Horne-Scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne) (07/10/89)
In article <65741@yale-celray.yale.UUCP>, leichter@CS (Jerry Leichter) writes: > Scott Horne makes a number of responses to my comments on spacing around > em-dashes. I think there's little to be gained by answering point by point, Well, I'm answering this point-by-point. :-) > since at least some of what both of us have said is clearly taste, Granted. > and we disagree, Not completely--or do we? > and other could be debated forever (is an ellipsis really more of > a "semantic break" than a dash? I think I could find examples supporting > either side of the argument.) I'd be interested to hear one on the dash side. > As to whether to tie the em-dash to the preceeding word: I should think that > depends on meaning. In a heading, the dash might look a lot better at the > beginning of the following line than lost at the end of the previous one. The > title of my disseration is of the form "Description -- Explanation", and when > broken as > > Description > -- Explanation > > makes more sense, since it makes "Explanation" a kind of subitem. Several points about this: First, the title of your dissertation is probably centred (am I right?)--and you don't want Spacing Used with Dashes in Fine Typography -- Opinions in which ``Opinions'' doesn't look like a subitem. Second, if you want it to appear that way, put the break there yourself! You don't want coincidences in line breaking to determine your style. For instance, you probably wouldn't like Spacing Used with Dashes in Fine Typography -- A Case Study Third, I'm not sure why you want ``Explanation'' to look like a subitem, particularly since it's part of the title. Fourth, I still prefer to use the dash at the end of the line with no space before--and the style manuals agree with me here. (Of course, I don't suggest that everyone should follow what The Style Manuals (TM) say. They're wrong on some points. :-) ) One finds Dashes-- Dash It All! more often than Dashes -- Dash It All! and certainly more often than Dashes -- Dash It All! (Again, I'm not a ``majority rules''-fiat approach to typographic style.) > Or, again > -- here's an example -- perhaps it looks better if you can see the entire > "dashed off" section on one line, rather than leaving a lone dash at the end > of the previous. You may think so, but style manuals disagree. I don't have one right here to quote, but you may check for yourself and (if you wish) post your findings. Of course, if you feel strongly that the style manuals are wrong, then by all means follow your own style! I do in some cases. (I intend to use British spellings no matter *what* any American style manual says. Also, I often use periods and commas after closing quotation marks, as in the case Type `:1,$s/something/something else/g', then press `<RETURN>'. [Actually, some style manuals grant me cases like that in which it's necessary to show that the punctuation does not belong to the quote for an esoteric reason.]) However, don't do this on whim. Style manuals represent decades of typographical opinion and taste. > In summary: I think you have to decide this on a case-by- > case basis. (In fact, NEITHER is particularly good, and except where they > are really unavoidable, as in some headings, I view linebreaks at em-dashes as > something to fix up during proofreading.) As do I, and as does TeX. TeX tries not to break at a dash; but if it does, it leaves the dash at the end of a line, never at the beginning of one (provided that you type `word---word', not `word --- word' or whatever). I, too, dislike line breaks at dashes, and I try to avoid them (especially in hot-metal composition [do you ever use the Silliman College printing press, Jerry? :-)]). However, they're not *that* bad. I'll take the dash at the end of the line when the preceding word is unbreakable and somewhat long and nothing can be done with the following word. TeX handles dashes quite well; when it places a dash at the end of a line, I'm usually satisfied. > In any case, I mentioned in my posting that I had seen examples of typography > with spaces around em-dashes, but that I couldn't name any off-hand. Well, it > turns out that I had an example sitting right beside me - but I didn't notice > it until today. Take a look at the New York Times. It uses a significant > amount of space around em-dashes. It's difficult to tell exactly how much, > but it looks very much like an inter-word space to me. _The New York Times_ does use inter-word spacing around its dashes. But its dashes aren't quite em dashes. Besides, they're heavier; some spacing is therefore justified (no pun intended :-) ). However, I don't like the inter- word spacing. The _Times_ uses inter-word spacing around its dashes because its columns are narrow. The dashes can thus ``absorb'' quite a bit of space and thus tighten up the surrounding text. Newspaper conventions differ somewhat from the ordinary typographical conventions used in books, papers, journals, &c. While you might see flew to Tegucigal- pa and blah blah in a newspaper, you wouldn't see that in a book or paper. (`Tegucigalpa' would either be kept unbroken [space permitting--probably not!] or be broken after the `i'.) The alternative for a newspaper is flew to Tegucigalpa and This is the reason for separate conventions for newspapers. If your dissertation is run in 1.5" columns, then you probably should use space and shorter dashes. Otherwise, consider an em dash without space. --Scott Scott Horne Hacker-in-Chief, Yale CS Dept Facility horne@cs.Yale.edu ...!{harvard,cmcl2,decvax}!yale!horne Home: 203 789-0877 SnailMail: Box 7196 Yale Station, New Haven, CT 06520 Work: 203 432-6428 Summer residence: 175 Dwight St, New Haven, CT Dare I speak for the amorphous gallimaufry of intellectual thought called Yale?
johnk@opel.UUCP (John Kennedy) (07/11/89)
In article <65936@yale-celray.yale.UUCP> Horne-Scott@cs.yale.edu (Scott Horne) writes: [ some excellent examples of dash usage and flexibility with the "rules" ] then, >Of course, if you feel strongly that the style manuals are wrong, then by all >means follow your own style! I do in some cases. (I intend to use British >spellings no matter *what* any American style manual says. Why? -- John Kennedy johnk@opel.UUCP Second Source, Inc. Annapolis, MD