jeffrey@algor2.algorists.com (Jeffrey Kegler) (08/31/89)
As you were warned, here is a comparison of Sun and ISA pricing. There are, necessarily, all sorts of qualifications on these number which make a direct dollar to dollar comparison difficult, and some of these are given after the numbers. Basic Setup, Sun Sun386i/150 RR150M-8-P11 $15,490 8Mbytes, 327 Mbtye disk, 1.44 Mbyte 3.5" diskette, documentation, UNIX, 20MHz 80386, 20MHz 80387, 19" monochrome monitor (1152x900) Basic Setup, ISA AST 386/C (20 MHz), 1MByte memory, 5.25" floppy 2,700 4MByte memory 1,600 4MByte memory 780 CDC Wren V hard disk, 383.3 Mbytes unformatted 2,300 DPT caching controller w/ .5 Mbyte memory 850 2Mbytes additional memory for DPT controller 850 Bell Tech (now Intel) System V, Release 3.2, w/ documentation 395 TCP/IP 245 X Windows 0 20 MHz 80387 475 Monochrome monitor (see notes) 95 Card for above 65 Bell Tech Instant Workstation board (IWS), Ethernet port, BLIT controller 1,495 BLIT Monitor 19" (1660x1200) 1,295 Logitech mouse 100 Total 13,245 Add-ons, Sun vs ISA Additional serial ports ISA (ACE 8 port serial board) 495 Sun, not available? 60M cartridge tape drive ISA 795 Sun (expansion chassis with tape drive) 1800 2nd 5.25" floppy drive ISA 150 Sun, not available? Notes: 1) The 60M cartridge tape drive for a single workstation installation is not really an option. To quote Sun's price list: "At least one tape driver per network is recommended (for disk backup)". 2) The ISA basic setup pricing includes a cheap monochrome monitor with card, because the machine will not boot without it. (Score one for Sun). 3) Using the 386i may not be the fairest thing to Sun (though they seem to be asking for it). As I understand it, the 386i will not boot DOS, and so one wonders why bother with an 80386? A major advantage of the ISA architecture is a ready resale market to power hungry DOS users, so that the 386i seems to offer all the many disadvantages of using a 386 with none of the advantages. If you are getting a Sun, you might as well get a nice 68000 or SPARC based box. 4) The BLIT monitor has about 2 megapixels, as opposed to one for the Sun. 5) The ISA setup has its price substantially increased by inclusion of a DPT caching controller. comp.unix.i386 is currently singing the praises of this beast, which gives an average seek time of about .5ms (yes that was half a millisecond), offloads much of the caching overhead from the CPU and has other nice features. I suspect for typical UNIX disk bound applications, this makes the ISA setup much faster than the Sun. 6) ISA prices are street prices, that is, prices actually paid for the stuff by me. Sun prices are from the April 1 catalog. Large discounts from the Sun prices are reportedly available, even for single purchases, while I doubt the ISA prices quoted can be much improved upon. 6) The observant will note two very different prices for the 4 Mbyte upgrades to the ISA machine. They were bought a few months apart and that accounts for the difference. It is interesting to note that the April 1 Sun price for 4Mbytes is $2000. Has this gone down since April 1? 7) I believe I could get a second disk drive (380Mbyte) for $2300. The Sun price for an additional 327Mbyte disk is $5500. Both prices exclude whatever expansion units are needed. -- Jeffrey Kegler, Independent UNIX Consultant, Algorists, Inc. jeffrey@algor2.ALGORISTS.COM or uunet!algor2!jeffrey 1762 Wainwright DR, Reston VA 22090
lwake@pitstop.West.Sun.COM (Larry Wake) (08/31/89)
In article <1989Aug30.204441.3294@algor2.algorists.com> jeffrey@algor2.UUCP (Jeffrey Kegler) attempts to compare apples... er, attempts to price compare a Sun 386i vs. a generic 386 box. First off, as Mr. Kegler himself states, using the 386i as a comparision box for a UNIX-only environment is less than fair. He asks: >As I understand it, the 386i will not boot >DOS, and so one wonders why bother with an 80386? It won't boot DOS as its native-mode operating system (using the term loosely), but it will boot DOS under UNIX and run DOS applications (lots of them, at the same time) without the overhead of emulating an Intel CPU on a foreign architecture. If you don't need this, you probably shouldn't get a 386i. If you do need it, you should add the cost of a DOS/UNIX environment to your generic system's price list. It should be fully integrated with your windowing system (X, in the system you outlined), to be fairly compared to the 386i. >A major advantage >of the ISA architecture is a ready resale market to power hungry DOS >users Yes, but what are they going to do with the other stuff you bought, that doesn't really work too well under DOS? The resale value of a Sun should not be underestimated -- that is, if you sell it to someone who wants a Sun, and not just a fast DOS box. If they want a DOS box, with none of the "Sun-ness" the 386i offers, then yes, a used boxhouse '386 would be a better deal. But they probably don't want to buy all that other stuff. >If you are getting a Sun, >you might as well get a nice 68000 or SPARC based box. So, why did you... never mind. The bottom line here is yes, with a little effort you can put together a '386 system that has most of the same bits as a Sun, and it'll come out a little cheaper. Even in your comparision, which by your admission chose a slightly more expensive Sun with no effort to mitigate the price, against a system that I would imagine took a bit of shopping around to assemble (by either you or the integrator who is packaging it), the difference is not tremendous. And... Not knowing the details of the UNIX that is packaged with it, I don't know if these are included, but I didn't see mention of NFS/ONC support, DOS Windows, a window-based source-level debugger, and a few other things that are bundled with the Sun; adding these to your list would bring the two prices yet closer. You can also get X for free for the Sun, *or* you can choose to use SunView, which although it isn't X, is a rather nice windowing system that a lot of people prefer to use. The choice is there. In future releases of the operating system, X11, NeWS, and a SunView-compatible interface will be provided as an integrated package. This is of significant value, at least to me. You'd also still be missing (uh oh, here it comes...) Sun. We may not be perfect, but we're here...rather than buying off-the-shelf pieces, you're buying a system that was designed from the bottom up to work as a unit. When you buy off-the-shelf application software for a Sun, you know (ideally -- see below) you won't have to worry if it will work with *this* display, *that* mouse, or *the other* memory board. Yes, there are still going to be problems with a product line as diverse as Sun, but these are problems that *our* staff has to work to solve, rather than yours. I'm not bringing this up to say how great Sun is, or to set people up to ask "then why doesn't Frobozz Version 2.1 work on a GX board yet?", but to point out that there is a significant piece of added value that comes with every Sun that you may not think about when you're comparing systems. Remember when I said "off-the-shelf software" up there? How much "plug 'n' play" software is there for a generic '386 UNIX box? Sun's Catalyst program offers hundreds, if not thousands, of applications by now, not to mention the large amount of Sun-specific freeware available off the net. We also provide support for third-party developers to guarantee that new software continues to appear in the future. The intent of your entries, although muted a bit as you've gone along, seems to have started as a complaint that Sun is ripping people off by charging "so much more" for systems, as compared to what Joe's Garage Boxhouse and Camera Shop charges. I don't believe that's true (else I wouldn't have come to work for Sun). The truth is closer to: If you want a generic box, and are willing to cope with the rough edges of a pieces-parts system and the lack of off-the-shelf software or company support, it's the right move for you. If you'd prefer to spend a little more money, and buy an integrated system with a lot more performance, a lot more expandability, and an upgrade path other than "sell it and buy another," take a look at Sun. I don't expect this will sway you too much, as your intent seems to be to prove that yes, a comparable machine can be bought for a lower price, but I think if you take a look, you'll see the price differential is not that great, and may in fact be non-existent, especially if you had chosen a Sparc 1 as a comparison machine rather than the 386i. I also think you've already seen that the difference is certainly nowhere near what you had originally thought it would be, even ignoring the points I've raised above. (You've also seen that our price list isn't really secret, that there is a *lot* of third party hardware available, and that Suns do have a resale market and an upgrade path. I'll also mention that we *do* offer a highres [1600x1280] monochrome screen, and that from one of our third party vendors you can even get a four megapixel 28" diagonal color screen that's fully compatible with our standard graphics libraries -- that is, all correctly written applications will work on it with no modification.) Larry Wake The Proverbial Biased Onlooker Speaking about, but not for, Sun.
mproicou@blackbird.afit.af.mil (Michael C. Proicou) (08/31/89)
In article <1989Aug30.204441.3294@algor2.algorists.com> jeffrey@algor2.UUCP (Jeffrey Kegler) writes: >As you were warned, here is a comparison of Sun and ISA pricing. Sun stuff deleted. > >AST 386/C (20 MHz), 1MByte memory, 5.25" floppy 2,700 >4MByte memory 1,600 >4MByte memory 780 >CDC Wren V hard disk, 383.3 Mbytes unformatted 2,300 >DPT caching controller w/ .5 Mbyte memory 850 >2Mbytes additional memory for DPT controller 850 >Bell Tech (now Intel) System V, Release 3.2, w/ >documentation 395 ^^^ Is this really the price for System V Unix????? I was under the impression that Unix was still > $1000 even without the troff stuff. If this price is really available, then I can actually afford a 386 box to replace my 3B1 with! Yippee! -- Mike Proicou mproicou@galaxy.afit.af.mil <- Preferred(?) Form mproicou@afit-ab.arpa <- Most Likely to Work? Go Figure!
brian@apt.UUCP (Brian Litzinger) (09/01/89)
From article <836@pitstop.West.Sun.COM>, by lwake@pitstop.West.Sun.COM (Larry Wake): > In article <1989Aug30.204441.3294@algor2.algorists.com> jeffrey@algor2.UUCP > (Jeffrey Kegler) attempts to compare apples... er, attempts to price > compare a Sun 386i vs. a generic 386 box. > > First off, as Mr. Kegler himself states, using the 386i as a comparision > box for a UNIX-only environment is less than fair. He asks: > I don't know whether or not the following comparision is fair, but we primarily sell to the goverment, and we go through a bid process where we bid against other vendors. Regularly we find among our competition SUN, HP, DEC, and "generic 386 box[es]". Our systems would probably also be called "generic 386 box[es]" by Mr. Wake. Well, we have won just about all the bids we bid on. Usually we win because of such issues as price, support, open architecture. [ I personally don't believe that SUN, HP, or DEC have anything remotely ] [ related to an open architecture. ] A system of ours similar to the one described by Mr. Kegler's original article would be about $2000 cheaper than the ISA , eventhough our slowest machines are 25Mhz and the displays are 16" 1024x768 non-interlaced color. <> Brian Litzinger @ APT Technology Inc., San Jose, CA <> UUCP: {apple,sun,pyramid}!daver!apt!brian brian@apt.UUCP <> VOICE: 408 370 9077 FAX: 408 370 9291
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (09/01/89)
In article <1320@blackbird.afit.af.mil> mproicou@blackbird.afit.af.mil (Michael C. Proicou) writes: >>Bell Tech (now Intel) System V, Release 3.2, w/ >>documentation 395 > ^^^ >Is this really the price for System V Unix????? I was under the >impression that Unix was still > $1000 even without the troff >stuff. We have to pay AT&T $180 for a many-user UNIX SVR3.0 binary sublicense; I think SVR3.2 has the same AT&T sublicense pricing. DWB (troff etc.) costs a miniscule amount extra. With documentation, and possibly some degree of vendor support, $395 is a fair retail price.
jeffrey@algor2.algorists.com (Jeffrey Kegler) (09/01/89)
In article <836@pitstop.West.Sun.COM> lwake@sun.com (Larry Wake) writes: >First off, as Mr. Kegler himself states, using the 386i as a comparision >box for a UNIX-only environment is less than fair. Call me Jeffrey. Anyway, if you don't want it compared with 80386 boxes why do you ship the 386i? Because the architecture is so much more wonderful than SPARC? :-) > [ On resale, what is a DOS using buyer ] going to do with the other > stuff you bought, that doesn't really work too well under DOS? The other stuff all works under DOS--in fact that how the diagnostics run. The only item not built with DOS primarily in mind is the BLIT monitor. The DPT controller, cartidge tape, mouse, etc. were all made for the very aggressive DOS market. You got crazy dudes out there running DOS on all sorts of major metal. >Even in your comparision, which by your admission chose a slightly >more expensive Sun with no effort to mitigate the price, against a >system that I would imagine took a bit of shopping around to assemble >(by either you or the integrator who is packaging it), the difference >is not tremendous. "My admission"? Am I on trial because I look at prices? This is what it is like on the street. My clients sure shop around and when I whine about it, they just laugh. Welcome to the NFL. Don't forget your helmet. The "difference is not tremendous" because it is not a concocted example. I just report the facts. The Sun box was picked because it is the most obvious comparison to the one I own. The prices for Sun were picked out of this book I found. It had "Sun Price List" on the cover. If these prices are such an injustice to Sun, why do they print the book? Sun either has a meaningful printed price list or it doesn't. Nobody in this argument is entitled to more than one set of facts. In comparison with the quality differences, the price difference is in fact not only "not tremendous", but insignificant. >You'd also still be missing (uh oh, here it comes...) Sun. We may >not be perfect, but we're here...rather than buying off-the-shelf >pieces, you're buying a system that was designed from the bottom up >to work as a unit. Sun is a high quality outfit. Why do you think I picked them for the comparison? I could have done the comparison with some other vendors who are not as good, but what would that prove? >The intent of your entries, although muted a bit ... I mellow as I age :-). My "intent" is to get the best price/performance I can. You got a problem with that, you got a problem with a lot of other dudes. I have no stake in any of the vendors and you work for one of them. I don't try to guess or question your intentions and you would be well advised to leave the subject entirely alone. Working for one of the parties involved simply makes you a more informed participant, as far as I am concerned. I did not find that my price comparison conclusively supported either side. So if I concocted it, I sure did a lousy job of it. -- Jeffrey Kegler, Independent UNIX Consultant, Algorists, Inc. jeffrey@algor2.ALGORISTS.COM or uunet!algor2!jeffrey 1762 Wainwright DR, Reston VA 22090
jay@silence.princeton.nj.us (Jay Plett) (09/01/89)
In article <1989Sep1.014205.12901@algor2.algorists.com>, jeffrey@algor2.algorists.com (Jeffrey Kegler) writes: > In article <836@pitstop.West.Sun.COM> lwake@sun.com (Larry Wake) writes: > > >Even in your comparision, which by your admission chose a slightly > >more expensive Sun with no effort to mitigate the price, against a > >system that I would imagine took a bit of shopping around to assemble > >(by either you or the integrator who is packaging it), the difference > >is not tremendous. > > "My admission"? Am I on trial because I look at prices? This is what > it is like on the street. My clients sure shop around and when I But if you're going to shop (a/k/a mitigate), don't stop till you've done both sides of the street. The 327MB disk in a 386i is a CDC Wren IV, no more, no less. I haven't priced a Wren IV this month, but the 2300 you paid for your V sounds like a reasonable number. So, let's cut the disk out of Sun's deal and go shopping: RR150M-8 $ 10,490 Wren IV 2,300 Total $ 12,790 For the add-ons you mentioned at the bottom of your original article, don't forget that the same boards can be plugged into the 386i's XT/AT bus. As to the added disk, most any SCSI ought to do. You can get a 700MB Wren V in a shoebox with power supply for $3000 or less. Your needs are probably different from mine. That's fine. From my viewpoint, the Sun's value looks compelling. If you don't have a good reason for needing an 80386, then run your comparison with a SPARCstation on the Sun side. It'll look better. > whine about it, they just laugh. Welcome to the NFL. Don't forget > your helmet. OK. Jay Plett jay@princeton.edu
Kemp@DOCKMASTER.NCSC.MIL (09/01/89)
Jeffrey Kegler writes: > As you were warned, here is a comparison of Sun and ISA pricing. Yes, but why did you bother. If you are going to use Sun's price list, it's only fair to use Big Blue's price list in the comparison. As you pointed out, the ISA prices you quoted are street prices, but you didn't quote street prices for the Sun system. Sun's list prices, discounted or not, are irrelevant. > 4 MB memory 1,600 > 4 MB memory 780 > CDC Wren V hard disk, 383.3 MB unformatted 2,300 With the Sun system, the CDC Wren V is 702 MB unformatted because the Sun has a SCSI interface built in. We paid $3050 for ours, and I got a later quote for $2550. As for memory, "parts is parts". I just got a quote today, from a Sun vendor, for $145/MB, or $580 for 4MB. > If you are getting a Sun, you might as well get a nice 68000 or > SPARC box. Agreed, at least with the SPARC part. I would be willing to bet that five years from now, a SPARCStation will be worth a greater percentage of its purchase price than will the ISA setup you described. Dave Kemp <Kemp@dockmaster.ncsc.mil>
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (09/01/89)
Well, I have an opportunity to directly compare a recent distribution of SunOS against System V/386. I must admit to being underwhelmed with the system administration support on the Suns. It was extremely difficult to get TCP/IP configured on the Sun... requiring the assistance of a local workstation guru... despite having sucessfully installed as well as configured it on DOS, Xenix (System III), and System V. The system administration setup in general appears to be the result of throwing features at the old Version 7 design until it came up to spec. For V.3.2, at least, the system administration and configuration setup is amazingly clean and simple to work with. After my experiences with Version 7 and System III it was like waking from a nightmare. Not that there's anything horribly wrong with Version 7... it sure beats what you have to do for a moderately complex DOS setup... but it's about time this sort of stuff was at least slightly cleaned up, eh? -- Peter da Silva, *NIX support guy @ Ferranti International Controls Corporation. Biz: peter@ficc.uu.net, +1 713 274 5180. Fun: peter@sugar.hackercorp.com. `-_-' "Your mother applies makeup with a hot-glue gun. Your sister bites mailmen.'U` Your face looks like it's been washed in acid and dried with a cheese-grater."
lwake@pitstop.West.Sun.COM (Larry Wake) (09/02/89)
In article <1989Sep1.014205.12901@algor2.algorists.com> jeffrey@algor2.UUCP (Jeffrey Kegler) responds to my pro-Sun screed, but first stops to request: >Call me Jeffrey. Can I call you Tim? >why do you ship the 386i? Because the architecture is so much more wonderful >than SPARC? :-) As I said before, because DOS applications are written for the Intel architecture, and as such, tend to run faster on an Intel chip. A lot of our customers want to run DOS applications fast, so we give them what they want. We're a customer-driven kind of company. >"My admission"? Am I on trial because I look at prices? Well, you seemed to be putting Sun on trial for its prices, so I rashly went out on a limb to point out that we return reasonable value for what we charge. Sorry. I didn't think you'd take offense at a response to your posting; this sort of thing happens all the time here. Welcome to Usenet. Be sure to wear your helmet. :-) >The prices for Sun >were picked out of this book I found. It had "Sun Price List" on the >cover. If these prices are such an injustice to Sun, why do they >print the book? That's not what I said; in fact, I said that our prices are fair. What I tried to say was that the *comparison* was not as fair as it might've been, as value included in the Sun price was not matched in the generic system you listed. If this wasn't clear, I apologize. Take two on what I was trying to say: buying a generic system *can* save you money. Not a whole lot, which I guess is what your entry was really saying. My point, and I'm sorry if you found it uncalled-for, was that you do get something for the money you spend on a Sun. >My "intent" is to get the best >price/performance I can. You got a problem with that, you got a >problem with a lot of other dudes. No problem here with that; it's what Sun tries to provide. >I don't try to guess or >question your intentions and you would be well advised to leave the >subject entirely alone. Working for one of the parties involved >simply makes you a more informed participant, as far as I am >concerned. Hmm, not sure what you're trying to say here. First sentence seems to say "butt out..." second one seems to say "...even though you might have something valid to contribute." Anyway, I'll end my part of this particular thread here, especially since it isn't a particularly c.u.w kind o' topic anyway. Sorry if I'm coming off as a sales dweeb, which I'm not; it's just that I liked the company enough to finally come to work for it, and I felt it was being slammed due to misinformation, albeit unintentional misinformation.
wyle@inf.ethz.ch (Mitchell Wyle) (09/02/89)
>But if you're going to shop (a/k/a mitigate), don't stop till you've >done both sides of the street. I was under the impression that a previous thread, which lead to this one, established that distribution channels were more important than price or performance. I am very surprized that Sun does so *well* in price compared to the generic DOS nachfolgers. A Sun workstation comes with Sun-OS. You can't buy Sun-OS at any price for your DOS machine. The qualitative difference between Sun-OS and the other "nixes on intel iron is worth a lot of money. How many boxes does Compaq chip per year? Sun? When you buy your DOS motor, you get it the same week. You can wait a long time for your Sun. Sun exists because their boxes are faster, the software quality is better, and of course, religion. >Your needs are probably different from mine. That's fine. From my >viewpoint, the Sun's value looks compelling. If you don't have a >good reason for needing an 80386, then run your comparison with a >SPARCstation on the Sun side. It'll look better. MTBF is another big issue which you are all ignoring. Bechtolsheim stressed the fact that SPARCstations will probably fail less often because of the way they're built. They're also much easier to tinker around with because robots have to assemble them, and humans are still better manipulators. >> whine about it, they just laugh. Welcome to the NFL. Don't forget >> your helmet. >OK. There are too many more important issues (religion probably leads the list) which you are not considering. MTBF, quality of service (hw, sw), software available, expandability, etc. > jay@princeton.edu This discussion is enlightened, well-written, enjoyable, and filled with interesting facts about street prices and experience. Please continue. I, for one, am learning a lot.
bill@twwells.com (T. William Wells) (09/03/89)
In article <1452@ethz-inf.UUCP> wyle@ethz.UUCP (Mitchell Wyle) writes:
: I am very surprized that Sun does so *well* in price compared to the
: generic DOS nachfolgers. A Sun workstation comes with Sun-OS. You
: can't buy Sun-OS at any price for your DOS machine.
Rumor says that there is someone porting SunOS to a generic '386
platform.
We can hope.
---
Bill { uunet | novavax | ankh | sunvice } !twwells!bill
bill@twwells.com