ockenden@prlhp1.prl.philips.co.uk (Paul T Ockenden) (07/20/88)
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I'm posting this for a friend who doesn't have a news feed (poor thing)
Please reply direct to him as .....mcvax!ukc!cix!dj
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NCR Drives : A Plea for help.
We have an NCR Tower 32/600 here. NCR being the *wonderful*
people they are want about 4500 for a 140Mb drive. This sticks in
my throat.
First. Without going to an external cabinet, is there anyway of getting
a bigger than 140Mb drive *INSIDE* the 32/600. We already have one 140Mb
and the 46Mb drive so we could say bye bye to the 46Mb, if we could boot
on it.... or move the 140Mb into the 46Mb's place... All suggestions
gratefully accepted.....
Second. 4500 UK Pnds for a 140Mb drive is er... a little steep... Does
anyone know how to install a non-NCR drive into a 32/600 without
waking up at night cold and sweating.
PS. These drives would have to take a hammering.....
Thanks in advance
DJ.
--
Paul Ockenden Philips Radiotheapy Systems, Crawley, UK +44 293 28787 x 4349
UUCP - uunet!mcvax!ukc!prlhp1!ockenden JANET - ockenden%prlhp1@uk.ac.Ukc
Opions (where expressed), are those of Paul Ockenden the individual, NOT
Paul Ockenden the Philips Employee !!vause@cs-col.Columbia.NCR.COM (Sam Vause) (07/22/88)
In article <531@prlhp1.prl.philips.co.uk> ockenden@prlhp1.prl.philips.co.uk (Paul T Ockenden) writes for someone else : :NCR Drives : A Plea for help. : :We have an NCR Tower 32/600 here. NCR being the *wonderful* :people they are want about (UK#)4500 for a 140Mb drive. This sticks in :my throat. : :First. Without going to an external cabinet, is there anyway of getting :a bigger than 140Mb drive *INSIDE* the 32/600. We already have one 140Mb Yes. You would have to purchase the 650 upgrade kit which would give you an internal SCSI controller, and the ability to add 170MB disks. :and the 46Mb drive so we could say bye bye to the 46Mb, if we could boot :on it.... or move the 140Mb into the 46Mb's place... All suggestions :gratefully accepted..... : :Second. 4500 UK Pnds for a 140Mb drive is er... a little steep... No kidding! That's about US$7,425 at the moment, primarily due to the VAT and other taxes in the UK, plus the sheer conversion rate difference (some- thing like US$1.65 = UK#1.00 at the moment...) :Does :anyone know how to install a non-NCR drive into a 32/600 without :waking up at night cold and sweating. The design of the operating System disk interface code precludes the addition of any non-approved disk into the TOWER. The reason for this is *NOT* to inconvenience you as a customer, but to make sure that only *CERTIFIED* drives are installed--the reliability of the machine and its data is the most impor- tant issue here. Drives this size *MUST* have an extremely high reliability rating. HOWEVER, having said this, I have seen Maxtor XT1140 drives for sale as low as US$1595 in various "Computer Shopper" magazines. NCR cannot be responsible for the performance and reliability of drives purchased through a third-party vendor. :PS. These drives would have to take a hammering..... Don't they all--that's one of the advantages of purchasing one from us--we've completed as much stress testing and evaluation as humanly possible. Such testing guarantees that the drives you purchase from us will be as reliable as one could hope for. Period. :Thanks in advance : : DJ. :Paul Ockenden Philips Radiotheapy Systems, Crawley, UK +44 293 28787 x 4349 : UUCP - uunet!mcvax!ukc!prlhp1!ockenden JANET - ockenden%prlhp1@uk.ac.Ukc : Opions (where expressed), are those of Paul Ockenden the individual, NOT : Paul Ockenden the Philips Employee !! You're welcome! +------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Sam Vause, NCR Corporation, Customer Services - TOWER Support | |3325 Platt Springs Road, West Columbia, SC 29169 (803) 791-6953 | | ...!ucbvax!sdcsvax!ncr-sd!ncrcae!cs-col!vause | +------------------------------------------------------------------+
pavlov@hscfvax.harvard.edu (G.Pavlov) (07/25/88)
In article <105@cs-col.Columbia.NCR.COM>, vause@cs-col.Columbia.NCR.COM (Sam Vause) writes: > The design of the operating System disk interface code precludes the addition > of any non-approved disk into the TOWER. The reason for this is *NOT* to > inconvenience you as a customer, but to make sure that only *CERTIFIED* drives > are installed--the reliability of the machine and its data is the most impor- > tant issue here. Drives this size *MUST* have an extremely high reliability > rating. > Does NCR manufacture its own drives for the Tower series ?? If not, what does it do to them to make them worth their weight in gold (almost literally)? greg pavlov, fstrf, amherst, ny
rogers@ofc.Columbia.NCR.COM (H. L. Rogers) (07/25/88)
------------------------------------------------------------------------- ***PLEASE DIRECT REPLIES TO alt.flame OR /dev/null. GET THIS DISCUSSION OUT OF wizards.*** ------------------------------------------------------------------------- In article <601@hscfvax.harvard.edu> pavlov@hscfvax.harvard.edu (G.Pavlov) writes: > Does NCR manufacture its own drives for the Tower series ?? If not, what > does it do to them to make them worth their weight in gold (almost literally)? Do you know anything about the real world? Or do you just hide-out on campus and pretend? No, NCR does not manufacture disk drives. NCR buys drives from drive vendors, just like Sun, DEC, Apollo, and others do. Your comment about "...worth their weight in gold..." shows you either don't know the price of gold or the weight of a disk drive. You don't even come close. I just wish I could sell 140 MB for over $30K! I *do* know what value is added and I *do* know *competitive* pricing in the marketplace. The value which is added amounts to very intensive qualification testing and reliability measurements before the first drive is ever shipped in a TOWER. NCR also does some very neat things like empirically determining the optimum interleave factor for a particular drive to maximize I/O performance. NCR also provides optimum software integration for each drive it supports. I doubt that we are very much different from other vendors in all these areas. As to the price, NCR remains *competitive* with every other *computer* vendor on the basis of dollars per megabyte. Check it out. NCR does not claim to be *competitive* in its drive pricing with the price of a disk purchased directly from a disk vendor. If a customer wants to buy his own drive and integrate it into the TOWER, then go for it! What Sam was trying to say is that if you expect NCR to support that drive as a part of your NCR maintenance contract, don't hold your breath. On the other hand, if it is a drive qualified and supported by NCR, I am quite sure NCR Customer Services will support the extra drive for only a slight increase in the price of the support contract. Just in case you don't understand why the support contract price would go up, it is because it is based upon the mean time between failures (MTBF) of the equipment. Additional electronics will decrease the MTBF, making the particular equipment more expensive to maintain because it is *predicted* to fail more often. Many customers buy drives from NCR because they know the value of reliability testing and enjoy the painless integration of additional parts. But we don't discourage those who want to "roll their own." The only caveat in addition to the maintenance contract discussion above is: if the software does not recognize the drive as one of many it *can* talk to, then you're going to need help from the TOWER software developers to make it work. And, Mr. G. Pavlov, NCR has done just that for several customers. No flames, please...I just can't stand to see a Harvard man get red-faced. -- HL Rogers (hl.rogers@ncrcae.Columbia.NCR.COM)
haugj@pigs.UUCP (Joe Bob Willie) (07/25/88)
In article <105@cs-col.Columbia.NCR.COM> Sam Vause writes: >The design of the operating System disk interface code precludes the addition >of any non-approved disk into the TOWER. The reason for this is *NOT* to >inconvenience you as a customer, but to make sure that only *CERTIFIED* drives >are installed--the reliability of the machine and its data is the most impor- >tant issue here. Drives this size *MUST* have an extremely high reliability >rating. Nonsense, the purpose of NCR is to make money. The typical manufacturers markup on disk drives and peripherals is near 100 percent. A certain nameless manufacturer I worked for sold parallel boards, which cost $25 to manufacture, for $600 because the serial boards, which cost about $100 to manufacture were being sold for $600. Disk drives were a completely different issue. Maxtor drives were priced about 100 percent above cost. When we started shipping RLL2,7 Adaptek controllers in the machines they marked up the drive prices at the same time they marked up the formatted capacity, even after they marked up the cost of the disk controller!!! >:PS. These drives would have to take a hammering..... > >Don't they all--that's one of the advantages of purchasing one from us--we've >completed as much stress testing and evaluation as humanly possible. Such >testing guarantees that the drives you purchase from us will be as reliable >as one could hope for. Period. NCR is not a drive manufacturer. To claim to conduct more testing that Maxtor or Miniscribe or NEC or Fuji is pure marketing hype. The 286MB NEC's in our P/95 are no less reliable than the 27?MB Fuji in the P/55. Both have proved to be highly reliable drives. Both take quite a pounding and I don't believe either cost what NCR is selling 140MB drives for. To be certain, VAT is a big chunk of any machine being sold in Europe, but the damned exchange rate is more favorable for Europeans than it has been in the past. Blaming the high cost of a machine on a more favorable exchange rate is folly! I'm not certain how restraint of trade laws work, but this smells like an area where they might apply. - John. -- jfh@rpp386.uucp (The Beach Bum at The Big "D" Home for Wayward Hackers) "Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity" -- Hanlon's Razor
hack@bellboy.UUCP (Greg Hackney) (07/26/88)
In article <531@prlhp1.prl.philips.co.uk> ockenden@prlhp1.UUCP writes: >NCR Drives : A Plea for help. >Does anyone know how to install a non-NCR drive into a 32/600 without >waking up at night cold and sweating. It's my understanding that the Radiology Dept. at Michigan State University has Tower 32-600s running with CDC-9766 drives and Xylogics 450 disk controllers. I wouldn't recommend your trying to do it yourself though, let a vendor do it, at no cost to you if it doesn't work out. I got a bid from NCR for a big drive, and you are correct in that they are proud of them. Priced theirselves right out of that sale, and out of my desire to try to grow the machine, thus, putting the project on another vendors machine. -- Greg
roe@sobeco.UUCP (R. Peterson) (07/26/88)
From article <531@prlhp1.prl.philips.co.uk>, by ockenden@prlhp1.prl.philips.co.uk (Paul T Ockenden): > NCR Drives : A Plea for help. > > We have an NCR Tower 32/600 here. NCR being the *wonderful* > people they are want about 4500 for a 140Mb drive. This sticks in > my throat. !!!!! MINE TOO !!!!!! > > First. Without going to an external cabinet, is there anyway of getting > a bigger than 140Mb drive *INSIDE* the 32/600. The problem here is that the NCR implementation of ST-506 supports a maximum of 1024 cylinders. The Maxtor XT-1140 (this is usually what NCR sells, at least in North America) has 918 cylinders; their next largest (and biggest, as far as I can tell) ST506 is the XT2190, with 1224 cyls; using this drive would waste 200 cyls. You can go to SCSI interface for the tower, and that permits drives as big as 760MB internally; however, you are going to need some programming to make it work. The NCR 'open philosophy' redefines the word 'open'... ... You can replace your 46MB drive with a 140MB. Simply back up your entire file system, change the 46 for a 140, and re-install the operating system from scratch. This will format the drive for you. You will have no trouble booting from the 140. Make sure to set it up for drive 0, and REMOVE THE TERMINATING RESISTOR PACK! > Second. 4500 UK Pnds for a 140Mb drive is er... a little steep... Does > anyone know how to install a non-NCR drive into a 32/600 The NCR 140 megabyte is ACTUALLY a MAXTOR XT-1140. Just buy one of these from you nearest dealer, install it, and the tower will be absolutely convinced you are using a real NCR drive (read: costs 3 times as much as it should). > PS. These drives would have to take a hammering..... The MAX is very robust. Roe Peterson {attcan,utzoo!telly}!sobeco!roe "Alls' fair in love and device drivers."
csg@pyramid.pyramid.com (Carl S. Gutekunst) (07/26/88)
In article <201@pigs.UUCP> haugj@pigs.UUCP (Joe Bob Willie) writes: >Nonsense, the purpose of NCR is to make money. The typical manufacturer's >markup on disk drives and peripherals is near 100 percent. Try 200 percent, relative to OEM cost. You'll find even greater markups on items the vendor has a lock on, e.g., memory boards for a proprietary bus. A vendor's justifications run something like this: - It costs the vendor something to physically pass the drive through. There are the handling costs associated with receiving, inventory, and shipping. This definitely justifies *some* markup above OEM cost. - Vendors perform drive *systems* tests, that is, the drive installed in the system, running the vendor's software. The drive manufacturer obviously does not do this, and certainly a distributor does not. In the case of NCR, they *do* perform more rigorous drive tests than the drive manufacturers do themselves. - A peripheral provided by the vendor will be covered by your maintenance contract. So you are paying the costs associated with the vendor educating its field staff on how to service that drive. This argument is actually more specious than most, since (1) you should be paying for the cost of maintenance entirely in the maintenance contract, and (2) most vendors don't actually service disk drives, they just replace them. But there are various competitive reasons for a vendor to shift costs from field service to purchase price. - Vendors are in the business of making money (obviously), so they will charge the highest price they can and remain competitive. Systems vendors generally do not consider themselves as competing with drive vendors, since they know (correctly) that the majority of their customers are not capable of instal- ling a disk drive. So they set prices not on what the drive vendors charge, but on what other systems vendors charge. This is a game that changes with time. Pyramid was competing with DEC back in 1984, so Pyramid's prices for Fujistu Eagles were set to compete against DEC's RA-81. Now Pyramid also competes with Sequent, Gould, CCI, and others, so the price is chosen to be competitve with *them.* - There are competitive reasons for shifting costs from the CPU to the periph- erals. On *systems* bids, this makes no difference. But many competitve bids don't include peripherals. (Bright lads up there in Washington.) So the ven- dor has good reason to decrease the CPU cost to below where it makes a profit, and make up the difference in peripherals. In summary, the vendor is selling you security -- here is a drive that works, you don't have to worry about it. If it breaks, we'll fix it; you don't have to gamble. And generally the vendor wins -- most customers *are* willing to pay a significant premium for a drive that the vendor assures them will work. I am much more sympathetic towards vendors that allow you to add your own peripherals, and allow you to take your own risks, even if they overcharge for the peripherals they sell. I *believe* Pyramid's policy is that you must buy at least one drive from them, so that there will be at least one known good drive on the system (for maintenance purposes). Additional drives you can add yourself, and many customers do. The aftermarket for DEC-compatible periphe- rals is legendary, and I am aware of a number of Sequent and Sun customers who have added their own drives. I have also added my own drives to the NCR Tower, although I was working for NCR at the time. :-) Disclaimer: I am speaking only for myself, obviously. <csg>
rogers@ofc.Columbia.NCR.COM (H. L. Rogers) (07/26/88)
In article <201@pigs.UUCP> haugj@pigs.UUCP (Joe Bob Willie) writes: > >NCR is not a drive manufacturer. To claim to conduct more testing that >Maxtor or Miniscribe or NEC or Fuji is pure marketing hype. Not true Joe. Some vendors *do* conduct more testing on parts which they purchase than the manufacturer themselves. I don't claim this is the case with disk drives, but NCR certainly throws a full suite of tests at a disk drive on three different levels: pieces-parts of the drive, the whole drive itself, and a system-level test in the NCR TOWER. We verify *every* piece of data specified by the manufacturer, including soft/hard error rates, MTBF, operating temperature/humidity/ vibration, electrical interfaces, electromagnetic emissions/suscep- tability, etc., and then some. We then verify the drive can be broken down in a customer site and repaired with replacement *parts*. Of course, if an HDA goes, we don't bother with replacing just that. The point is, we *do* conduct probably *as much testing* as the drive vendor. Although I do not know for sure, I suspect the more successful computer companies do the same. I know for certain the 3 largest companies conduct such testing. In article <32743@pyramid.pyramid.com> csg@pyramid.pyramid.com (Carl S. Gutekunst) writes: > > In the case of NCR, they *do* perform more rigorous drive tests than the > drive manufacturers do themselves. > >- Vendors are in the business of making money (obviously), so they will charge > the highest price they can and remain competitive. Systems vendors generally > do not consider themselves as competing with drive vendors, since they know > (correctly) that the majority of their customers are not capable of instal- > ling a disk drive. So they set prices not on what the drive vendors charge, > but on what other systems vendors charge. Even OEM customers who resell the NCR TOWER buy disk drives from NCR (at least the first one in each machine). Several customers than add second drives themselves (we helped them do it). Other customers prefer buying second, third, fourth, etc. drives from NCR as well, even though they have their *own* service organization. We must be doing something right! Yeah, there will always be some customers who are capable of adding their own widgets and complain about the high prices of the widgets. And there will always be those few who jump on the bandwagon and cry foul without knowing anything that went into setting the price of that widget. Do you buy a stripped-down automobile and then add radio, ac, power this-and-that, etc. yourself? Or a cheap VCR and then add extra heads for better quality? No, you buy a *brand name* you are comfortable with because you know it will give you good service and be reliable for a long time. And because it is more convenient for you to have someone else do the work for the extras, the options, the add-ons, even though you know how. And you pay a higher price every time you do that. And it does not matter if you are talking about NCR, General Motors, RCA, or XYZ, Inc. It's the same everyway. You get what you pay for. If prices are too high for a particular part, it is not the problem of a particular company, unless a monopoly exists *by design*. But that's another subject entirely. -- HL Rogers (hl.rogers@ncrcae.Columbia.NCR.COM)
pavlov@hscfvax.harvard.edu (G.Pavlov) (07/29/88)
In article <211@ofc.Columbia.NCR.COM>, rogers@ofc.Columbia.NCR.COM (H. L. Rogers) writes: > > Do you [GPavlov} know anything about the real world? Or do you just hide-out > on campus and pretend? > > No flames, please...I just can't stand to see a Harvard man get > red-faced. > -- my signature: greg pavlov, fstrf, amherst, ny ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ For better or worse, I am not a member of that stellar university or any other, for that matter. Jus' hiding out in my corner of the "real world", with over- priced oem'd disks and all....
rbj@nav.icst.nbs.gov (Root Boy Jim) (08/18/88)
? From: "H. L. Rogers" <rogers@ofc.columbia.ncr.com> ? Keywords: You get what you pay for ? Do you buy a stripped-down ? automobile and then add radio, ac, power this-and-that, etc. yourself? It is widely known that some options can best be installed by the factory, or vendor, for example, factory air beats the pants off add-ons. But yes, I *do* add my own stereo system, and for the difference in price (100% vs 200%) I will format my own disks, scan for bad blocks over the weekend, set the unit switches, screw it into a rack myself, and rely on the original manufacturers warranty for infant failures. For the difference in price of $10K for an eagle (a few years ago) I can spend a whole week on it. Also, most vendors will install (mechanically and switch settings) third party disks that they sell themselves for $1K or $2K, so you win anyway. This mostly works when adding identical drives to a system, and it is often a good idea (and/or required) to buy the first disk from the vendor. ? HL Rogers (hl.rogers@ncrcae.Columbia.NCR.COM) (Root Boy) Jim Cottrell <rbj@icst-cmr.arpa> National Bureau of Standards Flamer's Hotline: (301) 975-5688 The opinions expressed are solely my own and do not reflect NBS policy or agreement Careful with that VAX Eugene!