senetza%vp.uleth.adhocnet.ca%UNCAEDU.BITNET@CORNELLC.CIT.CORNELL (03/10/89)
Here's a summary of what was sent regarding VMS and Ultrix/32...
From: David R. Stampf <drs@bnlux0.bnl.gov>
1) file formats
2) signals - there simply aren't that many on vms
3) ioctl - simply isn't there
4) fork - works differently
5) select - ain't there either.
6) #includes - the directory names don't work without some work on
your part to define some alises.
7) complexity - easy stuff on unix is difficult on VMS (ie:- ioctl a
terminal)
8) pipes - there aren't any in VMS
From: Ray Curci (scri) <curci@stat.stat.fsu.edu>
1. The only way you can have file transfer and remote login is to buy
DECNET for your vms system and DECNET/ULTRIX for your ultrix system.
DECNET is a real hog and will substancially show down your systems.
2. Most systems today are UNIX-based, but most DEC people are VMS-based.
I have tried to get ultrix questions answered by their technical
support people only to find out that the vast majority of them have
are well versed in VMS, but UNIX illiterate.
(Note: someone from here got a VMS guru to admit that the sales of
Ultrix will be more than VMS within 5-6 years!! LJS)
3. If you want to speak to most other hosts, you will want to have
TELNET, FTP, SMTP mail, and perhaps NFS. Ultrix comes with these programs,
although there are incompatibility problems between their implementations and
NCSA-telnet for the PC/XT/AT, CMU-TEK-TCP for VMS software, and others.
DEC does not offer TELNET, SMTP, or NFS for VMS systems, only FTP in
something they sell for extra $$$ called the "vms/ultrix connection?"
4. As you have found out, the VAX11-C compiler for vms has many differences
with the standard 'CC' compiler under UNIX. ULTRIX v3.0 has a
VAX11-C compatible compiler to solve thie problem in their mind.
Ultrix v3.0 has both cc and vax11-c that come with it.
5. I help manager (1) VAX 8700, (1)11/780, (2)3500s, (25)VS2000s, (1)uVAXII
under VMS and (2)VS2000s and (1)11/780 under Ultrix. We also have about
15 Sun3s some Iriss, MacIIs, etc. The ultrix has more bugs than any other
Unix implementation I have seen. DEC's VMS is very propriatary and limits
your options. If you stick with the more standard UNIX machines that
have TELNET, FTP, SMTP, NFS, etc., you can minx and match systems from
SUN, HP, IRIS, Apollo, and (in theory only) DEC.
6. In my opinion, VMS is dying. DEC's newest machines that use the MIPS
cpu do not run vms, they use ultrix only. VMS is written primarily in
assembly language and BLISS (a weird dec assembly-like language).
We have the source code to earlier versions of VMS on microfische.
It is an incredably large program. The effort to ever port VMS to a
non-DEC cpu is pretty much impractical.
7. DECNET-DOS (software that runs on ibmpc/xt/at to use file system, etc.,
on a decnet machine) is a piece of junk, whereas SUN PC-NFS works very well.
---------------------
Also, a healthy discussion deciding whether a DECstation 3100 or a VAXstation
3100 could run Ultrix or VMS prevailed. Summarized below is what was decided.
1) DECstation 3100 can only run (now) Ultrix. This is because it is a
MIPS chip (RISC).
2) VAXstation 3100 can run either. It depends upon the boot-node chosen.
DEC has assured us that it could boot from the DECstation 3100, but
that is yet to be seen.
That's about it. Thanks for the input, it really started us thinking.
Leonard Senetza <senetza%vp.uleth.adhocnet@UNCAEDU.BITnet>
"Pretend to spank me, I'm a pseudo-masochist"avolio@decuac.dec.com (Frederick M. Avolio) (03/10/89)
Small correction about a product from Digital. The VMS/ULTRIX Connection does, of course, support NFS as that is what the product *is*. In implementing NFS, other TCP/IP protocols were required, hence the FTP support mentioned. (At DECUS product management indicated that TELNET would be supported in a future release -- after the current 1.0 -- and that SMTP was being looked at.) Fred
pavlov@hscfvax.harvard.edu (G.Pavlov) (03/13/89)
In article <18621@adm.BRL.MIL>, senetza%vp.uleth.adhocnet.ca%UNCAEDU.BITNET@CORNELLC.CIT.CORNELL writes: > Here's a summary of what was sent regarding VMS and Ultrix/32... > > From: Ray Curci (scri) <curci@stat.stat.fsu.edu> > > 1. The only way you can have file transfer and remote login is to buy > DECNET for your vms system and DECNET/ULTRIX for your ultrix system. > Not true. One can also obtain TCP/IP for VMS. I would suggest this course. DECNET isn't ideal under ULTRIX and TCP/IP would allow easier integration of non-DEC systems. > 2. Most systems today are UNIX-based, but most DEC people are VMS-based. > I have tried to get ultrix questions answered by their technical > support people only to find out that the vast majority of them have > are well versed in VMS, but UNIX illiterate. > That is my experience with the local hardware people. But we have found software support to be decent. If you are calling software support and encounter VMS people, you are calling the wrong place. VMS and ULTRIX are supported by different offices. > > 5. I help manager (1) VAX 8700, (1)11/780, (2)3500s, (25)VS2000s, (1)uVAXII > under VMS and (2)VS2000s and (1)11/780 under Ultrix. We also have about > 15 Sun3s some Iriss, MacIIs, etc. The ultrix has more bugs than any other > Unix implementation I have seen. > We have fewer machines but as great a variety of vendors. Our own exper- ience does not support the above assertion. I would tend to the opposite, that Ultrix is "cleaner" than average. One problem that relates to this, tho, is that the documentation is well below average. > If you stick with the more standard UNIX machines that > have TELNET, FTP, SMTP, NFS, etc., you can minx and match systems from > SUN, HP, IRIS, Apollo, and (in theory only) DEC. Which of the above is missing from ULTRIX ?? As far as I know, we use all of them on our ULTRIX machines, which are "mixed and matched" with other vendors' systems. > 6. In my opinion, VMS is dying. > Maybe. But the funeral will be years in coming. greg pavlov, (not a DEC fan by any means), fstrf, amherst, ny
aad@stpstn.UUCP (Anthony A. Datri) (03/15/89)
>> 1. The only way you can have file transfer and remote login is to buy >> DECNET for your vms system and DECNET/ULTRIX for your ultrix system. > Not true. One can also obtain TCP/IP for VMS. Certainly the conceptually better idea. CMU's TCP only costs about $150, but I think you need someone fairly VMS-cognizant to keep it going. Others may or may not be more robust, but they probably also cost a good bit. A predecessor here got DECnet/Ultrix, and with the new Internet gateway stuff, I get what I need for our very small VMS enclave. >> 15 Sun3s some Iriss, MacIIs, etc. The ultrix has more bugs than any other >> Unix implementation I have seen. > ience does not support the above assertion. I would tend to the opposite, > that Ultrix is "cleaner" than average. One problem that relates to this, > tho, is that the documentation is well below average. Ultrix certainly seems to have arbitrarily dropped peices of BSD, and weirdified several things. My Ultrix 3.0 release notes mention a net-cognisant finger program as a new feature. The fstab format, for example is different that everyone else's for no reason that I can discern. >> If you stick with the more standard UNIX machines that >> have TELNET, FTP, SMTP, NFS, etc., you can minx and match systems from >> SUN, HP, IRIS, Apollo, and (in theory only) DEC. I have nothing but trouble with Apollo's TCP and NFS. HP has some problems, like divergent versions of HP-UX, but their TCP and apparently-licensed-from- Sun NFS work just fine here. Ultrix TCP and NFS seem to work, modulo things like a lobotomized finger in 2.2. I like the selective root access that SunOS 4.0+ gives you, which alleviates the temptation to adb the kernel. Everyone's sendmail is different, though, which is a real pain. > Which of the above is missing from ULTRIX ?? As far as I know, we use > all of them on our ULTRIX machines, which are "mixed and matched" with > other vendors' systems. Apollo finally bundled their TCP in with 10.1. It was a seperate product before, and NFS still is, just like C. I'm not sure how HP markets them. It's nice that Ultrix comes with TCP and NFS. Now if only their installation instructions were correct, and if only my DEC salescreature could get a clue. >> 6. In my opinion, VMS is dying. We can only hope. But if DEC can get away with de-supporting hardware after a painfully short lifetime, they can get away with VMS. Inertia is a powerful thing. Look at those big 360's that IBM's still making. > Maybe. But the funeral will be years in coming. COBOL was accused of being stillborn, but it's still there as well. -- @disclaimer(Any concepts or opinions above are entirely mine, not those of my employer, my GIGI, my VT05, or my 11/34) beak is@>beak is not Anthony A. Datri @SysAdmin(Stepstone Corporation) aad@stepstone.com stpstn!aad