bob@kahala.hig.hawaii.edu (Bob Cunningham) (02/06/90)
A state legislative inquiry into the propriety of University support to "outside" computer systems has compelled the Universitiy of Hawaii to---temporarily, at least---shut off external uucp connections and Usenet news feeds. As far as I can tell, this only affects a handful of uucp sites in Honolulu, most of which have alternative uucp mail paths to North America. Bob Cunningham School of Ocean & Earth Science & Technology, University of Hawaii bob@kahala.soest.hawaii.edu
bob@MorningStar.Com (Bob Sutterfield) (02/06/90)
In article <6484@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> bob@kahala.hig.hawaii.edu (Bob Cunningham) writes:
A state legislative inquiry into the propriety of University
support to "outside" computer systems has compelled the Universitiy
of Hawaii to---temporarily, at least---shut off external uucp
connections and Usenet news feeds.
Ouch! Let's hope this doesn't become a trend.
As far as I can tell, this only affects a handful of uucp sites in
Honolulu, most of which have alternative uucp mail paths to North
America.
Good luck to all of you!eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) (02/07/90)
In article <6484@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu> bob@kahala.soest.hawaii.edu (Bob Cunningham) writes: >A state legislative inquiry into the propriety of University support >to "outside" computer systems has compelled the Universitiy of Hawaii >to---temporarily, at least---shut off external uucp connections and >Usenet news feeds. > >As far as I can tell, this only affects a handful of uucp sites in >Honolulu, most of which have alternative uucp mail paths to North >America. And to think that but a month ago one of those "outside" computer systems wanted to know if I was interested in working for them. Aloha. Hey kids--THIS is censorship--it's government prohibition of the free exchange of ideas. Tell your state legislature they're welcome to do without the tax and tourist dollars "outsiders" generate. (And I really was planning on cutting down on my sugar intake anyway...) -=EPS=- Enjoying the warm California sunshine, and spending my money on the mainland, thank you.
sullivan@aqdata.uucp (Michael T. Sullivan) (02/07/90)
From article <303@toaster.SFSU.EDU>, by eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott): > > Hey kids--THIS is censorship--it's government prohibition of the > free exchange of ideas. No, it's not. The government isn't stopping students from setting up their own system and paying for their own phone lines to get news feeds. The government is not required to pay for free speech, which isn't really free because it's being paid for. -- Michael Sullivan uunet!jarthur!aqdata!sullivan aQdata, Inc. sullivan@aqdata.uucp San Dimas, CA +1 714 599 9992
jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) (02/07/90)
In article <303@toaster.SFSU.EDU> eps@cs.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott) writes: >Hey kids--THIS is censorship--it's government prohibition of the >free exchange of ideas. This is not censorship. This what happens when the people responsible for paying the bills sit up and take notice. The legislators of Hawaii are responsible to the voting public, of which USENET users are a very small fraction. If you think USENET is such a fundemental human right, put your money where you mouth is and set up your own system for everyone to use. -- John F. Haugh II UUCP: ...!cs.utexas.edu!rpp386!jfh Ma Bell: (512) 832-8832 Domain: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org
tp@mccall.uucp (02/07/90)
In article <1990Feb7.012458.14811@aqdata.uucp>, sullivan@aqdata.uucp (Michael T. Sullivan) writes: > From article <303@toaster.SFSU.EDU>, by eps@toaster.SFSU.EDU (Eric P. Scott): >> Hey kids--THIS is censorship--it's government prohibition of the >> free exchange of ideas. > No, it's not. The government isn't stopping students from setting up > their own system and paying for their own phone lines to get news feeds. > The government is not required to pay for free speech, which isn't > really free because it's being paid for. Yes, it is. The government has decided that the university can't support usenet. If the university had decided not to spend their own money on it, you'd be right. If it isn't censorship, it is limiting the ability of professional educators to decide how to allocate their resources. Also, I sincerely doubt that this particular university is different from any others in the fact that they have many funding sources other than the state, and so the state mandating such a thing is NOT an issue of what the government's money is spent on. It could have been, if they had simply said that state money can't be used for such a purpose. -- Terry Poot (800)255-2762, in Kansas (913)776-4041 The McCall Pattern Company, 615 McCall Rd., Manhattan, KS 66502, USA UUCP: rutgers!ksuvax1!mccall!tp Internet: tp%mccall@ksuvax1.cis.ksu.edu
paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Pomes - UofIllinois CSO) (02/08/90)
tp@mccall.uucp writes: >Yes, it is. The government has decided that the university can't support >usenet. If the university had decided not to spend their own money on it, >you'd be right. If it isn't censorship, it is limiting the ability of >professional educators to decide how to allocate their resources. So what? Those who have the money make the rules. If someone doesn't like it, they can fund their own system. The state has an interest in how computer systems, bought with state money, are used. If having a newsfeed is of commercial advantage, then the state (and by extension the University) should either provide one to all comers or only to those with a reciprocal agreement. At UIUC the agreement is along the lines of "by having a UUCP connection with us, you agree to forward UIUC mail." Leaf sites with no other connections seldom qualify. Please re-read the base note again: >A state legislative inquiry into the propriety of University support >to "outside" computer systems has compelled the Universitiy of Hawaii >to---temporarily, at least---shut off external uucp connections and >Usenet news feeds. Note the reason for the cut-off: support for outside systems. I tread a very similar line as News/Mail/UUCP admin at UIUC. Local businesses that want a UUCP connection are sent to UUNET unless they can demonstrate some benefit to the University. -- Paul Pomes UUCP: {att,iuvax,uunet}!uiucuxc!paul Internet, BITNET: paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu US Mail: UofIllinois, CSO, 1304 W Springfield Ave, Urbana, IL 61801-2987
bob@kahala.hig.hawaii.edu (Bob Cunningham) (02/08/90)
As a followup, it appears that no local systems were completely cut off from their Usenet news feeds or uucp mail (except that routes through the uhccux machine are no longer operational). There were and still are other routes. The UH Computer Center probably wasn't even the primary news feed, just a handy one. Some additional background (to the best of my knowledge; I still don't know the complete details myself): the UH computing center had a moritorium in effect on new uucp connections (for a variety of reasons, one for sure was that they felt it was taking a bit too much time and effort to keep things working right); I understand that some disgruntled person outside of the University community who wanted a uucp link appealed to their state legislator, something along the lines of "hey, why not me too?" The upshot was a legislative inquiry that asked what this was all about, why the University was doing this sort of stuff, and--by the way--what was the official University policy on all this anyways... Suffice it to say there's never been a formal policy (though internally at UH there's been considerable internal debate about what such a policy should or shouldn't be), and that some UH officials became concerned enough (note that the University's budget is currently under review by the state legislature) to trigger the cutoff. Bob Cunningham School of Ocean & Earth Science & Technology, University of Hawaii bob@kahala.soest.hawaii.edu
kassover@control.crd.ge.com (David Kassover) (02/09/90)
>Yes, it is. The government has decided that the university can't support >usenet.>-- This is not censorship. I would be willing to bet *real* money that if any one professor, or group of professors, were willing to apply THEIR OWN time, money (grant or otherwise), and effort (Yes that includes graduate stutden slave-peons) to maintaining a network node, it would be done. In fact, it has been done at several universities that I know of, and probably a whole bunch that I do not. I see nothing in the previous postings that indicate that the University in question has stated that individuals are not permitted to engage in network activities. It has simply declined to apply *ITS* money and resources to these activities. Furthermore, in a more or less unrelated matter, US District (Or maybe Circuit) Courts have ruled that State Universities are part of the State Governments, and therefore may not be sued without that government's permission.
bret@codonics.COM (Bret Orsburn) (02/09/90)
>Hey kids--THIS is censorship--it's government prohibition of the >free exchange of ideas. I sympathize with the sentiment, but, intellectually, this statement is utter nonsense. A government ceasing to subsidize something is *not* prohibition, and is *not* censorship. A lesson to learn here is that a "free speech" that is dependent on so many institutions, both public and private, and with no concrete legal guarantees, is not very robust. If we become wholly dependent on such a medium, our "free speech" can be taken away at any time. The printing press is not so vulnerable. -- ------------------- bret@codonics.com uunet!codonics!bret Bret Orsburn
harbula@edinboro.edu (Dave Harbula) (02/13/90)
In article <6484@uhccux.uhcc.hawaii.edu>, (Bob Cunningham) writes: > A state legislative inquiry into the propriety of University support > to "outside" computer systems has compelled the Universitiy of Hawaii > to---temporarily, at least---shut off external uucp connections and > Usenet news feeds. I've been following this thread with some interest because as a state-owned university it could probably happen here as well. As paul@uxc.cso.uiuc.edu (Paul Pomes - UofIllinois CSO) pointed out, > ...The state has an interest in > how computer systems, bought with state money, are used... Yeah, and it has nothing to do with censorship. A state-owned university could come under close scrutiny by providing free (or very cheap) services to commercial organizations. That could be considered unfair competition because they are using public funds to subsidize these organizations at the expense of others. It's a fine line, but something to think about. The flip side is that these organizations are most likely to be the ones that provide financial support through donations. Fortunately we are still in a position where we are encouraged to provide community support whenever possible. The key phrase, however, is "whenever possible". Our first responsibility is still to our own campus, and the State System of Higher Education who pays our bills. - Dave Harbula