rick@pcrat.UUCP (Rick Richardson) (09/01/88)
BACKGROUND: I'm a died-in-the-wool pic/troff user. NO FLAMES ON THIS POINT. PostScript. The latest printer craze. I used to drool over the glossies for these printers. I wished I could justify the cost. I couldn't. I got a LaserJet II instead. 1) Can't print more than 16 fonts per page. 2) Can't always take complex sequences of PCL. 3) Only cost $1600. (Items 1 & 2 HP should fix in series III. Item 3) doesn't need fixing) Lately, I've been working with a PostScript based system and PostScript printers based on the Canon engine. My chance to see what I'd been missing. Fonts scaled to 72 point if I wanted. Except that I only use a range of size between say 6 and maybe 16 point, and occasionally 20, 24 and 32 point for viewgraphs. Dozens of fonts. Except I only commonly need about 4 or 5 different ones. OK, so what about performance. The PostScript printer should at least do that for me. WRONG. troff converted to HP PCL (downloaded fonts and all) is consistently smaller than the troff converted to PostScript. Complex "pic" diagrams are fully FOUR times larger in PostScript than in HP PCL. That means more data moving to the printer. And once it gets there? The HP starts turning out page after page (after the first page, which usually contains most of the downloaded glyphs that are needed), at what looks to be close to the rated speed of the engine. The PostScript printer dogs each and every page. End result? A twenty page doument on the HP prints fully twice as fast as the same document on the PostScript printer. Yeah, there are some nice features to PostScript. But is it really worth the extra delay and cost? The bottom line is to keep the printer and me busy. And I'm not busy if I don't have my document to read and mark up. IBM would be proud to be able to claim PostScript authorship. It is a product that can't help but put people on the migration path upward -- to faster and more costly hardware! OK PostScript Folks. FLAME AWAY. I've got the trusty HP at my side. I can out flame you on paper with both cartridges on the floor. -- Rick Richardson, PC Research, Inc. rick%pcrat.uucp@uunet.uu.net (INTERNET) uunet!pcrat!rick (UUCP, Personal Mail) ..!pcrat!jetroff (JetRoff Info) ..!pcrat!dry2 (Dhrystone Submissions)
greid@ondine.COM (Glenn Reid) (09/02/88)
> Yeah, there are some nice features to PostScript. But is it really > worth the extra delay and cost? The bottom line is to keep > the printer and me busy. And I'm not busy if I don't have my > document to read and mark up. > > IBM would be proud to be able to claim PostScript authorship. It is > a product that can't help but put people on the migration path > upward -- to faster and more costly hardware! There is no upgrade path: essentially the full feature set is available on every single PostScript printer. You just have to pick features like speed, paper handling, color, fonts, or whatever. > > OK PostScript Folks. FLAME AWAY. I've got the trusty HP at my > side. I can out flame you on paper with both cartridges on the floor. This does bring up some interesting points. Without directly comparing PostScript to anything else, consider these questions: * Can you print at 150, 400, 600, 1270, or 2540 dots-per-inch? * Can you print in full color? * Can you print on 11x17 paper? or on 18x24 inch RC paper? * Can you print full page halftoned images? * Can you send your print files across the country as electronic mail? * Can you import graphics from a drawing program into a word processor? * Can you merge a Macintosh illustration into output from troff? These are not questions that bring the "feature set" of PostScript into play, merely the device independence. The intent of PostScript is true freedom from device-specific marking instructions. The same file will execute on all PostScript printers, provided some marginal care is taken, and the files are portable and represented as 7-bit ASCII. In addition to this, PostScript is a full-featured programming language, supports unlimited scaling and rotation of fonts and everything else, and isn't even much slower on a comparable marking engine, if the program is written well. PostScript is not a "point product", it is a total solution. Glenn Reid Adobe Systems Incorporated Mountain View, California Disclaimer: I work at the company where PostScript was invented, and although my company generally agrees with what I say, it is not a completely unbiased opinion.
rick@pcrat.UUCP (Rick Richardson) (09/02/88)
In article <4208@adobe.COM> greid@ondine.UUCP (Glenn Reid) writes: >> (Remember, I'm a pic/troff user) >> Yeah, there are some nice features to PostScript. But is it really >> worth the extra delay and cost? The bottom line is to keep >> the printer and me busy. And I'm not busy if I don't have my >> document to read and mark up. > * Can you print at 150, 400, 600, 1270, or 2540 dots-per-inch? Can't see why not. The document source file can be processed for any printer, in theory. 99.94% of the time, I'd never want to print at a higher resolution. For final publication, yes. So then I convert for that printer. Could even be PostScript at that point. > * Can you print in full color? My text formatter (troff) doesn't support color, so whether the output is in PostScript or PCL, it won't be color. I suppose you could pass a postprocessor specific command for color through troff (as is done for bitmap merging). Then the question is: does the physical printer do color. No. So the color command would be ignored. > * Can you print on 11x17 paper? or on 18x24 inch RC paper? Entirely a physical printer question. Has nothing to do with the printer language. I can't get 18x24 paper to go through the (canon engine based) PostScript printer or the HP. > * Can you print full page halftoned images? I can print anything that can be digitized or converted to 300 dpi resolution (the resolution of canon engines). > * Can you send your print files across the country as electronic mail? Yes, either send the source, or the uuencoded PCL, either of which are likely to be smaller than the PostScript. > * Can you import graphics from a drawing program into a word processor? > * Can you merge a Macintosh illustration into output from troff? No problem there. I don't have a Mac, but I merge PC Paintbrush drawings all the time. ".BM drawing.pcx pcx 300 L" sticks 300DPI drawing.pcx in my document at the left margin, with text flowing around to the right. >PostScript is not a "point product", it is a total solution. I really can't argue that PostScript is not feature rich. It is. I can't argue with the fact that PostScript files are like P-code. They are. If I was running a typesetter shop I'd like all the customers to send documents in one format. PostScript is decent for this. What I argue with is that it is being pushed as a "total solution" for everybody. Which it isn't. Because it doesn't meet the two critical requirements for a large segment of the market: 1) willingness to pay 2) comparable or better performance to the ad hoc solution In retrospect, not meeting item 1) saved me from PostScript. If 1) had been met, I would probably own a PostScript printer right now. And be complaining about 2). And I would be told that I need the latest, faster, more expensive, PostScript based printer to get the performance I desire. I'd now be on the road of the upwardly mobile, with a lot of folks who use the terms VM, SNA, and ...PostScript... -- Rick Richardson, PC Research, Inc. rick%pcrat.uucp@uunet.uu.net (INTERNET) uunet!pcrat!rick (UUCP, Personal Mail) ..!pcrat!jetroff (JetRoff Info) ..!pcrat!dry2 (Dhrystone Submissions)
mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu (09/02/88)
>I got a LaserJet II instead. 1) Can't print more than 16 fonts per page. >2) Can't always take complex sequences of PCL. 3) Only cost $1600. Odd. I have in my hand a page from my LaserJet II with 36 lines of text, each in a different font. My LaserJet has printed properly every page I have sent it. Funny. Mine cost $1850, with the extra meg of memory. What is this "pic/troff" stuff? I'm using TeX. Doug McDonald
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu (09/03/88)
I guess I don't see the point of this discussion. The original notewriter
indicates that he has a very limited set of needs that's satisfied by the
HP laserjet. My own group needs much more extensive graphics capabilities
than the standard HP laserjet is capable of. If you don't expect to need
features other than those available in the cheaper (but highly reputable)
machine, then you shouldn't spend the extra money. But don't assume that
nobody else has needs greater than your own.
Mike Berger
Department of Statistics
Science, Technology, and Society
University of Illinois
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu
{ihnp4 | convex | pur-ee}!uiucuxc!clio!bergerles@chinet.UUCP (Leslie Mikesell) (09/03/88)
In article <567@pcrat.UUCP> rick@pcrat.UUCP (Rick Richardson) writes: >>> (Remember, I'm a pic/troff user) >>> Yeah, there are some nice features to PostScript. But is it really >>> worth the extra delay and cost? > >I can print anything that can be digitized or converted to 300 dpi >resolution (the resolution of canon engines). > If you want to print bitmaps, I don't see how you can expect PostScript to make any difference over any other printer language. A dot is a dot no matter how you say it. >No problem there. I don't have a Mac, but I merge PC Paintbrush drawings >all the time. ".BM drawing.pcx pcx 300 L" sticks 300DPI drawing.pcx in my >document at the left margin, with text flowing around to the right. Sounds like bitmaps to me... Les Mikesell
rick@pcrat.UUCP (Rick Richardson) (09/03/88)
In article <47700023@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu> mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: > >Odd. I have in my hand a page from my LaserJet II with 36 lines >of text, each in a different font. > >My LaserJet has printed properly every page I have sent it. It doesn't happen often, but you can get the HP to choke on a page. It isn't a memory thing, its a CPU performance problem. The HP rasterizes strips. Once the drum starts rolling it only has so much time to get the next strip ready. If it misses, you get the error 21. If the entire page is rasterized, you cannot get this error. But if you drop lots of bits of PCL around the page, you'll only get part of your printout. I don't get this problem with JetRoff anymore because I put in "Automatic Adaptive Rasterization", but other products I tried suffered from this problem. Typically, the "pic" (diagrams) and "grap" (graphs) would be the culprits. No problem with just text. As far as more than 16 fonts on a page, I can only surmise two things: 1) HP has fixed this limitation in later serial numbered II's 2) Some of those fonts have been combined into one font descriptor. The memory limits the number of fonts which can be stored, but: "The HP LaserJet series II Printer can print 16 distinct fonts per page." (Page 8-3, Tech Ref) This is borne out in practice for me, where I've had as many as 32 fonts downloaded, but as soon as I hit 16 on any page the printer gives up and just uses the last font. The fonts are there, but the printer refuses to select more than 16 different ones on a page. -- Rick Richardson, PC Research, Inc. rick%pcrat.uucp@uunet.uu.net (INTERNET) uunet!pcrat!rick (UUCP, Personal Mail) ..!pcrat!jetroff (JetRoff Info) ..!pcrat!dry2 (Dhrystone Submissions)
les@chinet.UUCP (Leslie Mikesell) (09/04/88)
In article <47700023@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu> mcdonald@uxe.cso.uiuc.edu writes: >>I got a LaserJet II instead. 1) Can't print more than 16 fonts per page. >Odd. I have in my hand a page from my LaserJet II with 36 lines >of text, each in a different font. .... >What is this "pic/troff" stuff? I'm using TeX. As I understand things, TeX doesn't download complete fonts, just each character it needs. By keeping track of which character it put into which position in which font slot, it is able to overcome the printer limitation (as long as you don't actually use every character of each font in your document). I have heard that there is such a thing as a TeX dvi driver for postscript that actually uses the postscript fonts instead of the above method, but I haven't actually seen one. Les Mikesell
finegan@ucqais.uc.edu (Mike Finegan) (09/06/88)
In the Univ. of Wash. distribution of TeX there are installation scripts for SYS_V, in particular the AT&T 3B2. Unfortunately, you still need to run this on a BSD Unix box, and still ned up with file names greater than 14 chars long. I ran the scripts on a Sun, but still am left with the task of writing a sed script to convert all references to long names to 14 char names. While I will never have the source to Berkeley pxp, I have gotten CTEX to compile (just split the long switch into two halves ...), how do I install the distribution so as to use CTEX? Any one out there have mf84, etc., installed on a 3B2 (/400) ? Anyone named Salkind able to explain the details for those of us without BSD source, and the skill (or time) to disassemble compilers ? It would be greatly appreciated - and can be done via anonymous FTP. Thanks, Mike Finegan finegan@uccba.uc.edu
dhosek@jarthur.Claremont.EDU (Donald Hosek) (09/18/88)
Whether TeX output will only download the necessary characters or will download the whole font depends on the device driver. There do exist some that will download the entire font whether you want it or not. Fortunately, most of these have died a slow and painful death. As for the driver that uses PostScript fonts, there are two of these to my knowledge: Clayton Elwell has written one that runs (I think) under Unix. Also, FTL systems (who produce MacTeX) have one that works with the Mac (understandably enough). It may also run under other systems, but I wouldn't bet on it. Also, at the TUG conference last month, I heard talk of several people working on generating PostScript outline fonts from Metafont output. I have no details (so if somebody knows anything, it might be worthwhile to send it to me and I'll summarize to the net), but I do have a paper from a group in England headed by Leslie Carr (this paper appears in the proceedings of the 1987 TUG meeting) that describes there experiences and a note on the disappointing results they obtained. -dh Preferred mail address: dhosek@ymir.bitnet or dhosek@ymir.claremont.edu