunet.uu.net Internet: mrk@wuphys.wustl.edu =======================================
chk@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (C. Harald Koch) (12/09/88)
In article <Dec.8.03.16.46.1988.13289@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >... bigotry is still alive (this incident took place >only *weeks* ago). A quote from a Suggestions board outside one of the terminal room at the University of Toronto: "Why are there so many orientals in computer science?" This at a University that lives adjacent to Toronto's Chinatown West. -- C. Harald Koch NTT Systems, Inc., Toronto, Ontario chk@zorac.dciem.dnd.ca, chk@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu, chk@chk.mef.unicus.com Note: some sites may still have zorac.dciem.dnd.ca as zorac.ARPA. "I give you my phone number. If you worry, call me. I'll make you happy."
shore@ncifcrf.gov (Melinda Shore) (12/10/88)
In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than >with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? I really don't see this as an either/or situation. Giving someone hell for making bigoted, ignorant comments hardly constitutes censorship. Yes, I stand behind our Constitutional right to say stupid, even hateful, things, but I don't intend to remain silent when I hear them. I don't see the need to stand with either the anti-Semites or the censors. -- Melinda Shore shore@ncifcrf.gov NCI Supercomputer Facility ..!uunet!ncifcrf.gov!shore
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (12/10/88)
In article <Dec.8.03.16.46.1988.13289@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: >Of course anti-Semitism is an evil; I simply feel that J Random Luser >is entitled to whatever opinions he/she wants - no matter how stupid >and loathsome, like anti-Semitism, those opinions may be... As has been pointed out in the past, freedom of speech means little if it's only the freedom to say things that we (whoever "we" are) consider sensible or approve of. True freedom of speech has to include the freedom to be a damn fool or a revolting slimeball. -- SunOSish, adj: requiring | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology 32-bit bug numbers. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
allen@sulaco.Sigma.COM (Allen Gwinn) (12/10/88)
In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes: ]]In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: ]]If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than ]]with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? ]Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand. ]It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand ]with anti-Semites. It proves the point that many on the net don't view ]anti-semitism as an evil. They feel it should be tolerated. ]I still believe that it is hurtful and evil. Well, now we know how newspaper reporters learn to quote people out of context! Betsy, did you even bother to read Chris' article, or do you just go off half-cocked at everything you do? ...wonder if she can quote me out of context... this could be interesting :-) -- Allen Gwinn ...sulaco!allen Disclaimer: The opinions are my own "I occasionally have exchanged [racist] jokes in private company, but never [in earshot of a reporter]"--Luisa D'Amato, Byline Editor for the Kitchener- Waterloo Record (reporter who wrote story critical of Brad Templeton).
erict@flatline.UUCP (j eric townsend) (12/11/88)
In article <5786@thorin.cs.unc.edu>, oliver@unc.cs.unc.edu (Bill Oliver) writes: > In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes: > >>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes: > >>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than > >>with the witch-hunters and the censors. Don't people ever learn? > >Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand. > >It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand > >with anti-Semites. It proves the point that many on the net don't view > >anti-semitism as an evil. They feel it should be tolerated. > I suppose that because I am against the kind of censorship that has > been used to silence Mr. Templeton, and because I extend my distaste > of censorship generally that means that I, as a member of the ACLU, > also stand with the anti-Semites against the witch-hunters. Well, if being against censorship makes you an anti-semite, you might as well put my name down on the list of anti-semites as well. I happen to view anti-semitism as very evil. I think the solution to dealing with it is *educating* people, and letting the anti-semites make themselves look like the ignorant fucks that they are. The answer is *not* in some sort of "central editing" agency that removes all the anti-Semetic material from the net. (And, coincidentally, removes any evidence of their existence from the net, leading me to believe that there are no more anti-Semites! 1/2 :-) -- 'That's why our house has clay mirrors / So that I won't see my eyes in the morning.' -- Aquarium (an underground Russian band) J. Eric Townsend -- smail: 511 Parker #2, Houston, Tx, 77007 UUCP: uunet!sugar!flatline!erict ..!bellcore!texbell!/