[news.sysadmin] Use domains without registering?

jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher) (03/04/90)

I have another (sigh) question about domains.  I've been told that
in order to use domains, I would have to register my site with
an Internet site (uunet, for example).  I don't understand this.
Why can't I just add a domain address to my uucp map entry and use
it anyway, without registering?  I realize that mail will not be
able to traverse into the realm of Internet.  But isn't it the eventual goal
to have everyone using domains anyway?  Why can't I just add the entry
to my map (assuming, of course, I don't care about Internet)?  Can
anyone explain this?  Thanx in advance.


-- 
Jesse W. Asher - Dynasys - (901)382-1705     Evening: (901)382-1609 
6196-1 Macon Rd., Suite 200, Memphis, TN 38134  
UUCP: {uunet,fedeva,rayo}!dynasys!jessea

karl@giza.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) (03/04/90)

The problem is that, if you don't register a domain name with the NIC,
then all you've done by changing your UUCP map entry is to change the
name by which you're referred in UUCP addressing, which is to say that
you've done yourself no good at all:  Given that people can already
reach you via the existing UUCP registry, you gain nothing by changing
(adding what amount to aliases for) that name.

The win of registering a domain name properly is that anyone anywhere
can then reach you.  And they don't have to know _how_ you're being
reached, since domain addresses imply no routing or transport.

I suppose you _could_ just add a domain name to your map entry, if you
could get it past your regional map coordinator (which I doubt).  But
it seems awfully pointless.

--karl

scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us (Steve Simmons) (03/05/90)

jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher) writes:

>I have another (sigh) question about domains.  I've been told that
>in order to use domains, I would have to register my site with
>an Internet site (uunet, for example).  I don't understand this.
>Why can't I just add a domain address to my uucp map entry and use
>it anyway, without registering?  I realize that mail will not be
>able to traverse into the realm of Internet.  But isn't it the eventual goal
>to have everyone using domains anyway?  Why can't I just add the entry
>to my map (assuming, of course, I don't care about Internet)?  Can
>anyone explain this?  Thanx in advance.

Curious that you should ask this just now . . . we've recently
found a few sites doing just that in mi.us and mi.org.  You might
appreciate knowing what happened.

Mail started showing up at some of the central distribution points
for the michigan domains with no obvious place to send it.  After
looking it over and seeing no obvious way to get it out, it was
returned to sender.

Result 1: some of your mail won't get delivered, and the postmasters
 who are stuck with it will become irritated.

We then found some sites that put the addresses in their uucp
maps but never registered them on the internet.  Pure internet
sites (which don't necessarily use the map if it looks like a
valid internet address) cannot mail to that address.

Result 2: some of your mail won't get delivered, and the postmasters
 who are stuck with it will become angry.

We then found some sites that even sent in the registration papers
saying their mail should be forwarded thru specific internet sites,
but they neglected to ask those sites if it was OK.  The agencies
in charge of the MX records assumed (reasonably) that the registering
site had permission to use the internet site, and suddenly that
internet site was hit with unexpected and undeliverable mail.

Result 3: some of your mail won't get delivered, and the postmasters
 who are stuck with it will become very angry, along with the NIC
 and ISI.

We then got out the rakes, shovels, and implements of destruction
and did our damnedest to ensure this will never happen again.  The
people who misused the registrations are going to have a damned
hard time getting more than the absolute minimum co-operation from
the major local mail relay sites.

Result 4: you will have to register anyway, after recieving a
 metaphoric black eye in the local email community.


Other states may be different, but in Michigan I'd suggest you register.

Steve Simmons, speaking as a member of but not for the Michigan
Mail Mafia (mi.org, mi.us).
-- 
Steve Simmons      ...sharkey!lokkur!scs     scs@lokkur.dexter.mi.us
"My occupational hazard's that my occupation's just not around."
				-- Jimmy Buffet

clarke@acheron.uucp (Ed Clarke/10240000) (03/05/90)

From article <72@dynasys.UUCP>, by jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher):
> Why can't I just add a domain address to my uucp map entry and use
> it anyway, without registering?  I realize that mail will not be
> able to traverse into the realm of Internet.

And when someone sends mail to jessea@dynasys.com via uunet and the MX
lookup fails, your mail will be returned to sender - address unknown.
You can't do this - it's like changing your mailing address without
moving ( example: deciding you don't like Tennesee and declaring that
Memphis is now part of California.  Mail to Jesse in Memphis Ca. will
probably be returned to sender [if it's not simply lost] ).

I see that you're a uunet.uu.net customer.  They can register you for
real at a nominal fee ( worth it to avoid the paperwork ).
-- 
Ed Clarke      | Happiness, n.  An agreeable sensation arising from
acheron!clarke | contemplating the misery of another. - Ambrose Bierce

spaf@cs.purdue.EDU (Gene Spafford) (03/05/90)

In article <72@dynasys.UUCP> jessea@dynasys.UUCP (Jesse W. Asher) asks
why he can't just make up a domain, put it in his uucp map entry, and
then use it without going through the formal registration period.

Well, there are a number of reasons.  The first is that large numbers
of sites out there (ours included) use the nameservers to resolve
addresses.  If you made up your own domain (say, dynasys.com), and
started using it, all of the sites that use nameservers, or that
forward their domain-ized mail to sites with nameservers, would
suddenly be unable to communicate with your site.  For instance, if I
tried to send mail to someone with an address like that, it would come
back with an "unknown domain" error.  The number of sites in this
category is large, and growing larger everyday; it also includes most
"major" sites on the net. We don't use the uucp maps to send mail to
sites with proper domain names. I suspect you wouldn't even be able to
get mail through uunet, since I bet the mailer there does exactly the
same thing as ours.

A second good reason is collisions.  Maybe you're the only dynasys in
the world.  Maybe not.  If you don't have a central authority that
tracks names and ensures there are no collisions, you may suddenly
find that some other place out there is also going by the name
"dynasys.com" -- and they've registered their name so you're out of
luck.

A third reason is that I bet the folks maintaining the maps won't take
a domain name in a map entry unless it is registered somewhere.

If you're going to do it, do it right.  Get a properly registered domain.
-- 
Gene Spafford
NSF/Purdue/U of Florida  Software Engineering Research Center,
Dept. of Computer Sciences, Purdue University, W. Lafayette IN 47907-2004
Internet:  spaf@cs.purdue.edu	uucp:	...!{decwrl,gatech,ucbvax}!purdue!spaf

schoff@psi.com (Marty Schoffstall) (03/05/90)

You can request a domain based address without the help of an Internet
site.  One fills out the domain registration form and submits it to
hostmaster@nic.ddn.mil (who can also send you an electronic form
of the registration).


-- 
Martin L. Schoffstall
Performance Systems Internationl Inc.
Reston Virgina, US
schoff@psi.com

lmb@vicom.com (Larry Blair) (03/06/90)

In article <1990Mar5.011734.29495@psi.com> schoff@psi.com (Marty Schoffstall) writes:
=You can request a domain based address without the help of an Internet
=site.  One fills out the domain registration form and submits it to
=hostmaster@nic.ddn.mil (who can also send you an electronic form
=of the registration).

Yea?  Well who's going to hold your MX record?  And who's going to forward
your mail?
-- 
Larry Blair   ames!vsi1!lmb   lmb@vicom.com

john@jetson.UPMA.MD.US (John Owens) (03/06/90)

In article <1990Mar4.165936.16634@acheron.uucp> clarke@acheron.uucp (Ed Clarke/10240000) writes:
   I see that you're a uunet.uu.net customer.  They can register you for
   real at a nominal fee ( worth it to avoid the paperwork ).

uunet customers can get registered for no extra fee.  Non-uunet
customers can be registered by uunet for either $30 or $35. ($30 is
the one-month uunet "membership fee" or whatever it's called.)
--
John Owens		john@jetson.UPMA.MD.US		uunet!jetson!john
+1 301 249 6000		john%jetson.uucp@uunet.uu.net

david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- a slipped disk) (03/06/90)

Simple..

For the domain system to be effective everybody must agree on the names.  
This pretty much means a fairly centralized control of the names.

Earlier a totally centralized control was attempted, but this was found
to be unworkable.  The turn around time to get entries into the Official
File became horrendous and, I'm sure, the network bandwidth in transferring
the Official File from the Official Site to hither and yon was driving
the Official Site batty.

So now we have a distributed control of the naming tree.  In order to
establish a domain name at some level, say .com, you talk to the authority
at that level.  In this case hostmaster@nic.ddn.mil.  You tell he guy
and/or gal you want this name, say mmdf.com.  And they mumble for awhile
and decide you're ok and let you have it.  That's the hard part, now whenever
you want to add an entry into mmdf.com, say davids.mmdf.com, you just
add a record to the nameserver servicing your domain.  For instance
this amiga sitting at the other end of the table from my Unix PC (the
Unix PC is davids.mmdf.com) may well soon become known as amy.mmdf.com.

Right now amy is known as amy.funky-do-do.  That's because I was installing
UUCP & mail & Usenet on it, the software asked for a domain name and I
knew I'd better not use one of the legal domain suffixes.  So I made one up.
Weird sh*t, huh? :-)

All that'll be required is telling the guy at rutgers who takes care of my
domain file to add in another MX record...
-- 
<- David Herron; an MMDF guy                              <david@ms.uky.edu>
<- ska: David le casse\*'      {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET
<-
<- Now arrived at a nameserver near you:  david@davids.mmdf.com