[news.sysadmin] Anti-Semite witch hunt

clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) (12/07/88)

In article <401@hropus.UUCP>, Leonard Oppenheimer writes:

> This is not really a followup to the above article, it is
> instead the posting to this newsgroup an article that
> appears today in talk.politics.mideast.  I consider this
> article a far greater example of jew-hatred than the cheap 
> vulgarisms directed at Nancy Gould.

> Article posted below:

[article by Tom Tedrick deleted which, incidentally, contains no
Jew-hatred]

I'll tell ya what, Leornard; why don't you and David Makowsky get a
law passed that requires all suspected anti-Semites to wear a big
blue triangle, right above the heart.  After you get enough of them
together, you can ship them all off to "re-education centers".  Oh,
looks like it's been done before.

If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn? 
-- 
Chris (Munson)-Long

"The proofs are so obvious that they can be left to the reader."
Lars V. Ahlfors, _Complex Analysis_

brs@lzfme.att.com (B.SCHWARTZ) (12/08/88)

>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
>with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn? 

Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand.

It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand
with anti-Semites.   It proves the point that many on the net don't view
anti-semitism as an evil.  They feel it should be tolerated.

I still believe that it is hurtful and evil.
-- 
 --Betsy R. Schwartz  --aka-- Kinyan Cattery-------------------------
   (201) 576-3632             Ruddy and Red Abyssinians
    att!lzfme!brs             Home of Ch. Yavapai Isis of Kinyan
                              & Kinyan's Ramsette & some people too!

rob@violet.berkeley.edu (Rob Robertson) (12/08/88)

In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
>with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn? 

i'd rather stand away (and preferably upwind) from both groups.  both are repulsive. 

rob

clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) (12/08/88)

In article <1017@lzfme.att.com>, B.SCHWARTZ writes:
> >In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> I wrote:

> >If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
> >with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn?

> Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand.

I stand for free speech; now we know where YOU stand, Betsy.  Do you
campaign to get books banned from your local library also?

> It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand
> with anti-Semites.   It proves the point that many on the net don't view
> anti-semitism as an evil.  They feel it should be tolerated.

Of course anti-Semitism is an evil; I simply feel that J Random Luser
is entitled to whatever opinions he/she wants - no matter how stupid
and loathsome, like anti-Semitism, those opinions may be.  BTW, Betsy,
I don't tolerate it (and any other kind of bigotry) at all.  I have an
interesting story to tell along these lines : while I was in one of the
local student centers I was approached by a person who started to inform
me exactly what he thought of foreign students.  Thinking that he was a
psychology graduate student working on some kind of experiment (with us
poor students as the guinea pigs), I told him to buzz off.  As he
persisted it became clear that he really was serious.  At this point
I informed him that unless he took himself and his opinions elsewhere
his legs were in serious jeopardy of undergoing spontaneous multiple
fractures (I am a rather large fellow) - he decided to scat at that
point.  Yes Betsy, bigotry is still alive (this incident took place
only *weeks* ago).  How do we combat it?  I believe this is the point
we disagree on.

> I still believe that it is hurtful and evil.

No kidding, Sherlock.
-- 
Chris Long

"The proofs are so obvious that they can be left to the reader."
Lars V. Ahlfors, _Complex Analysis_

nyssa@terminus.UUCP (The Prime Minister) (12/08/88)

In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes:
>>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
>>with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn? 
>
>Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand.
>
>It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand
>with anti-Semites.   It proves the point that many on the net don't view
>anti-semitism as an evil.  They feel it should be tolerated.
>
>I still believe that it is hurtful and evil.

{above}s/anti-semitism/censorship/gp

The facts are they are both "hurtful and evil".  I wouldn't like to
stand with either party.

However, if I were required to make a choice, I would stand with 
those who support the rights of the anti-Semites to say what
they want to say, AND the rights of the Semites to say what they
want to say.

By attempting to censor the idea, you will not cause the idea
to vanish.  In fact, you will probably make it stronger.  Instead
of trying to censor it, why not shine some light on it and let
people see it for what it really is?

oliver@unc.cs.unc.edu (Bill Oliver) (12/09/88)

In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes:
>>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
>>with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn? 
>
>Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand.
>
>It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand
>with anti-Semites.   It proves the point that many on the net don't view
>anti-semitism as an evil.  They feel it should be tolerated.
>

Oh, bullshit.  The best defense against folk saying untruth about any
group -- religious, ethnic, whatever is not to bring forth the
Inquisition and start burning offensive books and censoring offensive
people.  It is to state the truth in response.  Every time the neo-nazis
march in some city, and every time they publish one of their little
leaflets or magazines, they make themselves look like idiots.

I suppose that because I am against the kind of censorship that has
been used to silence Mr. Templeton, and because I extend my distaste
of censorship generally that means that I, as a member of the ACLU,
also stand with the anti-Semites against the witch-hunters.

If that makes me an anti-Semite, that also makes me both a 
communist and a fascist and a capitalist and a libertaritan.
It makes me anti-Semitic and anti-anti-Semitic.  It makes me
anti-everything and pro-everything in your book.  I hope you
have enough room in your blacklist to keep track of all the
appropriate labels you would give me.
 

>I still believe that it is hurtful and evil.

Not nearly as hurtful as thought control or as evil as central
control of what people can say and print.

Bill Oliver

numork@ndsuvax.UUCP (James Mork) (12/09/88)

In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes:
>>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
>>with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn?
>
>Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand.
>
   Did anybody else find this little discourse hilarious?
   (Not the subject... just what was actually said... the ultimate 2x irony)

--
                  UUCP                Bitnet                Internet
          uunet!ndsuvax!numork    numork@ndsuvax     numork@plains.nodak.edu

#! rnews            757
Path: 

kylo@ecsvax.uncecs.edu (Kylo Ginsberg) (12/09/88)

In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes:
>>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
>>with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn? 
>
>Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand.
>
>It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand
>with anti-Semites.

Count me in and I'm half Jewish!  I'm one of those dreaded "card-carrying
members" of the ... ACLU, and I'll definitely stand up for the rights of 
some assholes to make anti-semitic comments before I'll line up with the
assholes trying to shut up everyone with differing opinions.  I think this
is what Chris was talking about.

>It proves the point that many on the net don't view
>anti-semitism as an evil.  They feel it should be tolerated.

It does no such thing: take some logic classes.  I personally view
anti-semitism as evil, to say the least (I won't go into family history),
but then I regard censorship as an evil too.  Sometimes I make decisions
based on the "lesser of two evils" principle.  Think about it.

mrk@wuphys.UUCP (Mark R. Kaufmann) (12/09/88)

In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes:
>>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
>>with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn? 
>
>Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand.
>
>It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand
>with anti-Semites.
> --Betsy R. Schwartz  --aka-- Kinyan Cattery-------------------------

I am thrilled to add my name to the list of those who would stand with
bigots rather than dirty fascist censors.
=======================================
Mark R. Kaufmann
UUCP: ...!uunet!wucs1!wucfua!wuphys!mrk
      wuphys!mrk@uunet.uu.net
Internet: mrk@wuphys.wustl.edu
=======================================

chk@dretor.dciem.dnd.ca (C. Harald Koch) (12/09/88)

In article <Dec.8.03.16.46.1988.13289@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>... bigotry is still alive (this incident took place
>only *weeks* ago).

A quote from a Suggestions board outside one of the terminal room at the
University of Toronto:

	"Why are there so many orientals in computer science?"

This at a University that lives adjacent to Toronto's Chinatown West.

--
C. Harald Koch		NTT Systems, Inc., Toronto, Ontario
chk@zorac.dciem.dnd.ca, chk@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu, chk@chk.mef.unicus.com
Note: some sites may still have zorac.dciem.dnd.ca as zorac.ARPA.
"I give you my phone number. If you worry, call me. I'll make you happy."

shore@ncifcrf.gov (Melinda Shore) (12/10/88)

In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
>with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn?

I really don't see this as an either/or situation.  Giving someone hell
for making bigoted, ignorant comments hardly constitutes censorship.  Yes,
I stand behind our Constitutional right to say stupid, even hateful, things,
but I don't intend to remain silent when I hear them.

I don't see the need to stand with either the anti-Semites or the censors.
-- 
Melinda Shore                                    shore@ncifcrf.gov
NCI Supercomputer Facility              ..!uunet!ncifcrf.gov!shore

henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (12/10/88)

In article <Dec.8.03.16.46.1988.13289@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
>Of course anti-Semitism is an evil; I simply feel that J Random Luser
>is entitled to whatever opinions he/she wants - no matter how stupid
>and loathsome, like anti-Semitism, those opinions may be...

As has been pointed out in the past, freedom of speech means little if
it's only the freedom to say things that we (whoever "we" are) consider
sensible or approve of.  True freedom of speech has to include the freedom
to be a damn fool or a revolting slimeball.
-- 
SunOSish, adj:  requiring      |     Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology
32-bit bug numbers.            | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu

allen@sulaco.Sigma.COM (Allen Gwinn) (12/10/88)

In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes:
]]In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
]]If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
]]with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn? 

]Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand.

]It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand
]with anti-Semites.   It proves the point that many on the net don't view
]anti-semitism as an evil.  They feel it should be tolerated.

]I still believe that it is hurtful and evil.


Well, now we know how newspaper reporters learn to quote people
out of context!  Betsy, did you even bother to read Chris' article, or
do you just go off half-cocked at everything you do?

...wonder if she can quote me out of context... this could be interesting :-)
-- 
Allen Gwinn  ...sulaco!allen             Disclaimer: The opinions are my own
"I occasionally have exchanged [racist] jokes in private company, but never
 [in earshot of a reporter]"--Luisa D'Amato, Byline Editor for the Kitchener-
 Waterloo Record (reporter who wrote story critical of Brad Templeton).

erict@flatline.UUCP (j eric townsend) (12/11/88)

In article <5786@thorin.cs.unc.edu>, oliver@unc.cs.unc.edu (Bill Oliver) writes:
> In article <1017@lzfme.att.com> brs@lzfme.UUCP (xmrj5-B.SCHWARTZ) writes:
> >>In article <Dec.6.17.28.54.1988.7817@topaz.rutgers.edu> clong@topaz.rutgers.edu (Chris Long) writes:
> >>If if comes down to it, I'd rather stand with the anti-Semites than
> >>with the witch-hunters and the censors.  Don't people ever learn? 

> >Well, Chris, now we know where YOU stand.
> >It'd be interesting to know how many others would rather stand
> >with anti-Semites.   It proves the point that many on the net don't view
> >anti-semitism as an evil.  They feel it should be tolerated.

> I suppose that because I am against the kind of censorship that has
> been used to silence Mr. Templeton, and because I extend my distaste
> of censorship generally that means that I, as a member of the ACLU,
> also stand with the anti-Semites against the witch-hunters.

Well, if being against censorship makes you an anti-semite, you might
as well put my name down on the list of anti-semites as well.


I happen to view anti-semitism as very evil.  I think the solution to
dealing with it is *educating* people, and letting the anti-semites
make themselves look like the ignorant fucks that they are.

The answer is *not* in some sort of "central editing" agency that removes
all the anti-Semetic material from the net.  (And, coincidentally, removes
any evidence of their existence from the net, leading me to believe
that there are no more anti-Semites! 1/2 :-)



-- 
'That's why our house has clay mirrors / So that I won't see my eyes in the
morning.' -- Aquarium (an underground Russian band)
J. Eric Townsend -- smail: 511 Parker #2, Houston, Tx, 77007
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