garry@batcomputer.UUCP (05/30/87)
From a recent version of Pnews: > This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire > civilized world. You message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of > dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. Does this mean that someone is spending millions if not tens of millions of dollars per year to support 'soc.singles'? (Is it unethical to program in false warning messages?) garry wiegand (garry@oak.cadif.cornell.edu - ARPA) (garry@crnlthry - BITNET)
spaf@gatech.edu (Gene Spafford) (06/01/87)
In article <1216@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> garry@oak.cadif.cornell.edu writes: >From a recent version of Pnews: > >> This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire >> civilized world. You message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of >> dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. > >Does this mean that someone is spending millions if not tens of millions >of dollars per year to support 'soc.singles'? Yup. Figure that only the 40 or so backbone sites have any cost involved in transfer or storage of news. Figure each soc.singles article costs $.05 to store and forward. Figure 5000 articles per year (perhaps too conservative). That means the backbone sites (collectively) are paying $10000 per year for just that group. Now realize that the actual number of sites involved netwide with transfer and storage costs is a lot closer to 10000 than 40, and that the per article costs may actually be higher, on average. Netwide, soc.singles is possibly costing in the millions of dollars a year to support. The nature of the net makes it difficult to get exact figures, but by any reasonable estimates it makes sense to let people know it costs real money *somewhere* to support all these bytes. -- Gene Spafford Software Engineering Research Center (SERC), Georgia Tech, Atlanta GA 30332 CSNet: Spaf @ GATech ARPA: Spaf@gatech.EDU uucp: ...!{akgua,decvax,hplabs,ihnp4,linus,seismo,ulysses}!gatech!spaf
allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) (06/01/87)
As quoted from <1216@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> by garry@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Garry Wiegand): +--------------- | From a recent version of Pnews: (deleted cost warning) | | Does this mean that someone is spending millions if not tens of millions | of dollars per year to support 'soc.singles'? +--------------- For a single site, not $M. For ALL sites that pass soc.singles, quite likely. And if the newsgroup gets lots of postings, we're talking even more. Phone service isn't cheap, and the `world' distribution causes messages to be passed along even more expensive intercontinental links. ++Brando -- Copyright (C) 1987 Brandon S. Allbery. Redistribution permitted only if the redistributor permits further redistribution. ---- Moderator for comp.sources.misc ---- Brandon S. Allbery {decvax,cbatt,cbosgd}!cwruecmp!ncoast!allbery Tridelta Industries {ames,mit-eddie,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery 7350 Corporate Blvd. necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU Mentor, OH 44060 +01 216 255 1080 (also eddie.MIT.EDU)
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (06/01/87)
In article <1216@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> garry@oak.cadif.cornell.edu writes: > From a recent version of Pnews: > > > This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire > > civilized world. You message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of > > dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. > > Does this mean that someone is spending millions if not tens of millions > of dollars per year to support 'soc.singles'? > > (Is it unethical to program in false warning messages?) > > garry wiegand (garry@oak.cadif.cornell.edu - ARPA) > (garry@crnlthry - BITNET) What makes you think that it's bogus? Most sites that participate in usenet spend thousands of dollars a year on telecommunications charges to receive and redistribute news articles. A thousand sites (conservative) at a thousand (*very* conservative) dollars a year is a million dollars. I would estimate that the real total expenditure is 5-20 times this much. Since the soc.xxx groups are ~10% of the total volume, you can work out the details. Talk it over with your news administrator. -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
biep@klipper.UUCP (06/02/87)
> This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire > civilized world. You message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of > dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. > > Does this mean that someone is spending millions if not tens of millions > of dollars per year to support 'soc.singles'? > > (Is it unethical to program in false warning messages?) That part is true, and therefore not unethical (without wanting to say that all true facts can be ethically made public!). The hard part is, that this message actually defines the civilized world to be those parts of the world where usenet is received. As a joke, that might be funny, but in this way it sounds both boasting (are we really so civilized?) and insulting to the rest of the world. I am sure the author hadn't meant it that way, but since I read it I have been waiting for someone to say we shouldn't say such things. I am disappointed nobody did (but perhaps they were all waiting like me :-)) -- Biep. (biep@cs.vu.nl via mcvax) When a doctor doctors a doctor, does the doctoring doctor doctor the doc- tored doctor with the doctoring doctor's doctrine, or does the doctoring doctor doctor the doctored doctor with the doctored doctor's doctrine?
dhb@rayssd.UUCP (06/03/87)
In article <1953@cbmvax.cbmvax.cbm.UUCP> grr@cbmvax.UUCP (George Robbins) writes: >In article <1216@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> garry@oak.cadif.cornell.edu writes: >> From a recent version of Pnews: ... >> Does this mean that someone is spending millions if not tens of millions >> of dollars per year to support 'soc.singles'? > >What makes you think that it's bogus? Most sites that participate in usenet >spend thousands of dollars a year on telecommunications charges to receive and >redistribute news articles. A thousand sites (conservative) at a thousand >(*very* conservative) dollars a year is a million dollars. I would estimate >that the real total expenditure is 5-20 times this much. Since the soc.xxx >groups are ~10% of the total volume, you can work out the details. I would certainly agree that this estimate is conservative. I dont consider my site to be very large, we only have one news connection that we have to pay money for (we have other feeds but they use company internal phone links) and I was recently told by management to cut the phone bills because they had exceeded a thousand a month. If we are spending a thousand dollars a month I can imagine what other sites are spending. -- David H. Brierley Raytheon Submarine Signal Division 1847 West Main Road Portsmouth, RI 02871 Phone: (401)-847-8000 x4073 Internet: dhb@rayssd.ray.com Uucp: {cbosgd, gatech, linus, mirror, necntc, uiucdcs} !rayssd!dhb
lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP (06/03/87)
Pnews (which I wrote) says: >> This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire >> civilized world. You message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of >> dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. In article <778@klipper.cs.vu.nl> biep@cs.vu.nl (J. A. "Biep" Durieux) writes: >The hard part is, that this message actually defines the civilized world >to be those parts of the world where usenet is received. As a joke, that >might be funny, But it IS a joke. I guess I made the mistake of thinking we speak a language where jokes don't have to be declared. >but in this way it sounds both boasting (are we really so civilized?) Allowing free speech across your borders is not a bad measure of civilization, as such things go. Now, part of what's going on here is that the descriptive word "civilized" is starting to mean "good" in the same way that the descriptive word "villain" has come to mean "bad guy". This is a nasty thing to happen to a word, but it does, and there's not much you or I can do to prevent it. When I say "civilized", I don't mean "good", I mean "civilized". You've got to have some word to distinguish that portion of the world that thinks of itself as the leader in social and economic development, whether it is or not. I've not run into a lot of people who misunderstand me when I say "civilized". If I do run into a lot of them, then the rational thing to do is to abandon the use of the word in its old meaning and say "Sigh!" yet again. But I won't give up a word until it leads to widespread confusion. Likewise, my brother is retarded. That doesn't mean he's bad. Some people get upset when I say my brother is retarded. But not enough of them for me to substitute a less apt and more ponderous phrase for a perfectly meaningful word. >and insulting to the rest of the world. But how can they be insulted if they haven't read it? I call this a 2nd order offense. More later. >I am sure the author hadn't meant it that way, but since I read it I have >been waiting for someone to say we shouldn't say such things. I am >disappointed nobody did (but perhaps they were all waiting like me :-)) Not everyone feels that they should be insulted in behalf of others. I try to make a careful distinction between 1st order and 2nd order offenses. I have to, or I'd never get anything done at my church, where I coordinate the music program. Typical conversation, slightly abridged and transmogrified: Me: You wanted to see me about something? They: Yes, I'm afraid that the purple tie with yellow polka-dots the pianist wore last Sunday may have offended some people. Me: Were you offended by it? They: Well, no, not really. But I'm afraid someone might have been distracted from their worship by it. Me: Do you know of anyone in particular who was offended? They: Well, no, but shouldn't we be as careful as possible just in case it makes someone feel uncomfortable? Me: You think we should enforce cultural homogeneity in our congregation just to keep people as comfortable as possible? Whatever happened to "preach the gospel to every creature"? etc. Are we so civilized? I dunno. I want you to know that I'm not offended, and I suppose that's a mark of civilization. I take your article as one data point to fit the curve of my life to. You think I should hogtie my language? You think I should breast beat myself for being a Have rather than a Havenot? Maybe I should. But I've got other data points, and a Higher Mathematician. Peace, Larry Wall {allegra,burdvax,cbosgd,hplabs,ihnp4,sdcsvax}!sdcrdcf!lwall
biep@klipper.UUCP (06/05/87)
Long! In article <4665@sdcrdcf.UUCP> lwall@sdcrdcf.UUCP (Larry Wall) writes: >Pnews (which I wrote) says: > This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire > civilized world. You message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of > dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. In article <778@klipper.cs.vu.nl> biep@cs.vu.nl (that's me) writes: >The hard part is, that this message actually defines the civilized world >to be those parts of the world where usenet is received. As a joke, that >might be funny, Larry: >But it IS a joke. I guess I made the mistake of thinking we speak a language >where jokes don't have to be declared. OK, sorry - I missed it. === Hereunder follow some miscellaneous comments on Larries posting === Larry: >Allowing free speech across your borders is not a bad measure of civilization, >as such things go. (...) You've got to have some >word to distinguish that portion of the world that thinks of itself as the >leader in social and economic development, whether it is or not. But what have technology and economic development to do with *civilisation*? There may be a correlation, but I guess if there is from some point on it will be a negative one. About a word: what about "western(ized)" ? Me: >and insulting to the rest of the world. Larry: >But how can they be insulted if they haven't read it? >I call this a 2nd order offense. "Insult" and "offense" are not the same thing. To offend someone depends on the other, and indeed, that implies the other must have felt it that way. To insult someone requires intent, and doesn't require the other to remark it. Insulting someone may offend whoever hears/reads/etc. the insult (please note that I only spoke about "...sounds insulting", not about any actual insult). If I insult you, you are insulted by me. Whether you heard it or not. Larry: >Are we so civilized? I dunno. I want you to know that I'm not offended, >and I suppose that's a mark of civilization. Thanks. I indeed think that shows civilisation. Larry: >I take your article as one >data point to fit the curve of my life to. You think I should hogtie my >language? You think I should breast beat myself for being a Have rather >than a Havenot? Maybe I should. But I've got other data points, and >a Higher Mathematician. I don't know what "to hogtie" means, perhaps "to restrict", or "to clean up", but about the other things: no, not for me, at least. Such things always are to be decided in close contact with our common H. Mathian. The only reason I reacted was that I got the impression most people seemed to take for granted that our western culture was the only civilised one. I think my English wasn't good enough to have seen the obviousness of the joke. Besides: If I offended you, you would never add all those bells and whistles I asked for to rn. That alone would be more than enough reason not to do so :-) -- Biep. (biep@cs.vu.nl via mcvax) My F-key has autorepeat
elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) (06/08/87)
In article <1216@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> garry@oak.cadif.cornell.edu writes: > From a recent version of Pnews: > > > This program posts news to thousands of machines throughout the entire > > civilized world. You message will cost the net hundreds if not thousands of > > dollars to send everywhere. Please be sure you know what you are doing. > > Does this mean that someone is spending millions if not tens of millions > of dollars per year to support 'soc.singles'? > > (Is it unethical to program in false warning messages?) > > garry wiegand (garry@oak.cadif.cornell.edu - ARPA) > (garry@crnlthry - BITNET) Consider that the average USENET site, before the advent of PC Pursuit and UUNET, paid over $12,000/year for the phone bill for recieving netnews..... if I recall right, soc.singles is about 5% of total volume, so each site is spending at least $600/year on soc.singles. Multiply by 10,000 sites. You then have $6,000,000/year being spent on soc.singles! And that's not even counting the CPU time, disk storage, etc. necessary, just the actual cost paid to Ma Bell.... -- Eric Green elg%usl.CSNET CS student, University of SW Louisiana {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Apprentice Haquer, Bayou Telecommunications Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 BBS phone #: 318-984-3854 300/1200 baud Lafayette, LA 70509 I disclaim my existence, and yours, too.
tj@hemaneh.UUCP (06/15/87)
Newsgroups: news.software.b
Subject: ghost/floating articles
Summary:
Expires:
References:
Sender:
Reply-To: tj@hemaneh.UUCP (Cal Thixton Sun Dallas MTS)
Followup-To:
Distribution: news.software.notes news.groups news.sysadmin
Organization: Sun Microsystems, Inc. - Dallas, TX
Keywords: news notes gateway localized articles
my site, texsun, has become a news <=> notesfiles gateway recently
and i have noticed the following groups being made by notesfiles. they
do not appear in news, so i assume that news is bright enough not to
keep them, but it does seem to be passing these articles right
along to the next site. below is my sys file. perhaps the all option
is permitting these groups to get passed though not created locally?
the log file does make reference to them at times; something to the effect
that these articles are not localized, so they are probably going into
junk, i guess. there are not many articles in these groups, but the
costs, i would imagine, do add up if there are a log of ghost articles
like these floating around.
notes:all,net,world,comp,news,sci,rec,misc,soc,talk,ba,ca,na,usa,mod,su,sun,to.texsun,tx,dfw::/usr/spool/notes/.utilities/newsinput
texsun:all,net,world,comp,news,sci,rec,misc,soc,talk,ba,ca,na,usa,mod,su,sun,to.texsun::/usr/spool/notes/.utilities/newsinput
sun:all,net,world,comp,news,sci,rec,misc,soc,talk,na,usa,mod,su,sun,to.sun::/usr/lib/news/sendnews rnews@sun
ai.bboard alt.drugs alt.sources
amdahl.general amdahl.mac atl.jobs
att.chi att.general att.micro.pc
att.misc att.sys.3b att.sys.pc6300
att.sys.unixpc att.unix att.wanted
aus.mac ba.general ba.seminars
ba.test ba.wanted bac.c
balto.test bbs.songs bu.general
ca.general ca.politics ca.wanted
chi.general chi.wanted cnp.test
cu.general dr.audio dr.wanted
eunet.general field.test fj.ai
fj.questions ga.forsale ih.general
ih.micro ih.wanted la.general
lfl.jokes lfl.movies lfl.tv
md.test micro.general micro.ibm
ne.jobs ne.news ne.wanted
nj.general nj.wanted ny.general
ont.general or.forsale pb.micro.mac
pnw.general seattle.general tek.forsale
to.meccts to.nis triangle.forsale
triangle.graphics triangle.jobs ucb.jobs
unix-pc.general ut.stardate uwcsa.general
wny.general wny.wanted
--
Cal Thixton
Sun Microsystems Dallas
{ucbvax,decvax,decwrl,ihnp4}!sun!{,texsun!}tj
{ut-sally,convex,smu}!texsun!tj tj@sun.com