flash@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan) (07/04/89)
If you've already used rn seriously, don't bother with nn. The author is
quite firm that your welfare is unimportant. It's a fair amount of hassle
to get your .newsrc into the format required by the sequence part of your
.nn/init; you'll have to edit it, and do diffs on your .newsrc and your
site's active file. Your KILL files are history.
The biggest bug is deliberate & permanent: it incorrectly marks articles as
read [though you do have the option of incorrectly marking some as unread
instead.] {The author claims "incorrectly" is wrong; he's lying.} You
probably don't realize how awful this is. Our site has an antique bb system
which does this; it has a rather useful group about the library, which
contains both urgent messages ["the library is moving to a new building
today"] and reviews of some learned journals. I read local news in the
morning, when I can understand simple things; the news system then marks all
the day's article as read. This means, in practice, that I never read those
learned reviews.
Killing is much more sophisticated than rn's, but doesn't work until it's
too late: if half the articles in unix.wizards are on the Yiddish word for
"belch", you can make all such articles disappear. The next time you read
news, _not_ this time. I sometime quit & restart [slow; it's fast except
on startup], to simulate rn's behavior. Auto-selection likewise. Other
than that, it's beautiful.
Normal group selction is clumsy; there's no way to find out which groups
have unread news, except by finding out *all* groups which have unread
news. You can page through groups, getting a whole slow screenful
summarizing each; nn deliberately ignores the command you gave it a third of
the way through to skip this group and go to the next, which means you have
to stare at a group you don't feel like reading to see when it stops
displaying and will listen to the command you just gave it and now have to
give it again.
Its knowledge of headers is hard-coded, and wrong. It doesn't even
know about the "Summary:" field; this means you can't see it, _ever_; much
less interesting non-standard ones [in England we have a "Kenneth-Baker:"
field (he's the government agent in charge of destroying higher education.)]
For all its deliberate user-hostility, it's a beautiful piece of
work, and I use it about half the time. Try typing " " in the middle of a G
[goto group] command. Auto-selection is a wonderful concept,
well-implemented, except that it doesn't work. It really, truly, does save
you oodles of time in news-reading. Pity that the people who should save
time reading news are already using rn, and he's deliberately decided to
make it difficult for them to change.
But I think every site should have it; tell people who have never
read netnews before to use it. Making it is straightforward; even *I* could
do it, and seem to have been the first ever to Make it on a Sequent: there
were two problems, one probably my fault, one described in the PROBLEMS file.
--
---
From: flash@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan)
Reply-To: sheridan@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
Portal,MacNet: FlashsMomaem@ibiza.cs.miami.edu (a.e.mossberg) (07/05/89)
Flash apparently doesn't like nn. Some of his criticisms are valid, like killing not taking effect right away, but then rn doesn't either, if you manually edit the kill file (control-k) from within rn. I find that in my setup (mac-ii running a/ux, articles retrieved from another campus via nntp) that nn beats rn hands down, because of its local database for headers. I have found other problems with nn, such as not being able to define your article or mail headers (like rn allows you to do), but everything I've mentioned on the nn-info or nn-bugs mailing list has received a reply. Some patches have already been released. NN is far more organic than rn. Since I've installed nn, I haven't used rn *once*. I've resubscribed to groups which I had given up because of their high noise content. And I've actually been able to read high-activity groups before articles start to expire. NN isn't perfect, but in our setup here it beats any other newsreader we've tried. aem a.e.mossberg - aem@mthvax.cs.miami.edu/aem@umiami.BITNET - Pahayokee Bioregion L'extension des privileges des femmes est le principe general de tous progres sociaux. - Charles Fourier, 1808
fritz@unocss.UUCP (Tim Russell) (07/06/89)
flash@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan) writes: >If you've already used rn seriously, don't bother with nn. Could be so, quite probably is. I don't use rn, and never have. Ick. However, if you've been using vn, get thee to nn, go! It's the next logical step up from vn. >Killing is much more sophisticated than rn's, but doesn't work until it's >too late: if half the articles in unix.wizards are on the Yiddish word for >"belch", you can make all such articles disappear. The next time you read >news, _not_ this time. I sometime quit & restart [slow; it's fast except >on startup], to simulate rn's behavior. Auto-selection likewise. Other >than that, it's beautiful. You must have a slow machine - on our Sequent Balance 8000, nn is almost blindingly fast, and auto-selection has almost no penalty that I can notice. Hitting '+' to do autoselect on six or seven pages of a group is almost instantaneous. >Normal group selction is clumsy; there's no way to find out which groups >have unread news, except by finding out *all* groups which have unread >news. You can page through groups, getting a whole slow screenful >summarizing each; nn deliberately ignores the command you gave it a third of >the way through to skip this group and go to the next, which means you have >to stare at a group you don't feel like reading to see when it stops >displaying and will listen to the command you just gave it and now have to >give it again. This is indeed a limitation for some people. Not me. Kim Storm has already said, on nn-info, that a group selection menu is at the top of the list of additions. I like the method of reading that nn uses: I can see all subjects and pick from the ones that look interesting. RN drives me nuts showing me three lines for each article whether I care about the subject or not, and no overview. NN also sorts by subject. > Its knowledge of headers is hard-coded, and wrong. It doesn't even >know about the "Summary:" field; this means you can't see it, _ever_; much >less interesting non-standard ones [in England we have a "Kenneth-Baker:" >field (he's the government agent in charge of destroying higher education.)] Quite right, nn is lacking in this area if you care about such things. >It really, truly, does save >you oodles of time in news-reading. Pity that the people who should save >time reading news are already using rn, and he's deliberately decided to >make it difficult for them to change. It certainly is a pity! So many are using rn not knowing that there are so many other, better readers available. Maybe auto-selection doesn't work on your machine, but it's great on mine.. Quite handy. > But I think every site should have it; tell people who have never >read netnews before to use it. Making it is straightforward; even *I* could >do it, and seem to have been the first ever to Make it on a Sequent: there >were two problems, one probably my fault, one described in the PROBLEMS file. Oops! You're on a Sequent too! Well, there go the speed arguments.. :-) What time did you build yours? Let's see who's first! Anyway, people who've been using vn and liking it will LOVE nn! -- ---------------------------------+-------------------------------------------- Tim Russell, Computer Operator | Internet: russell@zeus.unl.edu Campus Computing | Bitnet: russell@unoma1 University of Nebraska at Omaha | UUCP: uunet!zeus.unl.edu!russell
syd@DSI.COM (Syd Weinstein) (07/06/89)
Am I alone in my problem with NN. I read news, using rn, by looking
at the subjects in a group and the reading those that interest me,
a bit at a time, then going to the next group. Sounded perfect
for NN, but...
1. All the command are capital letters. Those are hard to type,
and easy to forget and hit the lower case equivalent, thus marking
articles on and off I had no intention of doing so.
2. The default mode is to mark everything as read as soon as I go
off read the selected ones. I know there is a key to return to this
group, but, if I think I am done, I used the default one, now its
more difficult to go back and keep those unread that it marked as read.
I often read an article, decide I want to reply, then go look for
other replies to this article. I found that also harder to do using
nn. Again, I had to guess in advance that this is what I wanted to do.
I also miss the 'header' mode (or v mode) of rn,when I want to check out
a message.
I ran nn for one day and went back to rn. It didn't seem to offer
me much for all the administrative work it took to keep it running.
--
=====================================================================
Sydney S. Weinstein, CDP, CCP Elm Coordinator
Datacomp Systems, Inc. Voice: (215) 947-9900
syd@DSI.COM or {bpa,vu-vlsi}!dsinc!syd FAX: (215) 938-0235lamy@ai.utoronto.ca (Jean-Francois Lamy) (07/06/89)
syd@DSI.COM (Syd Weinstein) writes: >1. All the command are capital letters. Those are hard to type, >and easy to forget and hit the lower case equivalent, thus marking >articles on and off I had no intention of doing so. I seldom use the capital letter commands. I wrote a rntonn script that created an nn init file that made nn present the articles in the same sequence rn does, with new newsgroups at the bottom (you only need it once). I mostly go around hitting blank to skip menu pages and lower case letters to pick the articles I read. . and arrow keys aren't shifted on most terminals, either. rntonn is enclosed at the bottom. BE WARNED THAT IT WILL CATCH UP ON ALL YOUR NEWSGROUPS AND THAT I DECLINE RESPONSABILITY IF IT DOES ANYTHING YOU DON'T LIKE TO YOUR NEWSRC. BACK UP YOUR .newsrc YOURSELF BEFORE USING. >I often read an article, decide I want to reply, then go look for >other replies to this article. I found that also harder to do using >nn. Again, I had to guess in advance that this is what I wanted to do. use the "l" command. >I also miss the 'header' mode (or v mode) of rn,when I want to check out >a message. that's the "h" command. >I ran nn for one day and went back to rn. It didn't seem to offer >me much for all the administrative work it took to keep it running. RTLM (L=large:-). There is a lot of immensely useful stuff in there. I've been able to resubscribe to many newsgroups I had abandoned because of high noise. All the administrative work, really? nn may not be for everybody, just like rn, or any news reader one may design (after 4 years of heavy use, rn was starting to drive me nuts). The news reading style it offers *is* different, no doubt about that one. Jean-Francois Lamy lamy@ai.utoronto.ca, uunet!ai.utoronto.ca!lamy AI Group, Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto, Canada M5S 1A4 ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- #!/bin/sh - # rntonn - make a .newsrc that nn will understand. # create a .nn/init file that shows the groups in the same order # rn does, and shows new newsgroups at the end. # PATH=$PATH:/local/lib/news:/news/bin ; export PATH rmlist='/tmp/rntonn.*'.$$ cp $HOME/.newsrc /tmp/rntonn.1.$$ awk '{print $1}' /tmp/rntonn.1.$$ | sed -e 's/\([^:!]*\)\([:!]\).*/\1 \2/' | cat -n | sort +1 >/tmp/rntonn.2.$$ if [ -s /news/lib/active ]; then ACTIVE=/news/lib/active else if [ -s /local/share/news/active ]; then ACTIVE=/local/share/news/active fi fi sort < $ACTIVE | join -a1 -j2 2 -o 2.1 1.1 2.3 1.2 - /tmp/rntonn.2.$$ | awk '\ {if (NF != 2)\ printf("%s %s%s 1-%s\n", $1, $2, $3, $4 ); \ else \ print "99999", $1 "!"; \ }' - | sort -n | awk '{print $2,$3}' > $HOME/..newsrc mv -f $HOME/..newsrc $HOME/.newsrc ( if [ -s $HOME/.nn/init ] ; then sed -e '/^[ ]*sequence[ ]*/q' < $HOME/.nn/init else echo 'map menu ^n line+1' echo 'map menu ^p line-1' echo echo sequence fi sed -n '/:/s/:.*//p' $HOME/.newsrc echo NEW ) > /tmp/rntonn.1.$$ mv -f /tmp/rntonn.1.$$ $HOME/.nn/init rm $rmlist
fischer@netmbx.UUCP (Axel Fischer) (07/06/89)
In article <1150@sequent.cs.qmc.ac.uk> @nsfnet-relay.ac.uk:flash@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan) writes: >Normal group selction is clumsy; there's no way to find out which groups >have unread news, except by finding out *all* groups which have unread >news. You can page through groups, getting a whole slow screenful try "nncheck -t" at the csh Level ... -Axel -- Domain: fischer@netmbx.UUCP Europe: ...!tmpmbx!netmbx!fischer Rest of world: ...!uunet!pyramid!tmpmbx!netmbx!fischer =====> Beam me up, Scotty - there is no intelligent life down here ! <=====
david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- One of the vertebrae) (07/06/89)
How can using subject lines to select articles be good when articles
often have little to do with their subject line.
No, the correct way to select articles is with keywords, but the rub
is that it's hard to pick out good keywords. People on the net have
made references to studies which've proven that
it's hard for even trained keyword-ists to pick out good keywords
(The referenced paper concentrated on law journals, so
is there something uniquely different between law journals
and Usenet?)
it's hard for computer software to pick out good keywords.
Indeed! Picking out good keywords probably requires
understanding of the semantics present in the text. This
certainly hasn't, yet anyway, been encoded into a computer
program. Anybody from the NSA care to comment? ;-)
oh, this article is supposed to be about NN since that's what the Subject:
line says. But I can't think anything about it since I haven't used it
yet. However, it was NN which started off this train of thought, and it's
kind of globally about NN since I'm concerned that the only article selection
method, as I understand it, in NN is the subject line.
But then I kill articles based on subject lines all the time ... sigh
--
<- David Herron; an MMDF guy <david@ms.uky.edu>
<- ska: David le casse\*' {rutgers,uunet}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET
<-
<- New word for the day: Obnoxity -- an act of obnoxiousnessseindal@skinfaxe.diku.dk (Rene' Seindal) (07/06/89)
flash@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan) writes:
[complaints deleted]
First, if nn's style of news reading does not fit you, don't use it. There
are lots of news readers out there. Use one that does fit you reading style,
and if there are none, write one.
Second, the discussion on the net and on the nn-info mailinglist has (in my
eyes) revealed two major problems with nn. The first is the `Re^n' problem,
and I know Kim will change this if he is told often enough. The second
problem is the way nn marks articles as read. The current scheme is clearly
not sufficient, and it will have to be changed, so nn has at least facilities
comparable to rn's. Kim is well aware of this, and are working on it. You
can expect to see either a fix for it, or a new release, within a decent
amount of time. It is my impression that Kim is more interested in getting
this change out right, than in getting it out fast.
For those of you, that do not know, there is an nn-info mailinglist. Send
requests to join to nn-info-request@dkuug.dk, and submissions to
nn-info@dkuug.dk. As always, if you have problems or find bugs, send a
message to nn-bugs@dkuug.dk.
I can understand that Flash might fell a little (a lot?) frustrated, since the
ongoing communication between him and Kim hasn't been very constructive. On
the other hand, it is not a good idea to start a discussion with the author of
a program with the sentence ``Pretty useless.''
Rene' Seindal (seindal@diku.dk).jbuck@epimass.EPI.COM (Joe Buck) (07/07/89)
In article <4827@freja.diku.dk> seindal@skinfaxe.diku.dk (Rene' Seindal) writes: >Second, the discussion on the net and on the nn-info mailinglist has (in my >eyes) revealed two major problems with nn. The first is the `Re^n' problem, >and I know Kim will change this if he is told often enough. The second >problem is the way nn marks articles as read. The current scheme is clearly >not sufficient, and it will have to be changed, so nn has at least facilities >comparable to rn's. Kim is well aware of this, and are working on it. Great. For me, the primary deficiency of nn is the lack of an equivalent to rn's 'M' command -- the ability to flag certain articles so they'll hang around and I can deal with them later -- and the ability to stop halfway through a group, go read something else, and pick up where I left off. To convert the majority of rn users, nn will need to provide this capability. The news etiquette documents request that people read all articles in a group before following up, to avoid duplicating other people's words. rn's 'M' command makes this easy. >For those of you, that do not know, there is an nn-info mailinglist. Send >requests to join to nn-info-request@dkuug.dk, and submissions to >nn-info@dkuug.dk. As always, if you have problems or find bugs, send a >message to nn-bugs@dkuug.dk. If this list gets big, I suggest that a single US distribution point be set up to save money (no, I'm not volunteering). -- -- Joe Buck jbuck@epimass.epi.com, uunet!epimass.epi.com!jbuck
jonathan@cs.keele.ac.uk (Jonathan Knight) (07/07/89)
From article <1050@unocss.UUCP>, by fritz@unocss.UUCP (Tim Russell): > flash@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan) writes: > > Anyway, people who've been using vn and liking it will LOVE nn! I don't I read news by wandering from group to group and reading the articles that interest me. If I like the article I may go and have a look for a followup, if I get bored with the argument I may stop reading the followups and go look for something else. NN requires me to guess what I want to read before I start, otherwise I have to read an article, hit the = key to go back to the menu and then select another one to read and so on. The keys are all uppercase which is a real pain to keep typing and the administration is huge compared to rn or vn. I used it twice, and then went back to vn. Nicley written bit of code, it just doesn't suit my newsreading style. -- ______ JANET :jonathan@uk.ac.keele.cs Jonathan Knight, / BITNET:jonathan%cs.kl.ac.uk@ukacrl Department of Computer Science / _ __ other :jonathan@cs.keele.ac.uk University of Keele, Keele, (_/ (_) / / UUCP :...!ukc!kl-cs!jonathan Staffordshire. ST5 5BG. U.K.
seindal@skinfaxe.diku.dk (Rene' Seindal) (07/07/89)
A possible scheme I have talked with Kim about includes the following: articles are marked as read whenever you leave a group, but in different ways, depending on how you leave the group. A usual, `X' will show you the selected articles, or, if no articles are selected, move on to the next group. In this case all articles appearing in the menu pages for the group are, and will be, marked as read. The `N' key is changed slightly. Now the `N' key will show you selected articles before moving to the next group. This is changed, so you move directly to the next group, but the articles you have selected, and all articles on menu pages you have not seen yet, will be unread, and will therefore still around the next time you read news. Whether we will have to make additional changes is a bit unclear. I could imagine a command much like `X', but with the addition of putting you back in the current group when you have read all the selected articles. This would make it easier to delay replies and follow-ups until all the relevant articles have been read. I usually do this with the `=' key, but it is a bit annoying to have to remember it every time. On the other hand, a command to move to the next group, leaving all articles in the current group unread, should not be necessary, as it can be done with `~@N' (cancel all selections, reverse all selections (effectively selecting everything), and move to the next group, leaving selected articles unread). These changes will, no matter how they are done, force a change in the rc format. I do not know whether Kim has decided which format will be used. rn's .newsrc format might be usable (I don't know it in sufficient details to say). These things are merely Kims and my ideas of how the read/unread problem might be solved. This is to say that the final solution might be different from what I have written here. If you have ideas or suggestions, send them to nn-bugs@dkuug.dk, in which case both Kim and I will receive it. Rene' Seindal (seindal@diku.dk). BTW, if any of you have tried to get in touch with Kim recently, you have probably failed, since the Danish EUnet mail backbone is down. I do not know how long this will last.
storm@texas.dk (Kim F. Storm) (07/12/89)
In article <1050@cjsa.WA.COM> jeff@cjsa.WA.COM (Jeffery Small) writes: >I tried to implement a "select-all" macro as: > define 1 > unselect-all > select-invert > continue > end >This worked great until I got to a multi-page menu of articles. The following macro will do what you want (there is no reason to unselect-all first): define 1 find "." continue end -- Kim F. Storm storm@texas.dk Tel +45 429 174 00 Texas Instruments, Marielundvej 46E, DK-2730 Herlev, Denmark No news is good news, but nn is better!
ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) (07/26/89)
In article <1050@unocss.UUCP> fritz@unocss.UUCP (Tim Russell) writes: | flash@cs.qmc.ac.uk (Flash Sheridan) writes: | | >If you've already used rn seriously, don't bother with nn. As in my summary, to each his own! | I like the method of reading that nn uses: I can see all subjects and | pick from the ones that look interesting. RN drives me nuts showing me | three lines for each article whether I care about the subject or not, and | no overview. NN also sorts by subject. Have you never heard of rn's '=' command, which the user may customize. Mine prints out subject, length, and author. One reason that we have never bothered installing NN was for its non-standard .newsrc file format. By the way, has this been changed in version 6.3, or the succeeding patches. Thanks. Ralph P. Sobek Disclaimer: The above ruminations are my own. ralph@laas.laas.fr Addresses are ordered by importance. ralph@laas.uucp, or ...!uunet!mcvax!laas!ralph If all else fails, try: SOBEK@FRMOP11.BITNET sobek@eclair.Berkeley.EDU =============================================================================== Upon the instruments of death the sunlight brightly gleams. -- King Crimson
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (07/27/89)
In article <402@laas.laas.fr> ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) writes: >| I like the method of reading that nn uses: I can see all subjects and >| pick from the ones that look interesting. RN drives me nuts showing me >| three lines for each article whether I care about the subject or not, and >| no overview. NN also sorts by subject. >Have you never heard of rn's '=' command, which the user may >customize. Mine prints out subject, length, and author. Just make sure you have a pencil and paper handy so you can write down all the numbers of the subjects you want to read. NN nicely eliminates that by making the computer your pencil and paper. It also, IMHO, sorts everything nicely so all related subjects are next to each other, eliminating searching thru all the subjects for the same thing. >One reason that we have never bothered installing NN was for its >non-standard .newsrc file format. By the way, has this been changed >in version 6.3, or the succeeding patches. Thanks. In maybe 6.4 or so, whenever Kim gets to it, NN will support leaving certain articles unread (right Kim?), which will probably nead a different format, maybe even the *standard* .newsrc file format. What's the big deal about having a different format anyways? If you use NN why even need to bother with RN? -kareth.
storm@texas.dk (Kim F. Storm) (07/27/89)
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: >In article <402@laas.laas.fr> ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) writes: >>One reason that we have never bothered installing NN was for its >>non-standard .newsrc file format. By the way, has this been changed >>in version 6.3, or the succeeding patches. Thanks. >In maybe 6.4 or so, whenever Kim gets to it, NN will support leaving certain >articles unread (right Kim?), which will probably nead a different format, >maybe even the *standard* .newsrc file format. nn 6.4 (or perhaps even 6.3.5 if I find the time in the next few days) will support leaving individual articles unread. But the implementation is based on the existing "saved selection" files - not the .newsrc. > What's the big deal about >having a different format anyways? If you use NN why even need to bother with >RN? I have asked time and again for somebody (who needs it) to write full .newsrc support for nn if they really think it is that important! Just as you say, I have lived with nn's "non-standard" .nn/rc file for 5 years now, because I don't bother about a .newsrc I don't ever use! But nn can maintain your .newsrc to *some* extent... -- Kim F. Storm storm@texas.dk Tel +45 429 174 00 Texas Instruments, Marielundvej 46E, DK-2730 Herlev, Denmark No news is good news, but nn is better!
ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) (07/27/89)
In article <2794@mace.cc.purdue.edu> asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: | In article <402@laas.laas.fr> I write and quote: | >| I like the method of reading that nn uses: I can see all subjects and | >| pick from the ones that look interesting. RN drives me nuts showing me | >| three lines for each article whether I care about the subject or not, and | >| no overview. NN also sorts by subject. | | >Have you never heard of rn's '=' command, which the user may | >customize. Mine prints out subject, length, and author. | | Just make sure you have a pencil and paper handy so you can write down all the | numbers of the subjects you want to read. NN nicely eliminates that by making | the computer your pencil and paper. It also, IMHO, sorts everything nicely so | all related subjects are next to each other, eliminating searching thru all | the subjects for the same thing. Likewise for rn! If you find an interesting subject, with ^N you get the next message with the same subject. Don't sell it short; it *also* has powerful regexp patterns that you can enter (or better yet program into the system). | >One reason that we have never bothered installing NN was for its | >non-standard .newsrc file format. By the way, has this been changed | >in version 6.3, or the succeeding patches. Thanks. | | In maybe 6.4 or so, whenever Kim gets to it, NN will support leaving certain | articles unread (right Kim?), which will probably nead a different format, | maybe even the *standard* .newsrc file format. What's the big deal about | having a different format anyways? If you use NN why even need to bother with Kareth, please don't be so naive. One needs a *standard*, even possibly a *standard* .newsrc file. When, for example, you're on a network with a plethora of newsreaders which are not uniformly distributed over all machines, but *all* can read your .newsrc file. Furthermore, if you go over certain groups regularly with 'cron' it would be overkill to use either NN or rn. Don't get me wrong. I do not believe that `rn' is the sendall for all us news users. I'm sure that NN has some desirable features. And what about TMNN(?)? Does it exist? I would like to see an advanced news reader running under X-windows or Sunview which would be programmable, and would have high-level and efficient KILL mechanisms. After all, one spends most one's time straining 90% of the news, just to get at the 5-10% that one's interested in. Readnews and vnews might be considered as first generation. Rn and NN can be considered as second generation news readers. So what does the third generation news reader offer us? Ralph P. Sobek Disclaimer: The above ruminations are my own. ralph@laas.laas.fr Addresses are ordered by importance. ralph@laas.uucp, or ...!uunet!mcvax!laas!ralph If all else fails, try: SOBEK@FRMOP11.BITNET sobek@eclair.Berkeley.EDU =============================================================================== Upon the instruments of death the sunlight brightly gleams. -- King Crimson
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (07/27/89)
In article <2794@mace.cc.purdue.edu>, asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: > What's the big deal about > having a different format anyways? If you use NN why even need to bother with > RN? vn, rn, vnews, and readnews all use the same format. Why can't nn? How does nn do on a non-cursor-addressible screen? -- Peter da Silva, Xenix Support, Ferranti International Controls Corporation. Business: peter@ficc.uu.net, +1 713 274 5180. | "...helping make the world Personal: peter@sugar.hackercorp.com. `-_-' | a quote-free zone..." Quote: Have you hugged your wolf today? 'U` | -- hjm@cernvax.cern.ch
scs@itivax.iti.org (Steve Simmons) (07/28/89)
Given there's been a bit of nn-bashing here, it's worth pointing out a neat feature: Sometime earlier today there was a posting on Robert Morris being officially charged w.r.t the internet worm. This afternoon I decided I wanted a copy. The following command nn -mxX -sworm all caused nn to scan ALL subject lines of ALL the news, looking for the keyword 'worm'. It found a list of about 18 articles and presented the subject lines for me to pick and choose from. Total time from hitting return to getting the list -- 44 seconds. This is on a loaded VAX 785 with about 40MB of news on line. nn is like rn in that it has boatloads of options. A brief usage will not give you a real feel for all it can do any more than a brief usage of rn would. The most common comment I got from my users when pushing them towards rn was "so what", followed several weeks later by "hey, I like this!". My own reaction to NN has been similar -- "so what", followed by a growing like. -- Steve Simmons scs@vax3.iti.org Industrial Technology Institute Ann Arbor, MI. "Velveeta -- the Spam of Cheeses!" -- Uncle Bonsai
brent@capmkt.COM (Brent Chapman) (07/28/89)
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: >In maybe 6.4 or so, whenever Kim gets to it, NN will support leaving certain >articles unread (right Kim?), which will probably nead a different format, >maybe even the *standard* .newsrc file format. What's the big deal about >having a different format anyways? If you use NN why even need to bother with >RN? It's important because "rn" isn't the only thing that expects a .newsrc file. The example that springs immediately to mind (and I'm sure there are others) is the "arbitron" program that gathers the data used to calculate the various USENET readership and propogation statistics. Arbitron works by reading the .newsrc file of all the users on the system. If they're using nn, they don't have a .newsrc (or they have one that hasn't been touched in a while, if they used to use rn), and thus don't get counted in the survey. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Capital Market Technology, Inc. Computer Operations Manager 1995 University Ave., Suite 390 brent@capmkt.com Berkeley, CA 94704 {apple,lll-tis,uunet}!capmkt!brent Phone: 415/540-6400
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (07/28/89)
In article <404@laas.laas.fr> ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) writes: >In article <2794@mace.cc.purdue.edu> asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: >| >Have you never heard of rn's '=' command, which the user may >| >customize. Mine prints out subject, length, and author. >| >| Just make sure you have a pencil and paper handy so you can write down all the >| numbers of the subjects you want to read. NN nicely eliminates that by making >| the computer your pencil and paper. It also, IMHO, sorts everything nicely so >| all related subjects are next to each other, eliminating searching thru all >| the subjects for the same thing. >Likewise for rn! If you find an interesting subject, with ^N you get >the next message with the same subject. Don't sell it short; it Yes, but you have to now about ^N. NN allows any novice to easily see all similar subjects right there without having to know about any fancier features. >*also* has powerful regexp patterns that you can enter (or better yet >program into the system). Well, I'm not sure how powerful NN's are. But it does have em, if you need em. Or you can just hit '*' on the current subject you are on and get it to match all like subjects. Or of course, there is the auto-selection feature. And along with the auto-kill, they are nicely configurable for a certain time period (like a few days, months, or all the time) which I don't think rn can do. >| In maybe 6.4 or so, whenever Kim gets to it, NN will support leaving certain >| articles unread (right Kim?), which will probably nead a different format, >| maybe even the *standard* .newsrc file format. What's the big deal about >| having a different format anyways? If you use NN why even need to bother with >Kareth, please don't be so naive. One needs a *standard*, even Well, I'm not. >possibly a *standard* .newsrc file. When, for example, you're on a >network with a plethora of newsreaders which are not uniformly >distributed over all machines, but *all* can read your .newsrc file. But only one .newsrc can only apply to one machine right? The numbers in it aren't transferable around machines are they? (Neither are nn's ither) Why would you need to read news on all the different machines? I've got a dozen plus accounts on different machines, and only read from one. I only use one newsreader (nn now) so I don't need to ever deal with rn or all the others. Isn't that the way most people will work? Use one newsreader only? If I used rn, why use readnews? or vnews, gnews, etc. Maybe there are some people who do do that. But I don't see a exactly why nn needs to use a .newsrc format unless you are specifically going to be using both nn and rn/vnews/etc. which would seem odd to me. Don't get me wrong, I see a need for NN to be able to use .nesrc files correctly. It'd surely help in getting a wider acceptance of it. However looking at the NN rc file and the .newsrc file makes me think the .newsrc version is messed up. NN's rc file is designed on a very structured basis. Everything goes in a certain place, column, etc. A program can quickly flash thru the file, and not have to read thru the line, checking out each column for the : or the !. I'd think there is some speed advantage to NN's way of doing things. But I too would like to see NN be able to support the .newsrc way of things (even if it is slower). But as I see it right now, I don't see the reason why NN should HAVE to support a .newsrc format. If you can explain that to me, please do. I'd like to understand the reasoning. Email please tho. >Don't get me wrong. I do not believe that `rn' is the sendall for all >us news users. I'm sure that NN has some desirable features. And That it does. >what about TMNN(?)? Does it exist? I would like to see an advanced Haven't heard of this. >news reader running under X-windows or Sunview which would be >programmable, and would have high-level and efficient KILL mechanisms. >After all, one spends most one's time straining 90% of the news, just >to get at the 5-10% that one's interested in. I 100% agree with you here. BTW, I've seen in the code of NN something about if the name is nnemacs, it will run something else. This feature (?) whatever it is, hasn't been implemented yet. And emacs version of NN? Hmm, interesting. >Readnews and vnews might be considered as first generation. Rn and NN >can be considered as second generation news readers. So what does the I might go so far as to say NN is third generation with it's menu oriented interface. >third generation news reader offer us? Or fourth generation? Something like HAL maybe? :) -kareth
seindal@skinfaxe.diku.dk (Rene' Seindal) (07/28/89)
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: > In article <2794@mace.cc.purdue.edu>, asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: > > What's the big deal about > > having a different format anyways? If you use NN why even need to bother with > > RN? > vn, rn, vnews, and readnews all use the same format. Why can't nn? Currently nn has a very limited support for maintaining a .newsrc. Kim has said several times, that if somebody implements full .newsrc support and sends the changes to him, he will put it in the distribution. If you all want .newsrc support so badly, why doesn't one of you do it? Do you really expect us to implement something we would never use? If we did it, would you expect it to work, given that we don't use it? Rene' Seindal (seindal@diku.dk).
mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) (07/28/89)
In article <2803@mace.cc.purdue.edu> asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: > >possibly a *standard* .newsrc file. When, for example, you're on a > >network with a plethora of newsreaders which are not uniformly > >distributed over all machines, but *all* can read your .newsrc file. > > But only one .newsrc can only apply to one machine right? The numbers in it > aren't transferable around machines are they? (Neither are nn's ither) Why > would you need to read news on all the different machines? I've got a dozen > plus accounts on different machines, and only read from one. [...] Not true on networks with NNTP servers and clients. The article numbers are consistent across all clients using the same NNTP server, and on the server itself if it permits local news reading. The same is true if news reader client systems mount SPOOLNEWS using NFS or other distributed file system schemes; the article numbers will be shared there as well. In distributed environments people often read news on more than one machine, depending on where they are sitting or what they might be working on, and most, I'm sure, would like continuity across systems of the read/unread status of articles in groups they read. -- Michael C. Berch mcb@tis.llnl.gov / uunet!tis.llnl.gov!mcb
asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) (07/28/89)
In article <327@ncis.tis.llnl.gov> mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) writes: >In article <2803@mace.cc.purdue.edu> asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: >> But only one .newsrc can only apply to one machine right? The numbers in it >> aren't transferable around machines are they? (Neither are nn's ither) Why >> would you need to read news on all the different machines? I've got a dozen >> plus accounts on different machines, and only read from one. [...] >Not true on networks with NNTP servers and clients. The article >numbers are consistent across all clients using the same NNTP server, >and on the server itself if it permits local news reading. The same >[...] >In distributed environments people often read news on more than one >machine, depending on where they are sitting or what they might be >[...] Michael, Thanks for informing me of this feature of systems. The systems that I use are not set up on networks like NNTP, so I really don't know much about that. I can see the problems you can encounter in that type of situation. In such an environment, is it necessary to use different news readers? (the readers are stored on each client, and may or may not have what you regularly use?) Or are the newsreaders run off the server? If they're run off the server, I'd see no problem as you wouldn't need to switch news programs. I can understand that aspect. Kim's offer on writing something to handle that still holds as he (seems to me) busy with correcting/enhancing/etc other features of NN. Well, hmm, maybe I'll even give a shot at it. Still seems to me that NN's approach to handling the rc file (vs. .newsrc) is more efficient. Maybe it's time for a new standard? (Yeah, right, I can see the flames now.) Okay, okay. You've convinced me of the validity of needing a .newsrc. Now anybody gonna help me or Kim or somebody to write something up to use it? If you had a program that could convert back and forth between .newsrc and NN's rc would that be enough? Or not? -kareth.
cathyf@lost.Rice.EDU (Catherine A. Foulston) (07/28/89)
> > > >> But only one .newsrc can only apply to one machine right? The numbers in it > >> aren't transferable around machines are they? (Neither are nn's ither) Why > >> would you need to read news on all the different machines? I've got a dozen > >> plus accounts on different machines, and only read from one. [...] > > >Not true on networks with NNTP servers and clients. The article > >numbers are consistent across all clients using the same NNTP server, > >and on the server itself if it permits local news reading. The same > >[...] > > >In distributed environments people often read news on more than one > >machine, depending on where they are sitting or what they might be > >[...] > > Thanks for informing me of this feature of systems. The systems that I use > are not set up on networks like NNTP, so I really don't know much about that. > I can see the problems you can encounter in that type of situation. In such > an environment, is it necessary to use different news readers? (the readers are > stored on each client, and may or may not have what you regularly use?) Or > are the newsreaders run off the server? If they're run off the server, I'd > see no problem as you wouldn't need to switch news programs. Well, sometimes it isn't *necessary* to use different newsreaders, but it may be extremely desirable. Most students here can get a workstation most of the time, but sometimes they have to use regular terminals. (Imagine a full terminal room at semester's end.) If I can get a workstation I like to use xrn. If I can't, I'll use a terminal - and of course xrn is Right Out. It would be a real pain if xrn used a different .newsrc format from rn (or nn, or whatever one wanted to use on a terminal). And even a program to convert between the two, as you suggested later in your posting, would be a bit painful. Okay, I *could* use rn in an xterm, but I don't always want to. xrn has its advantages too. Yes, I know this *particular* argument does not apply to, say, rn vs. nn, but we could go on forever coming up with reasons why you would/wouldn't switch newsreaders. My point is that it's hard to predict such things in advance, given the wide variety of architectures/systems/networks/transport mechanisms, etc. that are used with usenet news. So I think it would be helpful to have all newsreaders use the same format when possible. I'm staying out of the discussion of what that format should be. Please note that this is NOT a flame on nn. (It's not intended to be a flame on anybody or anything, for that matter.) I haven't tried nn, and its format may indeed be better. Maybe I should hack all my other newsreaders to use nn's format! (1/2 :-) , 1/2 serious) cathy :) Cathy Foulston -- cathyf@rice.edu -- {backbone}!rice!cathyf Disclaimer: I'm a student - I don't even KNOW Rice University's opinion.
pell@isy.liu.se (P{r Emanuelsson) (07/28/89)
ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) writes: >After all, one spends most one's time straining 90% of the news, just >to get at the 5-10% that one's interested in. That's the rn philosophy. With nn it's the other way around: fast selection of the 5-10% you're interested in. Hit spacebar and the other 90% goes away. Now, where is news.software when we need it?! /Pell -- "Don't think; let the machine do it for you!" -- E. C. Berkeley Dept. of Electrical Engineering pell@isy.liu.se University of Linkoping, Sweden ...!uunet!isy.liu.se!pell
pell@isy.liu.se (P{r Emanuelsson) (07/28/89)
mcb@ncis.tis.llnl.gov (Michael C. Berch) writes: >In distributed environments people often read news on more than one >machine, depending on where they are sitting or what they might be >working on, and most, I'm sure, would like continuity across systems >of the read/unread status of articles in groups they read. You mean that you use different newsreaders on different systems? I guess it could happen if you want to use e.g. xrn on a workstation and nn on a terminal. But nn is its own window system, in a way, and works fine in a terminal window/emulator. And I guess that it won't be long until someone writes an xnn provided it's worth doing. I can see no reason not to scrap rn now. I've done it here for all our users. /Pell -- "Don't think; let the machine do it for you!" -- E. C. Berkeley Dept. of Electrical Engineering pell@isy.liu.se University of Linkoping, Sweden ...!uunet!isy.liu.se!pell
scott@dtscp1.UUCP (Scott Barman) (07/29/89)
In article <402@laas.laas.fr> ralph@laas.laas.fr writes: >Have you never heard of rn's '=' command, which the user may >customize. Mine prints out subject, length, and author. How? Please do not tell me to RTFM. I have it sitting here next to me and I don't see it. If it is there, please point out where. -- scott barman {gatech, emory}!dtscp1!scott
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (07/29/89)
In article <4712@freja.diku.dk>, seindal@skinfaxe.diku.dk (Rene' Seindal) writes: > If you all want .newsrc support so badly, why doesn't one of you do it? I have .newsrc support. What I don't have is NN. And I don't want NN that badly... really what I want is the TMN version of vnews, as it's been described to me. -- Peter da Silva, Xenix Support, Ferranti International Controls Corporation. Business: peter@ficc.uu.net, +1 713 274 5180. | "...helping make the world Personal: peter@sugar.hackercorp.com. `-_-' | a quote-free zone..." Quote: Have you hugged your wolf today? 'U` | -- hjm@cernvax.cern.ch
amanda@intercon.uu.net (Amanda Walker) (07/29/89)
In article <1989Jul28.130542.26274@isy.liu.se>, pell@isy.liu.se (P{r Emanuelsson) writes: > ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) writes: > >After all, one spends most one's time straining 90% of the news, just > >to get at the 5-10% that one's interested in. > > That's the rn philosophy. With nn it's the other way around: fast selection > of the 5-10% you're interested in. Hit spacebar and the other 90% goes away. Actually, they're both useful. As long as they're fast, kill files are great, since sometimes there are things you will *never* be interested in, and if these get thrown out early, it reduces the size of that 90%. There are also things that you will *always* be interested in, and it's very nice to have them brought to your attention automatically. To take a real life example (gasp! :-)): I read comp.text, since I use TeX and LaTeX a lot. I have utterly no interest in troff and nroff, though, so what I do is to have anything containing "roff" in the subject thrown out right off the bat, so that I don't even have to scan its subject line, much less read the article. On the other hand, I always want to see the TeXhax Digest, so I have anything saying "TeXhax Digest" (without a "Re:" at the beginning :-)) highlighted with a light gray background, so that it stands out real well. Of course, this also goes to show that it can be useful to write your own newsreader :-)... -- Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation -- amanda@intercon.uu.net | ...!uunet!intercon!amanda
ambar@bloom-beacon.mit.edu (Jean Marie Diaz) (07/29/89)
From: asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth)
Date: 27 Jul 89 22:14:28 GMT
But only one .newsrc can only apply to one machine right? The numbers in it
aren't transferable around machines are they? (Neither are nn's ither) Why
would you need to read news on all the different machines?
.newsrc's are certainly transportable among various machines -- if all
those machines are speaking to a given nntp server.
I've got a dozen
plus accounts on different machines, and only read from one. I only
use one newsreader (nn now) so I don't need to ever deal with rn or
all the others. Isn't that the way most people will work? Use one
newsreader only? If I used rn, why use readnews? or vnews, gnews,
etc. Maybe there are some people who do do that. But I don't see a
exactly why nn needs to use a .newsrc format unless you are
specifically going to be using both nn and rn/vnews/etc. which would
seem odd to me.
In general -- and this isn't meant as an insult -- you seem to have a
very limited view of what people do with netnews. I use GNUS for most
of my netnews reading; rn, when dialed in at 1200 baud (or on overloaded
systems where using Emacs is rude at best), and vnews when debugging
TMNN :-) Different newsreaders are "best" at different tasks, so the
experienced user will swap around, as seems best to her/him.
GNUS would seem to set a good example for nn to follow -- it keeps a
.newsrc.el file around, which is its preferred format of the .newsrc
file, AND it keeps the .newsrc file up to date, so that I can use it
with other readers! (This was my main reason for switching from Gnews
to GNUS, BTW.) Why couldn't nn maintain and use a .newsrc.nn file,
updating the .newsrc file upon exit? It would seem to be a solution
that keeps everyone happy.
And no, I haven't put up nn yet. Not only does its nntp support not
compile out-of-the-box (yes, this is patchlevel 4), but the fact that it
doesn't write completely compatible .newsrc files means that *I* won't
be installing it anytime soon... I have too many naive users who would
get themselves into a pickle and want me to get them out.
AMBAR
ambar@bloom-beacon.mit.edu {mit-eddie,uunet}!bloom-beacon!ambarlyndon@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Lyndon Nerenberg) (07/30/89)
In article <2794@mace.cc.purdue.edu> asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: [ ... ] >maybe even the *standard* .newsrc file format. What's the big deal about >having a different format anyways? If you use NN why even need to bother with >RN? Supporting the standard .newsrc is necessary if you want arbitron to generate reasonable statistics. I don't think Brian Reid should be responsible for hacking arbitron every time someone comes up with a new and improved .foorc file format. Even if a news reader uses it's own format database, it shouldn't be that difficult to maintain a parallel .newsrc file. -- Lyndon Nerenberg VE6BBM / Computing Services / Athabasca University {alberta,decwrl,ncc}!atha!lyndon || lyndon@cs.AthabascaU.CA It's 2:00 A.M.; Nobody looks ugly.
allbery@nc386.UUCP (Brandon S. Allbery) (07/31/89)
In article <2794@mace.cc.purdue.edu>, asd@mace (Kareth) writes: +--------------- | In maybe 6.4 or so, whenever Kim gets to it, NN will support leaving certain | articles unread (right Kim?), which will probably nead a different format, | maybe even the *standard* .newsrc file format. What's the big deal about | having a different format anyways? If you use NN why even need to bother with | RN? +--------------- Because while I usually read all of the available news, sometimes I want to pick and choose the important stuff now and save the rest for later. NN would be useful for that... except that it marks everything as read, so I can't come back later with rn and read it. So I bit-bucketed the thing. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc allbery@NCoast.ORG uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu * This message brought to you courtesy the "Watcher" for the 4th NCoast *
syd@DSI.COM (Syd Weinstein) (07/31/89)
My workaround for this problem is that I wrote a perl script that
takes the .nn/rc file and updates my .newsrc from that. I know,
its a kludge, but it lets arbitron, and our other local managment
items handle things correctly.
Here it is, its not very long, you run the up shell script
and it updates the .newsrc file.
#!/bin/sh
# shar: Shell Archiver (v1.22)
#
# Run the following text with /bin/sh to create:
# bin/up
# bin/updnsrc.p
#
sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > bin/up &&
Xperl ~/bin/updnsrc.p > ~/.newsrc.new
Xmv ~/.newsrc ~/.newsrc.bak
Xmv ~/.newsrc.new ~/.newsrc
SHAR_EOF
chmod 0700 bin/up || echo "restore of bin/up fails"
sed 's/^X//' << 'SHAR_EOF' > bin/updnsrc.p &&
X#!/usr/local/bin/perl
Xeval "exec /usr/local/bin/perl /usr/local/bin/bdf $*"
X if $running_via_sh;
X
X$home=$ENV{"HOME"};
Xdie "cannot open nn file" unless open(nn, "$home/.nn/rc");
Xwhile (<nn>)
X {
X chop;
X ($flag, $max, $group) = split;
X $flags{$group} = $flag;
X $maxs{$group} = $max + 0 if $flag eq "+";
X }
Xclose(nn);
X
Xdie "cannot open nn file" unless open(rn, "$home/.newsrc");
Xwhile (<rn>)
X {
X if (/:/) {
X ($group, $rest) = split(/:/);
X $flag = $flags{$group};
X if ( $flag eq "+")
X {
X $max = $maxs{$group};
X print "$group: 1-$max\n" if $max;
X print "$group:\n" unless $max;
X }
X else
X {
X print "$group!\n";
X }
X }
X elsif (/!/) {
X ($group, $rest) = split(/!/);
X $flag = $flags{$group};
X if ( $flag eq "+")
X {
X $max = $maxs{$group};
X print "$group: 1-$max\n" if $max;
X print "$group:\n" unless $max;
X }
X else
X {
X print "$group!\n";
X }
X }
X else
X {
X print "$_";
X }
X }
X
SHAR_EOF
chmod 0755 bin/updnsrc.p || echo "restore of bin/updnsrc.p fails"
exit 0
--
=====================================================================
Sydney S. Weinstein, CDP, CCP Elm Coordinator
Datacomp Systems, Inc. Voice: (215) 947-9900
syd@DSI.COM or {bpa,vu-vlsi}!dsinc!syd FAX: (215) 938-0235nagel@ics.uci.edu (Mark Nagel) (07/31/89)
syd@DSI.COM (Syd Weinstein) writes: >My workaround for this problem is that I wrote a perl script that >takes the .nn/rc file and updates my .newsrc from that. I know, >its a kludge, but it lets arbitron, and our other local managment >items handle things correctly. [perl script deleted] But nn does exactly what your script does if you have the variable newsrc set in your .nn/init file (or in the global init file). -- Mark Nagel UC Irvine, Department of Information and Computer Science ARPA: nagel@ics.uci.edu UUCP: ucbvax!ucivax!nagel
jbayer@ispi.UUCP (Jonathan Bayer) (08/01/89)
bernd@actisb.UUCP (Bernd-Gunter Nitzler) writes: >If someone is interrested in a special version of "arbitron" which >also scans the .nn/rc files then I can mail one. Why don't you post it? JB -- Jonathan Bayer Beware: The light at the end of the Intelligent Software Products, Inc. tunnel may be an oncoming dragon 500 Oakwood Ave. ...uunet!ispi!root Roselle Park, NJ 07204 (201) 245-5922 jbayer@ispi.UUCP
allbery@nc386.UUCP (Brandon S. Allbery) (08/02/89)
Sigh. When my BS-meter wrapped itself around the stops the second time on this article, I just *had* to respond. In article <2803@mace.cc.purdue.edu>, asd@mace (Kareth) writes: +--------------- | In article <404@laas.laas.fr> ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) writes: | >Likewise for rn! If you find an interesting subject, with ^N you get | >the next message with the same subject. Don't sell it short; it | | Yes, but you have to now about ^N. NN allows any novice to easily see all | similar subjects right there without having to know about any fancier | features. +--------------- No, you don't: put -S in the global RNINIT file and forget about it. The system administrator needs to know about -S, but a system administrator who doesn't RTFM is (IMHO) too dangerous to be allowed to administrate. +--------------- | em. Or you can just hit '*' on the current subject you are on and get it to | match all like subjects. Or of course, there is the auto-selection feature. +--------------- -S (^N) does this automatically. +--------------- | And along with the auto-kill, they are nicely configurable for a certain time | period (like a few days, months, or all the time) which I don't think rn can | do. +--------------- Not yet. In the meantime, check out the GNU Emacs implementation, Gnews. +--------------- | >possibly a *standard* .newsrc file. When, for example, you're on a | >network with a plethora of newsreaders which are not uniformly | >distributed over all machines, but *all* can read your .newsrc file. | | But only one .newsrc can only apply to one machine right? The numbers in it | aren't transferable around machines are they? (Neither are nn's ither) Why +--------------- Duh. Ever hear of NNTP? And yes, it works even over heterogeneous networks, where it is not guaranteed that all newsreaders are available on all machines. +--------------- | would you need to read news on all the different machines? I've got a dozen | plus accounts on different machines, and only read from one. I only use one | newsreader (nn now) so I don't need to ever deal with rn or all the others. | Isn't that the way most people will work? Use one newsreader only? If I used +--------------- Depends. Some people really do use heterogeneous networks, and a single standard .newsrc format makes life a lot simpler for them. And nn gets roundfiled because it doesn't work right in that environment. +--------------- | do do that. But I don't see a exactly why nn needs to use a .newsrc format | unless you are specifically going to be using both nn and rn/vnews/etc. which | would seem odd to me. +--------------- Odd to you doesn't mean odd to everyone else. Sometimes it means "necessary" to others. +--------------- | looking at the NN rc file and the .newsrc file makes me think the .newsrc | version is messed up. NN's rc file is designed on a very structured basis. | Everything goes in a certain place, column, etc. A program can quickly flash +--------------- Oh, great, next you'll claim that the Unix file system needs hard-coded file types too. The .newsrc can be formatted for viewing via a simple awk or sed script or a trivial perl script. So? Some of us think "tools". +--------------- | doing things. But I too would like to see NN be able to support the .newsrc | way of things (even if it is slower). But as I see it right now, I don't see +--------------- Specious claim. The .newsrc may be "slower", but very little so -- and it is more robust, since a "this must be in this column" file format can be hopelessly deranged by a single missing/added space. +--------------- | >Don't get me wrong. I do not believe that `rn' is the sendall for all | >us news users. I'm sure that NN has some desirable features. And | | That it does. +--------------- Desirable to some of us in some circumstances. But nn isn't the be-all and end-all of news-reading technology, either. +--------------- | >what about TMNN(?)? Does it exist? I would like to see an advanced | | Haven't heard of this. +--------------- It's in late beta-testing, from what I hear -- it may be released soon. I dunno, I'm holding out for rn 5.0 and using Gnews right now because of its flexibility. +--------------- | >Readnews and vnews might be considered as first generation. Rn and NN | >can be considered as second generation news readers. So what does the | | I might go so far as to say NN is third generation with it's menu oriented | interface. +--------------- If that's your argument, "vn" gets the title -- nn is the newcomer. And the menu-oriented interface, as pretty as it is, is implemented atrociously. If lack of curses is a problem, lift the screen code from vnews, for crying out loud! Nn insisted on taking a longer-than-necessary time to redraw my screen, then discarded any keystrokes made when the screen was compelete enough for me to read but not quite finished yet because nn was repainting something that didn't need it. A few days of that and I removed it from my system, sources, binaries, database and all. If I ever need such an interface, be assured I will look to vn first. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc allbery@NCoast.ORG uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu * This message brought to you courtesy the "Watcher" for the 4th NCoast * "ncoast #4 regenerates into ncoast #5 on 8/6/89!" -- the Watcher (aka nc386)
allbery@nc386.UUCP (Brandon S. Allbery) (08/02/89)
In article <2804@mace.cc.purdue.edu>, asd@mace (Kareth) writes: +--------------- | Thanks for informing me of this feature of systems. The systems that I use | are not set up on networks like NNTP, so I really don't know much about that. | I can see the problems you can encounter in that type of situation. In such | an environment, is it necessary to use different news readers? (the readers are | stored on each client, and may or may not have what you regularly use?) Or | are the newsreaders run off the server? If they're run off the server, I'd | see no problem as you wouldn't need to switch news programs. +--------------- Think "heterogeneous network". Not all, or even necessarily most, networks, are all capable of running the same binaries on every machine. And rlogin and telnet can be inefficient compared to NNTP, or slow in the case of a remote NNTP connection. The real world is not as cut-and-dried as you think; if it were, NNTP probably wouldn't even be necessary because everyone would simply mount someone else's spool directory. +--------------- | me that NN's approach to handling the rc file (vs. .newsrc) is more efficient. +--------------- Not that much more efficient for the loss of flexibility. The cost of searching for a colon or exclamation mark via a program isn't very high in this case. +--------------- | Okay, okay. You've convinced me of the validity of needing a .newsrc. Now | anybody gonna help me or Kim or somebody to write something up to use it? If | you had a program that could convert back and forth between .newsrc and NN's | rc would that be enough? Or not? +--------------- Not enough; NN already does this to some extent (set newsrc), but LOSES the information placed there by other newsreaders. THAT is the problem. ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc allbery@NCoast.ORG uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu * This message brought to you courtesy the "Watcher" for the 4th NCoast * "ncoast #4 regenerates into ncoast #5 on 8/6/89!" -- the Watcher (aka nc386)
amanda@intercon.uu.net (Amanda Walker) (08/03/89)
I'm afraid I'm going to have to side with Brandon here. I have yet to see any good reason for NN to use its own little read history format. Reading and writing a .newsrc can be made as fast as you want, and certainly as fast as reading and writing any other kind of text file read history. In fact, parsing a file that's just whitespace-delimited instead of fixed-column oriented is probably *faster*, since you don't have to read as much data off of the disk. And if we're going to start talking about "generations" of newsreaders, I'd claim something like this is the most reasonable way to split them up: Generation 1: news (anyone remember news A?) and readnews Basically, just send articles to the screen, piping through "more" if you're lucky Generation 2: vnews, rn, nn, notesfiles, etc. Use full-screen capabilities, limited "random access" to articles, rudimentary article preprocessing. Generation 3: Uses a very fast display (such as a workstation), complete random access to articles, complex article preprocessing, and so on. The recent crop of GNU Emacs newsreaders are edging into this category. Xrn would be in here if it actually did anything more than rn does. This is where stuff is really starting to get interesting. -- Amanda Walker InterCon Systems Corporation -- amanda@intercon.uu.net | ...!uunet!intercon!amanda
jad@dayton.UUCP (J. Deters) (08/03/89)
In article <853@dtscp1.UUCP> scott@dtscp1.UUCP (Scott Barman) writes: >In article <402@laas.laas.fr> ralph@laas.laas.fr writes: >>Have you never heard of rn's '=' command, which the user may >>customize. Mine prints out subject, length, and author. >How? >Please do not tell me to RTFM. I have it sitting here next to me >and I don't see it. If it is there, please point out where. >scott barman >{gatech, emory}!dtscp1!scott In TFM, it explains what the environment variable SUBJLINE means. If you set SUBJLINE= %s %z %t, you will get this format when you use the '=' command. Your operating system shell will dictate how you have to set the environment variable. In kshi, it is the line: export SUBJLINE="%s %z %t" in your .kshrc or .profile. -j -- J. Deters - jad@dayton.DHDSC.MN.ORG "I'll tell you what kind of guy I was. If you ordered a boxcar full of sons-of-bitches and opened the door and only found me inside, you could consider the order filled." -- Robert Mitchum
storm@texas.dk (Kim F. Storm) (08/07/89)
brent@capmkt.COM (Brent Chapman) writes: > Arbitron works by reading the >.newsrc file of all the users on the system. If they're using nn, they don't >have a .newsrc (or they have one that hasn't been touched in a while, if they >used to use rn), and thus don't get counted in the survey. The present .newsrc support in nn (include 'set newsrc' in the global init file) should allow arbitron to run without any problems. -=-=-=-=-=-=- To turn the ball back to all the people who think .newsrc is adequate (I know it is standard, so don't tell me that :-): Since nn automatically splits all digests into separate articles and transparently handles these undigested articles as normal articles, how do you suggest to use .newsrc to mark *part of a digest* as unread?? With the next release of nn (6.4), the nn counterpart to .newsrc will be able to do this (this information is kept in files separate from nn's rc file). And with all the fuzz about .newsrc, I probably also include a more complete .newsrc support in release 6.4. But no promises.... -- Kim F. Storm storm@texas.dk Tel +45 429 174 00 Texas Instruments, Marielundvej 46E, DK-2730 Herlev, Denmark No news is good news, but nn is better!
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (08/07/89)
In article <377@texas.dk>, storm@texas.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes: > Since nn automatically splits all digests into separate articles and > transparently handles these undigested articles as normal articles, > how do you suggest to use .newsrc to mark *part of a digest* as unread?? I suggest that it probably shouldn't do that. If the editor of the digest wanted it to come out as seperate articles they would have published it that way. But if that particular feature is that important, have it mark the digest as unread in the .newsrc, and only then fall back to having a seperate file for the digests. But since NN currently doesn't support leaving any articles unread at all, though, it's rather an academic question. -- Peter da Silva, Xenix Support, Ferranti International Controls Corporation. Business: peter@ficc.uu.net, +1 713 274 5180. | "The sentence I am now Personal: peter@sugar.hackercorp.com. `-_-' | writing is the sentence Quote: Have you hugged your wolf today? 'U` | you are now reading"
mason@tmsoft.uucp (Dave Mason) (08/08/89)
In article <377@texas.dk> kim@texas.dk writes: >To turn the ball back to all the people who think .newsrc is adequate >(I know it is standard, so don't tell me that :-): > >Since nn automatically splits all digests into separate articles and >transparently handles these undigested articles as normal articles, >how do you suggest to use .newsrc to mark *part of a digest* as unread?? Code digest elements that have been read with a octal bit vector as a fractional part on the article number. So that if you had read articles 1-45, 50 parts 1,2,5,6,9 (of 20) and 52-59 the .newsrc line would look like: random.group: 1-45,50.631,52-59 This should work fine, as digests rarely have more than 5-10 articles which would only add up to 5 characters to the .newsrc line. With a one line change to arbitron, it would work. There is a test for the range of the current article number that says (around line 157): if ((grpfirst != grplast) && (lastread >= grpfirst) && (lastread <= grplast)) { this must be changed to: if ((grpfirst != grplast) && (lastread >= grpfirst) && (lastread < grplast+1)) { I think it's quite reasonable for people to apply a trivial, compatible patch to arbitron. Unfortunately I don't know how rn would respond to that 50.631. At worst it will break or ignore the line. At best it will keep the information as it is on that article. Most likely it will truncate it, and consider all of article 50 as read. This is somewhat important to people who use different readers from different places on the same .newsrc file and for people who want to try nn without having their rn .newsrc junked. >With the next release of nn (6.4), the nn counterpart to .newsrc will >be able to do this (this information is kept in files separate from >nn's rc file). I'm not convinced that keeping separate files is the right approach. >And with all the fuzz about .newsrc, I probably also include a more >complete .newsrc support in release 6.4. But no promises.... > >-- >Kim F. Storm storm@texas.dk Tel +45 429 174 00 >Texas Instruments, Marielundvej 46E, DK-2730 Herlev, Denmark > No news is good news, but nn is better! Sounds like you've done some interesting things here, but I think keeping a somewhat compatible .newsrc is one of the things you should do, even if it doesn't produce quite as good a program in some theoretical sense. ../Dave
brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) (08/08/89)
I dunno about arbitron, but putting something like 1-56.123 in a .newsrc would certainly entertain Newsclip's .newsrc reader! I think that this is a bell & whistle that really doesn't belong in the reader. The breaking up of digests should really be done at the gateway, or by the inews program. -- Brad Templeton, Looking Glass Software Ltd. -- Waterloo, Ontario 519/884-7473
chip@vector.Dallas.TX.US (Chip Rosenthal) (08/08/89)
In article <3962@looking.on.ca> brad@looking.on.ca (Brad Templeton) writes: >I think that this is a bell & whistle that really doesn't belong in the >reader. The breaking up of digests should really be done at the gateway, >or by the inews program. If anybody is really serious about this, I've got something which seems to do the job quite well. I use it to gateway the [TELECOM Digest] into comp.dcom.telecom. It does require some discipline on the part of the digest editor to maintain format consistency (modulo what you can describe in an RE). Except for one special digest issue which didn't use the normal headers, it seems to run without much intervention at all. -- Chip Rosenthal / chip@vector.Dallas.TX.US / Dallas Semiconductor / 214-450-5337 "I wish you'd put that starvation box down and go to bed" - Albert Collins' Mom
SYSNET@cc.nu.oz (David Morrison) (08/12/89)
In article <339@capmkt.COM>, brent@capmkt.COM (Brent Chapman) writes: > It's important because "rn" isn't the only thing that expects a .newsrc file. > The example that springs immediately to mind (and I'm sure there are others) > is the "arbitron" program that gathers the data used to calculate the various > USENET readership and propogation statistics. Arbitron works by reading the > .newsrc file of all the users on the system. If they're using nn, they don't > have a .newsrc (or they have one that hasn't been touched in a while, if they > used to use rn), and thus don't get counted in the survey. arbitron has other problems than NN not having .newsrc, given that news reading programs are available on non-unix machines which do not have .newsrc files either. It is probably misrepresenting the actual readership of some groups. -- David Morrison, Network Manager, Uni of Newcastle, Australia Try sysnet@cc.nu.oz.au or sysnet@cc.nu.oz (mail only) or (VAX PSI) psi%newcastle.edu.au::sysnet or psi%0505249626002::sysnet
dlp@gistdev.UUCP (Dirk Pellett) (08/14/89)
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <377@texas.dk>, storm@texas.dk (Kim F. Storm) writes: >> Since nn automatically splits all digests into separate articles and >> transparently handles these undigested articles as normal articles, >> how do you suggest to use .newsrc to mark *part of a digest* as unread?? >I suggest that it probably shouldn't do that. If the editor of the digest >wanted it to come out as seperate articles they would have published it that >way. Until I started using NN, I always skipped over all digests, because I didn't have the time to wade through the 95% garbage to get to the 5% I wanted to read. Who should control the way I spend my time: the editor of the digest, or me? NN properly gives _me_ complete control. -- * * * * * * * * Dirk Pellett uunet!gistdev!dlp
tneff@bfmny0.UUCP (Tom Neff) (08/14/89)
In article <481@gistdev.UUCP> dlp@gistdev.UUCP (Dirk Pellett) writes: >Until I started using NN, I always skipped over all digests, because I >didn't have the time to wade through the 95% garbage to get to the 5% >I wanted to read. Who should control the way I spend my time: the >editor of the digest, or me? NN properly gives _me_ complete control. Rn gives you all the control you need. The <Tab> and <Ctrl-G> keys make moving around standard format digests easy, and for nonstandard ones it's the work of a moment to && map a key to pipe an article into less(1) where you have fine control. NN is OK for those who are into that sort of thing I guess, but it didn't invent digest control. (And auto-splitting digests isn't what I call "control" anyway, more like "giving up.") -- "We walked on the moon -- (( Tom Neff you be polite" )) tneff@bfmny0.UU.NET
ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) (08/24/89)
In article <2803@mace.cc.purdue.edu> asd@mace.cc.purdue.edu (Kareth) writes: | In article <404@laas.laas.fr> ralph@nastassia.laas.fr (Ralph P. Sobek) writes: | >Kareth, please don't be so naive. One needs a *standard*, even | Well, I'm not. | | >possibly a *standard* .newsrc file. When, for example, you're on a | >network with a plethora of newsreaders which are not uniformly | >distributed over all machines, but *all* can read your .newsrc file. | | But only one .newsrc can only apply to one machine right? The numbers in it | aren't transferable around machines are they? (Neither are nn's ither) Why | would you need to read news on all the different machines? I've got a dozen WRONG!! With networked file systems one .newsrc and one login directory can apply to a plethora of machines (here approx. 60). | plus accounts on different machines, and only read from one. I only use one | newsreader (nn now) so I don't need to ever deal with rn or all the others. | Isn't that the way most people will work? Use one newsreader only? If I used | rn, why use readnews? or vnews, gnews, etc. Maybe there are some people who | do do that. But I don't see a exactly why nn needs to use a .newsrc format | unless you are specifically going to be using both nn and rn/vnews/etc. which | would seem odd to me. Multiple news readers are nice for those who ocassionally pre-treat their news thru shell scripts. Ralph P. Sobek Disclaimer: The above ruminations are my own. ralph@laas.laas.fr Addresses are ordered by importance. ralph@laas.uucp, or ...!uunet!mcvax!laas!ralph If all else fails, try: SOBEK@FRMOP11.BITNET sobek@eclair.Berkeley.EDU =============================================================================== Upon the instruments of death the sunlight brightly gleams. -- King Crimson