larrym (12/01/82)
Response to my request for Laser Printer information has finally slowed
down enough that I'm willing to do a summary. Due to the extreme length
of this submission, I've taken the liberty of editing some of the letters.
Mainly just removing their headers, or deleting names if I was asked to.
In summary, there are two kinds of laser printers that you can buy:
1) something based on the Xerox engine with 300 dots/inch, a
dry process and very good contrast, or
2) something based on the Canon engine with 240 dots/inch, a
wet process and fair to good contrast.
In theory, the decision would be simple (take the best, #1), however
support for that choice is very limited. From Xerox (as opposed to QMS
or any other supplier of the Xerox engine), you get a limited number of
fonts, no information on the font format (it's proprietary, so you
can't build your own or buy them from someone else), no ability to do
direct screen to printer copies (i.e., no bitmap transfers). QMS is an
old hardware house who make their living building parallel printer
interfaces. They don't seem to offer much better software support than
Xerox (and they haven't shipped any yet). Most importantly, none of
the Xerox based machines offer troff or Scribe compatability.
Both the Imagen and the Symbolics machines are based on the Canon
engine. Both are very well supported and come from companies with lots
of technical knowledge. Both offer troff, Scribe and Tex compatability.
Both claim extensive font libraries (either currently or to come) and
both are perfectly willing to make their font formats known so that
you can build your own. At the moment, Imagen does not offer the ability
to do direct bitmap copies (from a workstation screen or window).
The implementations are fairly different in philosophy, so depending
on how you plan to use the printer, your decision as to which machine
to buy could be different.
All this is current information. As noted below in one of the letters,
DEC is planning to have a laser printer sometime in 1983. It will be
based on the Xerox engine, have zillions of fonts (you know promises),
and support direct bitmap copies. I don't know when in 1983 it will
actually be available, but if you are not in a hurry, it's probably
worth finding out about, it seems to be the best of both worlds.
(But promises always do look rosy.)
In our case, we haven't decided yet. Symbolics has offered us a
loaner for a short while to convince us that they have the best machine
(and get an in at a big company who might buy multiple of them). For
our purposes, it is really between the Symbolics now and the DEC sometime
in the future. It will depend on how urgent our need becomes (i.e., how
the old Versatec holds up, and how many people shout for better quality).
Larry Morandi
Usenet: {ucbvax,decvax,pur-ee,ihnss,chico}!teklabs!larrym
CSnet: larrym@tek
ARPA: larrym.tek@rand-relay
US Mail: Larry Morandi, Computer Research Lab, Tektronix, Inc.
Box 500 MS 50-384, Beaverton OR 97077
Phone: 503-627-6002
::::::::::::::
From: decvax!yale-comix!jod
Date: Sun Oct 31 20:32:31 1982
We have an Imagen that we like very much. It runs off a VAX 750
running 4.1bsd, suitably equipped with server software so as to handle
jobs from all round our Ethernet. We use it with Scribe, TEX, and troff,
in about that order of frequency. So far we've printed over 150,000 pages.
It's been utterly reliable; the Canon print engine, though not the ultimate
in photocopiers (resolution, wet developer), has been delightfully
trouble-free. Clean the corona wires a couple of times a week, shake the
toner bottle weekly, and do PMs at 100,000 pages and you're set.
As for choosing between the Symbolics and Imagen controllers. I have
great respect for the technical people at both organizations. We're planning
the purchase of two more printers soon, and I've been talking to both
Symbolics and Imagen (and others -- I agree with your final two choices, by
the way) about their plans. It seems to me that Imagen intends to do more
in the way of extended functionality on their unit -- more device
emulation, more communications options (look for Centronics printer and
direct Ethernet very soon), more graphics support. What distinguishes them
from Symbolics lies in this area -- how much effort continues to go into the
unit. Symbolics seems to be offering theirs primarily in conjunction with
the Lisp Machine; Imagen more as a standalone unit.
The Imagen host software is pretty good. What does Symbolics offer
in that regard?
We're expecting general-purpose graphics (vectors, area fills, bitmaps with
pixel replication for 100dpi screen dumps) in the next week or two from
Imagen. If you like, I'll drop you another note when it comes up.
::::::::::::::
From: decvax!utzoo!henry
Date: Sun Oct 31 22:32:22 1982
Subject: secondhand report on Imagen laser printer
Dennis Ritchie has one of the beasts. He said, as near as I can recall,
that it needed good ventilation because it stinks (ozone when running
and organic toner at all times) and its paper-supply bin is too small,
but the print quality is good and the thing behaves pretty much as
advertised.
The folks at the Computer Systems Research Group here have 95% decided
to go with the Symbolics interface rather than the Imagen one, because
the Symbolics version buffers a whole page at a time. This apparently
eliminates some annoyances of the Imagen.
::::::::::::::
From: tekcrd!ronni@cca-unix
Date: 31 Oct 1982 15:33:48-EST
CCA is also looking into a laser printer. I have been in touch
with Imagen for quite awhile. I must say it is like pulling teeth
to get info. from them; I hope they are better as designers than
they are as salespeople and marketing types. I know they have had
systems in the field for awhile, but I do not know if these sites
represent any level more than beta-testing. Symbolics does not
have any products out in the field, but they are accepting orders
now for delivery in 120 days.
::::::::::::::
From: tekcrd!Furuta@WASHINGTON
Date: 1 Nov 1982 0952-PST
Noticed your recent query about laser printers. I'd be interested
in seeing whatever gets sent to you. We recently went through much the
same process here and decided that the Symbolics was the better looking
of the two available (Symbolics and Imagen). If you want, I can send you
a longish document we wrote detailing our choices (I thought it'd be
only polite to ask if you wanted it before sending 50,000 characters
across Phonenet).
--Rick
Furuta@Washington (ARPAnet)
...decvax!microsoft!uw-beaver!uw-june!furuta (uucp)
...ucbvax!lbl-unix!uw-beaver!uw-june!furuta
[NOTE: Many thanks go to Rick Furuta for his efforts. We got a copy of
the document and it significantly helped our decision making. I have been
asked not to excerpt it, however Rick may give you more info if you contact
him directly. --LJM]
::::::::::::::
Date: Mon Nov 1 18:44:23 1982
Well, I hate to say it, but I wouldn't buy a laser printer.
We have 2 Imagen printers (you can usually keep one on line
if you own 2).
I find the print quality unacceptable and the maintenance hard.
They are not reliable.
Now, on to other things..
I am in the process of buying an APS micro5 phototypesetter.
It "only" costs about $60k. It sounds expensive, but its
the same price as 2 laser printers. There are many reasons.
The overriding factor is print quality. Its as good as you could
possibly hope for. 200 fonts are available.
It is almost maintenance free (this comes from people who own one,
not the salesman). It is fast, easy to use and the new
troff from AT&T supports it.
I was talking to Brian Kernighan about typesetters/printers
in general and he strongly recommended it. He said that at
Bell, they use the laser printers to PROOF before putting
it out on the typesetter.
In summary, if you can afford it, look very strongly at
the APS micro5 by Autologic. It looks like a real win.
::::::::::::::
From: cbosg!cbosgd!mark (Mark Horton)
Date: 31-Oct-82 11:58:46-EST (Sun)
Be sure to look at the DEC LN01. We're getting one as a test site.
It looks good, but time will tell. We chose it over the Imagen.
::::::::::::::
From: cbosg!cbosgd!djb (David J. Bryant)
Date: 31-Oct-82 15:25:57-EST (Sun)
We just went through the same search, and finally decided on the Imagen,
principally because of it's strong UNIX support. Several folks inside
the Labs have one, include one that Brian Kernighan used to develop his
device-independent TROFF. Just about the time we were starting the purchase
order paperwork we were approached by DEC to help them beta-test their
new laserprinter that they plan to make available first quarter of next
year. As a result, we've suspended our outside search until we have a
chance to play with DEC's unit (for FREE!) for a couple of months.
To summarize our findings:
Imagen - I have seen the Imagen and have some of it's output.
It's a nice unit, if you don't mind the 240 dots/inch
resolution (the DEC and some others offer 300 dots/inch).
Many good UNIX support tools are available from Imagen.
The people at Imagen have been very helpful and friendly.
As I mentioned, we were set to buy one before approached
by DEC.
Symbolics - I know nothing about the Symbolics unit.
Xerox 2700 - You might consider the Xerox 2700 (and some other units
based on it, like the Lasergraphic system put out by QMS).
I have talked with Xerox about the 2700 and found it to be
a reasonably good deal ($18,000), except that Xerox insists
on being over-protective of it's internals. If you want to
use your own fonts (which we do), too bad. Font format is
proprietary. As a graphics output device, it's passable, but
has only basic line drawing comands, and no raw raster
output capabilties. Xerox seemed real interested in clearing
up these objectionable situations (except the font business),
but I don't look for any substantial progress anytime soon.
One of the groups here is planning to by one very soon,
and I'll likely be working with them on its installation
and development.
If you'd like any further information, feel free to let me know (I worked
to keep this response short, but would be happy to discuss things via
mail or over the phone).
David Bryant
Bell Laboratories
Columbus, Ohio
(614) 860-4516
cbosg!djb
::::::::::::::
From: tekcrd!rej@cornell
Date: 2 Nov 1982 08:37:51-EST
The Cornell Computer Science department has an Imagen on its 4.1BSD Unix
system. I like it a lot. For an official position, try asking Dean Kraft
(dean), who is the Man In Charge.
::::::::::::::
From: decvax!ittvax!tpdcvax!bobvan
Date: Tue Nov 2 04:20:05 1982
I was looking for a laser printer about a month ago and got quite
a bit of help from the net. I have posted a brief summary to
net.unix-wizards and offered the raw information to all interested
parties. We've ordered the Symbolics.
Bob Van Valzah
(...!decvax!ittvax!tpdcvax!bobvan)
[NOTE: The summary which Bob mentions never appeared at any of the Tek sites.]
::::::::::::::
From: ucbvax!sdcsvax!philabs!jgc
Date: 2-Nov-82 13:30:35-PST (Tue)
We have also been looking for a laser printer. Our requirements
are such that we want nroff/troff compatability, bit mapped and
vector type graphics.
We have found the following :
- The Xerox 2700 has the best print quality available, and very
high resolution - 300x300 dpi., plus a good maintenance record.
Xerox is not supporting graphics !!! (A big mistake on the part
of their marketing people.)
- QMS Inc., Mobile Ala. WILL be selling the 2700 guts with their own
controller. They support graphics. Price $24,995. Delivery in Dec..
Service by TRW.
- The Cannon based printers with 240x240 resolution do not look as good
as the Xerox based ones. Symbolics does offer troff/nroff support as
well as a unix driver. They seem to offer more at a lower price than
Imagen.
Thanks,
Jim Constantine
Philips Labs
::::::::::::::
From: pur-ee!iuvax!byrd
Date: Wed Nov 3 15:48:20 1982
Here (Indiana University Computer Science Dept.) we have an Imagen on a
VAX 780 under 4.1 bsd UNIX. I'm not a systems programmer, so I don't know
the details, but I believe it was easy to bring up. You realize, I assume,
that both Imagen and Symbolics are really Canon laser printers. The Imagen
runs at 240x240 pixels per inch; however, the Canon is capable of 240x480
or (at half speed) 480x480, which would give MUCH better quality. 240 squared
is not at all bad, it's just very noticably (to me) not a phototypesetter.
I don't know what Imagen is saying about supporting the increased resolution.
Basically, it's damned nice being able (with itroff, which I use, or TEX)
to use REAL italics, boldface, different sizes, etc. -- well worth the
loss of character definition (at 240x240) compared to a Diablo or NEC.
My biggest complaint about the Canon is also my biggest complaint about
several Versatec electrostatic printer/plotters I've used: they do not
consistently produce good contrast -- in fact they pretty consistently
produce lousy contrast. If the contrast is high enough to Xerox well this
is not so bad, but often it's not even that good. For high contrast,
Xerox seems almost to have a corner on the market. (Note that, other
than the process of capturing the original image, a laser printer is
just like an office copier.) In fact, DEC is apparently planning on
distributing a Xerox 300 pixel/inch laser printer; I've seen output
from the Xerox version, and it was BEAUTIFUL. It might well be worth
waiting for.
One more comment: pixel-per-inch counting can be very misleading. Other
relevant and nontrivial factors include the character set and the sizes
of the dots (the larger they are, the smoother straight lines). Proof
is provided by samples I saw at Hewlett-Packard in Palo Alto a year and
a half ago from their then-under development 180 pixel/inch laser printer.
These were sample alphabets in various fonts and sizes, including very
small. They were incredibly good looking -- as I recall, significantly
better than our Canon/Imagen.
Oh, two more things: (1) Imagen does not currently support graphics at
all, although about two months ago they were promising graphics support
in about two months. (2) itroff under 4.1bsd currently supports only
one font (Computer Modern)! This is a real pain, but presumably the
new device-independent troff and/or TEX 80 or TEX 82 is better.
::::::::::::::
From: ucbvax!atd!T.jon
Date: 3-Nov-82 20:25:03-PST (Wed)
About your laser printer querry: we (Ampex) have been looking a
little too. Ricoh Electronics makes a very reasonably priced (~10K) laser
printer with 300-dot per inch resolution. It won't be out for
about 6 months or so. I've got some information on it and it
looks promising. I'd like to know about other printers on the
market; what have you seen so far and what's your impression?
Is there any software already available to interface any
high-res printer (i.e. higher resolution than a versatec) to troff?
-jonathan hahn
...!ucbvax!atd!avsdT:jon
...!sri-unix!fortune!dsd!atd!avsdT:jon
(415) 367-3637
::::::::::::::
From: watmath!watdaisy!arwhite
Date: Tue Nov 2 14:05:38 1982
We got an imagen a month or so back.
In terms of software, it seems to be quite decent - the software that
comes with it to run under unix doesn't take too much fiddling to work.
It's interface is fairly decent - you can have it take two protocols
one simple one where you do simple checksuming and sequencing and
it just throws the job away if it fails; and the other which does full
windowing and such with status information such as out of paper
coming back from the machine (this is what we use).
Typesetter Independent troff talked to it as well; right now I am
trying to diddle all that stuff to use decent character widths
(it assumes that you are going to eventually output on a Morganthaler 202
and hence uses those widths with a resultant squished output.)
I am likewise trying to make it use the fonts that came with vtroff.
Anyhow, in terms of software I like it, there is simply a little bit
of work to be done; I terms of quality I like it (though I am hardly an
expert), and it seems to be fairly easy to run.
Alex White
Math Faculty Computing Facility
University of Waterloo
::::::::::::::
[This is after some letters back and forth between Rick LeFaivre here at
Tek Labs and Mark Horton and David Bryant at Bell Labs]
From: cbosg!cbosgd!mark
To: djb,rickl@teklabs.UUCP (Mark Horton)
Date: 3-Nov-82 16:28:19-EST (Wed)
Subject: Re: DEC LN01 Laser Printer
I don't know all the nitty gritty details (I think Dave knows more
of them than I do) but I do know the DEC printer is based on the
Xerox engine. It is a requirement for us, too, that it handle troff
upward compatibly, but we're assuming ditroff, not the old one that
insists it's talking to a CAT. (I don't know of any problems caused
by this.) We are going to have to write some software to drive it,
and I don't know how much. (Another person in another group in our
dept is going to do the software.) We have vector descriptions of
some decent fonts (Times, Helvetica, Constant Width, etc) and software
to generate 200 dot/inch fonts from them - I'm sure that can be changed
to 300 with no problems except for doubled disk space consumption.
I am unclear on the status of this software - I think it's supposed
to be included with the ditroff tape but rumor has it that it isn't.
If it's not supposed to be included, then it's probably proprietary
and encased in cement.
::::::::::::::
From: cbosg!cbosgd!djb (David J. Bryant)
To: rickl@teklabs.uucp
Date: 3-Nov-82 17:33:20-EST (Wed)
Subject: Re: DEC LN01 Laser Printer
Mark hit most of the high spots, so I'll just fill in a few things here
and there. DEC is definitely using the XEROX 2700 engine, but it is unclear
how much of the 2700 is there and how much is DEC-specific. Minimally,
the interface is DEC, plus I have every reason to believe that they are
doing some if not all of the font memory/definition. DEC has contracted
with someone to build a HUGE font library for them, instead of buying them
from Xerox, plus they claim you can download your own fonts - which is not
possible with the 2700. (We expect DEC to make their font format public,
so we can use our own. Xerox clearly would not let DEC give away their
"secret" font layout. This is an extremely important point to us. As
Mark mentioned, we've lots of time, money and software invested in some
nifty programs that give us loads of fonts, plus the ability to manipulate
them at will.) As for the variety of fonts that will be available from DEC,
I can guarantee you that DEC will eventually have more fonts than you can keep
track of (hundred and hundreds of fonts).
Yes, the Xerox 2700 gives better output than the Canon engine. The DEC LN01,
QMS Lasergrafix and other 2700 machines are discernably superior.
We are dead set on a laser printer that we can control absolutely. That is,
we must be able to completely control each and every dot. This is essential
for some of our graphics output, plus some of our phototypesetting and
viewgraph packages. Basically, we want something we can drive like the
Versatec, with lots more speed, better resolution, fewer plumbing problems,
and any extra smarts anybody wants to throw in. When I told this to the Xerox
folks, they all passed out in a dead faint. They want to sell to folks who
will be clam-happy with their stock Xerox packages.
David Bryant
cbosg!djb
(614)-860-4516
ps: By the way, what kind of a timetable do you have? We won't be
getting the LN01 until early-mid December.
::::::::::::::
From: pur-ee!iuvax!dswise
Date: Sun Nov 7 08:05:52 1982
This message was generated locally by Larry Mongin ( pur-ee!iuvax!lam )
in response to a similar query.
Sincerely, David S. Wise, Computer Science, Indiana Univ
From lam Sat Nov 6 21:37:52 1982
To: pur-ee!decvax!ittvax!tdpcvax!bobvan
Subject: laser printer
Cc: dcm dswise edrbtsn pwp
We have had a Canon laser printer from Imagen Corp. running on our VAX
11/780 running since May. Imagen supplied drivers and interfaces to troff.
Purdue sent us a modified Imagen tape that came right up. We were troffing
in less than 1 day. Bill White, a graduate student got a tex80 tape from
Caltech, and after a lot of work got tex running on our VAX inputting to
the Canon. We've run approx 40000 pages through the Imagen (50% troff,
40% tex, 10% imprint- a Imagen print utility). The Imagen with any text
processor takes up a lot of VAX cycles. tex is especially expensive,
because tex80 stores positional data as floating point numbers. tex82 uses
fixed point data.
We have spent a total of 3 days on hardware and software maintenance. One
day to bring the system up, 8 hours to learn how to adjust the printer to
maximize contrast/minimize fluid use, and one day to install software mods
from Imagen and put the software in our production library. The printer has
never been down. Purdue EE, Yale, and UI CS all have Imagen printers.
The Xerox 2700 at 300 dots per inch is probably a better printer, but
the Imagen is here now and the software is available for UNIX. Our contact
at Imagen is Bob Wallace.
Purdue is using paper supplied by their printing shop that is a better
quality bond than that supplied by imagen. The imagen paper looks too
much like xerox paper to us. We will probably switch as soon as we use
up the paper supplied by imagen. Be sure and turn off the printer at
night. Our toner and premix use dropped by 50% after we started turning
the printer off at 5PM. I don't want to sound like I'm on the imagen
payroll, but we really are happy with the printer.
=h
:::::::::::::: End of Laser Printer Summary ::::::::::::::