david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- Resident E-mail Hack) (10/12/87)
With the impending distribution of C News, shouldn't there be
a matching newsgroup created?
--
<---- David Herron, Local E-Mail Hack, david@ms.uky.edu, david@ms.uky.csnet
<---- {rutgers,uunet,cbosgd}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET
<---- I thought that time was this neat invention that kept everything
<---- from happening at once. Why doesn't this work in practice?henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (10/15/87)
> With the impending distribution of C News, shouldn't there be > a matching newsgroup created? It's not worth it right now. There really probably should be just one newsgroup, "news.software", since to date there isn't enough diversity in traffic to justify even the subdivision that we now have. -- "Mir" means "peace", as in | Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology "the war is over; we've won". | {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,utai}!utzoo!henry
david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- Resident E-mail Hack) (10/16/87)
In article <8777@utzoo.UUCP> henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) writes: >> With the impending distribution of C News, shouldn't there be >> a matching newsgroup created? >It's not worth it right now. There really probably should be just one >newsgroup, "news.software", since to date there isn't enough diversity >in traffic to justify even the subdivision that we now have. Yes ... I agree the traffic is very low. On the other hand, 2 years from now when the B version is but a dim memory people will ask why the newsgroup name is ".b". On the other hand, does it make more sense to just combine the two existing news.software groups (.b and .nntp) into one? -- <---- David Herron, Local E-Mail Hack, david@ms.uky.edu, david@ms.uky.csnet <---- {rutgers,uunet,cbosgd}!ukma!david, david@UKMA.BITNET <---- I thought that time was this neat invention that kept everything <---- from happening at once. Why doesn't this work in practice?
gam@amdahl.amdahl.com (Gordon A. Moffett) (10/17/87)
In article <7508@e.ms.uky.edu> david@ms.uky.edu (David Herron -- Resident E-mail Hack) writes: >On the other hand, does it make more sense to just combine >the two existing news.software groups (.b and .nntp) into one? Ech! Let us not be so bass-ackwards as to do that! Why must be unify these software groups? That would only lead to confusion ("Are you talking about news B or C or nntp?"). Leave them alone, and by all means lets have a news.software.c pretty soon. Let's use the structure of newsgroup names to help us, not hinder us. -- Gordon A. Moffett gam@amdahl.amdahl.com
chris@gargoyle.UChicago.EDU (Chris Johnston) (10/19/87)
Please name it something sensible like news.software.c. I can see it now someone gets clever and names it news.software. The next thing you know there will be postings of spread sheet shareware or (shudder :-) messages about M.E.Smith. cj
karl@haddock.ISC.COM (Karl Heuer) (10/22/87)
In article <772@gargoyle.UChicago.EDU> chris@gargoyle.uchicago.edu.UUCP (Chris Johnston) writes: >Please name it something sensible like news.software.c. > >I can see it now someone gets clever and names it news.software. The >next thing you know there will be postings of spread sheet shareware... Great! A news.software.c! I can use it to post all my programs that are written in the C language! This potential confusion suggests that it the suffix should be ".cnews" or ".version-c" or something along those lines. Of course this would require renaming or deleting the ".b" newsgroup, for consistency. Karl W. Z. Heuer (ima!haddock!karl or karl@haddock.isc.com), The Walking Lint
amos@taux01.UUCP (Amos Shapir) (07/03/89)
Of 114 articles in this newsgroup, 88 (77%) deal with C news (according to the Subject line). Isn't it time for news.software.c yet? -- Amos Shapir amos@nsc.com National Semiconductor (Israel) P.O.B. 3007, Herzlia 46104, Israel Tel. +972 52 522261 TWX: 33691, fax: +972-52-558322 34 48 E / 32 10 N (My other cpu is a NS32532)
wisner@mica.Berkeley.EDU (Bill Wisner) (07/04/89)
In article <2076@taux01.UUCP> amos@taux01.UUCP (Amos Shapir) writes: >Of 114 articles in this newsgroup, 88 (77%) deal with C news (according >to the Subject line). Isn't it time for news.software.c yet? No. Watch news.groups.
brent@capmkt.COM (Brent Chapman) (07/06/89)
amos@taux01.UUCP (Amos Shapir) writes: >Of 114 articles in this newsgroup, 88 (77%) deal with C news (according >to the Subject line). Isn't it time for news.software.c yet? YES! I have no intention of switching to C news before Rick Adams at UUNET does (I figure that will be a fair indicator of when it's stable enough not to cause me too many problems), and have no interest whatsoever in watching the growth pains C news is going through... When other people whose judgement I respect have decided that C news is ready for them to use, then I'll pick it up. Whatever the problems of C news are, this newsgroup is for discussing problems with _B_ news; I think that having discussions of B news drowned out by discussions of C news does a disservice to users and administrators of both. -Brent -- Brent Chapman Capital Market Technology, Inc. Computer Operations Manager 1995 University Ave., Suite 390 brent@capmkt.com Berkeley, CA 94704 {apple,lll-tis,uunet}!capmkt!brent Phone: 415/540-6400
wisner@mica.Berkeley.EDU (Bill Wisner) (07/07/89)
In article <318@capmkt.COM> brent@capmkt.COM (Brent Chapman) writes: >YES! I have no intention of switching to C news before Rick Adams at >UUNET does Who ever said Rick will be switching to C news? Maybe he'll decide TMNN is the way to go. Or perhaps he'll keep using B 2.11, the software with his name written all over it. Bill Wisner wisner@mica.berkeley.edu ucbvax!mica!wisner I'm not the NRA either.
rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) (07/07/89)
Rick has said many times that whenever a news system comes out with less bugs that the current 2.11.18 he is running he will switch to it. Note 1) He said less bugs, not bugfree. (Given the state of 2.11 less bugs is not an impossible goal...) Note 2) Yes, there is a patch 18. No, he hasnt posted it yet. Note 3) He considers the missing options/flags in Cnews to be bugs and also recognizes that Henry/Geoff don't think so. (expire looks like a clear win though)
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (07/08/89)
In article <318@capmkt.COM> brent@capmkt.COM (Brent Chapman) writes: >YES! I have no intention of switching to C news before Rick Adams at >UUNET does (I figure that will be a fair indicator of when it's stable >enough not to cause me too many problems)... Many people already find it's that stable. Remember that Rick has to be exceedingly conservative about software, given his position. >Whatever the problems of C news are, this newsgroup is for discussing >problems with _B_ news; I think that having discussions of B news drowned >out by discussions of C news does a disservice to users and administrators >of both. Uh, "discussions of B news drowned out"? What discussions of B news? We really don't need 57 different subgroups of news.software, each of them handling one or two articles a week. -- $10 million equals 18 PM | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology (Pentagon-Minutes). -Tom Neff | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (07/08/89)
In article <59719@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: >Rick has said many times that whenever a news system comes out with >less bugs that the current 2.11.18 he is running he will switch to it. > >Note 1) He said less bugs, not bugfree... Well, you may have noticed an absence of much in the way of C News bug reports. That's because there hasn't been much in the way of bugs. There are a few minor things that the next patch will clear up -- the worst is the order dependency of the -C and -d options in inews, not what one would call a disastrous problem -- but basically it's stable software. >Note 3) He considers the missing options/flags in Cnews to be bugs > and also recognizes that Henry/Geoff don't think so... Speaking more generally, not just to Rick: we are always interested in hearing *specifics* of why missing features are causing real problems. Note, we want to know exactly what is missing (requests to implement the union of all wishlists will be pointedly ignored), why it would cause problems *today* (hypothetical problems that might occur in the future are unlikely to move us to action today), and whether there is an easy workaround (since we do not claim to provide a turnkey solution for all the world's ills). While there are a lot of things we didn't include, only some of the omissions are the result of firm convictions that feature X does not belong in C News. Many things were omitted simply because we didn't think them important enough to include (since any inclusion has a cost). On such things, we're open to detailed, well-reasoned arguments from people who really need what we left out. -- $10 million equals 18 PM | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology (Pentagon-Minutes). -Tom Neff | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) (07/08/89)
> Speaking more generally, not just to Rick: we are always interested in > hearing *specifics* of why missing features are causing real problems. Rick has a 3000 line sys file and 3 or 4 500 line shell scripts. He is not about to verify that each and every option or flag he is using was considered important enough to include. None of the existing flags/options is that obscure. If you want other people to run C news, then you have to give them some degree of comfort that their old scripts will continue to run. Lets do it the other way. What flag/option did you intentionally leave out because it was useless.
brent@capmkt.COM (Brent Chapman) (07/08/89)
wisner@mica.Berkeley.EDU (Bill Wisner) writes: #In article <318@capmkt.COM> brent@capmkt.COM (Brent Chapman) writes: #>YES! I have no intention of switching to C news before Rick Adams at #>UUNET does #Who ever said Rick will be switching to C news? Maybe he'll decide TMNN #is the way to go. Or perhaps he'll keep using B 2.11, the software with #his name written all over it. Whoever said _I_ was going to switch. Read what I said carefully. I said I have no _intention_ of switching _before_ Rick does. There are two key points there: first, an "intention" is not signed in blood (i.e., I may change my mind later); and second, if Rick doesn't switch, maybe I won't bother to either. I was trying to make the point that, if Bnews is good enough to handle the load at UUNET, it's probably good enough to handle the load on capmkt... -Brent -- Brent Chapman Capital Market Technology, Inc. Computer Operations Manager 1995 University Ave., Suite 390 brent@capmkt.com Berkeley, CA 94704 {apple,lll-tis,uunet}!capmkt!brent Phone: 415/540-6400
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (07/11/89)
In article <59766@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: >None of the existing flags/options is that obscure. If you want >other people to run C news, then you have to give them some degree >of comfort that their old scripts will continue to run. Sigh, after I just finished explaining that we're not in the business of either (a) implementing the union of wishlists, or (b) providing turnkey solutions to everyone's problems. A lot of "other people" don't seem to mind this, actually. >Lets do it the other way. What flag/option did you intentionally leave >out because it was useless. A complete answer to this question would require meticulous comparison of first the documentation and then the code (to make sure the documentation is correct, and to check the fine points of semantics that the documents sometimes don't cover) for B2.11 and C News. Rick at least is full time at UUNET; neither of us is full time on C News. The reason why dbz didn't get incorporated into the 7-July patch was not that we don't think it's a good idea, but that we haven't yet found time for it. The chance that we will find time to do an algorithm-by-algorithm comparison of the two news systems is nil. Especially since we don't particularly want to. >> Speaking more generally, not just to Rick: we are always interested in >> hearing *specifics* of why missing features are causing real problems. > >Rick has a 3000 line sys file and 3 or 4 500 line shell scripts. He is >not about to verify that each and every option or flag he is using >was considered important enough to include. For UUNET we just might stretch a point and do the verifying ourselves, but we have to see said sys file and shell scripts so we can figure out what, in particular, is being used. (Actually we've seen the sys file once or twice when Geoff had a "sendsys" get away from him, but we don't have a current one.) As I said, our interest is in *specific* problems, not complaints that it isn't just like 2.11; C News will *NEVER* be just like 2.11. -- $10 million equals 18 PM | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology (Pentagon-Minutes). -Tom Neff | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
bsa@telotech.UUCP (Brandon S. Allbery) (07/16/89)
An Open Comment to Geoff and Henry: I see a lot of complaints about C news not being identical to B news 2.11 patchlevel 17 on the net. I just figured I'd try to even it out a bit: personally, I have no problems with it. I installed C news on "telotech" (the system I'm posting from) and will be installing on ncoast sometime soon (well, I'll be installing it on "nc386", but as of August 1 it'll be "ncoast"); I found it to be less of a hassle than my past experiences with B news, and maintenance is also less painful. (Side comment: I *did* have a problem with building it; either you or I forgot something. I had to chown everything to "bin" to compile it, after unpacking as "bsa". Did I miss a comment in the installation notes, or did you forget to include a warning to that effect?) Anyway, I've had no problems so far, and expect none on ncoast/nc386 even though ncoast is a semi-major news system (it feeds, directly or indirectly, much of Northeast Ohio) and will be handling even more when the new machine takes over. You two did a good job, and regardless of other comments, *I* thank you. ++Brandon
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (07/18/89)
In article <1989Jul16.025409.1287@telotech.uucp> bsa@telotech.UUCP (Brandon S. Allbery) writes: >... (Side comment: I *did* have a problem with >building it; either you or I forgot something. I had to chown everything to >"bin" to compile it, after unpacking as "bsa". Did I miss a comment in the >installation notes, or did you forget to include a warning to that effect?) There should have been a warning but wasn't; there is one now. -- $10 million equals 18 PM | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology (Pentagon-Minutes). -Tom Neff | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
stevesc@microsoft.UUCP (Steve Schonberger) (10/17/89)
Most of the volume here seems to discuss Cnews rather than the Bnews that the title implies. Would it make sense to create a news.software.c to carry Cnews discussions? Also possibly a news.software.misc for things like UUPC news, news hacks for Bitnet, and so forth? Many people would likely read more than one of those, but it would save people only interested in one of the varieties from reading all of them. -- Steve Schonberger microsoft!stevesc@uunet.uu.net "Working under pressure is the sugar that we crave" --A. Lamb
tale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) (10/17/89)
The programmers of C News have stated more than once that they do not
wish to see a news.software.b formed; this of course would not prevent
the group from being formed, but it is a good thing to keep in mind.
A few months ago their was a dual-pronged proposal to create
news.software and bag news.software.b. I am in favour of such a
course of action, but there are logistical problems with nuking
groups. It doesn't happen as well as we would hope.
The various news software systems that get discussed are often inter-
related, usually because of different methodology. I personally would
like to follow all of the traffic which would appear in a news.software
group but I understand that many admins at smaller leaf sites just want
to follow the articles about the software which they are running.
Since so much of it is steeped in history, though, I would expect to
still see a lot of crossposting between the .nntp, .c and .b groups.
Dave
--
(setq mail '("tale@pawl.rpi.edu" "tale@itsgw.rpi.edu" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (10/17/89)
In article <8067@microsoft.UUCP> stevesc@microsoft.UUCP (Steve Schonberger) writes: >Most of the volume here seems to discuss Cnews rather than the Bnews >that the title implies. Would it make sense to create a >news.software.c to carry Cnews discussions? ... It would make more sense to delete the ".b". There really isn't enough traffic to justify separate groups, and all too often issues cross the boundaries between the various systems. -- A bit of tolerance is worth a | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology megabyte of flaming. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
moraes@cs.toronto.edu (Mark Moraes) (10/17/89)
Since the news transport systems need to interoperate with each other and with newsreaders, it's probably a good thing to have just one group. Or perhaps news.software.newsreaders and news.software.transport.
coolidge@brutus.cs.uiuc.edu (John Coolidge) (10/17/89)
moraes@cs.toronto.edu (Mark Moraes) writes: >Since the news transport systems need to interoperate with each other >and with newsreaders, it's probably a good thing to have just one >group. Or perhaps news.software.newsreaders and news.software.transport. I'd prefer to see either just a news.software group or the above .newsreaders, .transport, and maybe .protocols (.transport being the software and .protocols being the underlying protocol spec). However, I really don't think the volume is much of a burden right now. Perhaps of the traffic zooms way up, but right now news.software.b has a pretty easy-to-handle volume. --John -------------------------------------------------------------------------- John L. Coolidge Internet:coolidge@cs.uiuc.edu UUCP:uiucdcs!coolidge Of course I don't speak for the U of I (or anyone else except myself) Copyright 1989 John L. Coolidge. Copying allowed if (and only if) attributed. You may redistribute this article if and only if your recipients may as well.
news@laas.laas.fr (USENET News System) (10/31/89)
In article <1989Oct17.154621.2928@brutus.cs.uiuc.edu> coolidge@cs.uiuc.edu writes: | moraes@cs.toronto.edu (Mark Moraes) writes: | >Since the news transport systems need to interoperate with each other | >and with newsreaders, it's probably a good thing to have just one | >group. Or perhaps news.software.newsreaders and news.software.transport. | | I'd prefer to see either just a news.software group or the above | .newsreaders, .transport, and maybe .protocols (.transport being | the software and .protocols being the underlying protocol spec). I third the choice of rearranging these newsgroups! | However, I really don't think the volume is much of a burden right now. | Perhaps of the traffic zooms way up, but right now news.software.b | has a pretty easy-to-handle volume. I do not think that the problem is one of volume but of varied subjects all being discussed under news.software.b! The newsreader discussions should be separated out from the software discussions. If there's not enough justification of adding news.software.c alone, then why not rename the newsgroup to news.software? More detailled topics could continue as in news.software.nntp. Yes, let's separate the newsreaders from the transport software. That was my 2 c^H/ (imagine a cents sign here) worth. Ralph P. Sobek Disclaimer: The above ruminations are my own. ralph@laas.laas.fr Addresses are ordered by importance. ralph@laas.uucp, or ...!uunet!mcvax!laas!ralph If all else fails, try: SOBEK@FRMOP11.BITNET sobek@eclair.Berkeley.EDU =============================================================================== Upon the instruments of death the sunlight brightly gleams. -- King Crimson