nall@loligo.cc.fsu.edu (John Nall) (09/28/89)
(Disclaimer: This sounds like a joke. Please be
assured that it is not).
We are an organization that has only recently moved
to Unix. Due to events beyond our control (i.e., the
decision by Control Data to dissolve ETA Systems) we
are quickly having to acquire local Unix expertise. I
am charged with hiring a few "Unix wizards". But I
don't know how in the $%%#^% to tell one, since there
is no one locally who qualifies, and God knows that I
don't! I suppose I could ask all the questions that are
in the "list of frequently asked Unix questions" and if
they flunked THAT, then they don't qualify.
Any suggestions? Please e-mail, and I promise not to
summarize (although it might be entertaining for this
group).
======================================================================
John Nall Internet: nall@nu.cs.fsu.edu
Computer Science Department Florida State University
"Today, a Moon Moth -- tomorrow, a Sea Dragon Conquerer!!"jc@minya.UUCP (John Chambers) (10/11/89)
In article <219@vsserv.scri.fsu.edu>, nall@loligo.cc.fsu.edu (John Nall) writes: > I am charged with hiring a few "Unix wizards". But I > don't know how in the $%%#^% to tell one, since there > is no one locally who qualifies, and God knows that I > don't! I suppose I could ask all the questions that are > in the "list of frequently asked Unix questions" and if > they flunked THAT, then they don't qualify. Some time ago, I ran across the advice that the best way to determine whether someone was really an expert was to ask any reasonably complex question, and if the answer starts with "That depends...", then you know you have an expert. Since then, I've discovered that this is only partially facetious. While not true itself, the inverse has a great deal of truth. You see, there's a general phomenon that, when people are trying to pretend to expertise, they usually make the mistake of trying to give quick, definitive answers. Most people think that this is a sign of thorough knowledge of a subject. In fact, as various sages throughout history have observed, one of the things known by a true expert is how much more there is to learn, and how complicated the subject truly is. Anyhow, I always try to start answers with "That depends...". (;-) -- #echo 'Opinions Copyright 1989 by John Chambers; for licensing information contact:' echo ' John Chambers <{adelie,ima,mit-eddie}!minya!{jc,root}> (617/484-6393)' echo '' saying
rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) (10/12/89)
Another interesting observation on spotting wizards is: If they call themselves a wizard (especially on a business card or resume) they are not. The true wizards never call themselves wizard/guru. They dont have to. (Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people that think that because they installed unix on a pc or a sun workstation they are automatically wizards.) ---rick
bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) (10/12/89)
From article <69985@uunet.UU.NET>, by rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams): > The true wizards never call themselves wizard/guru. They dont have > to. Nor do they want to, because then members of the dread species "user" would ask them questions, decreasing the time they get to spend programming! Paul DuBois stewed-monkey-heads@primate.wisc.edu
scott@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Scott Hazen Mueller) (10/13/89)
foo() {FILE *wizard; tell(wizard); }
--
Scott Hazen Mueller| scott@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (ames|pyramid|vsi1)!zorch!scott
685 Balfour Drive | (408) 298-6213 |Mail to fusion-request@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG
San Jose, CA 95111 |No room for quote.|for sci.physics.fusion digests via emailjfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) (10/13/89)
In article <917@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG> scott@zorch.SF-Bay.ORG (Scott Hazen Mueller) writes: >foo() {FILE *wizard; tell(wizard); } WRONG. foo() { FILE *wizard; ftell (wizard); } My contribution to the discussion - Real UNIX Wizards(TM) recite source code, including line number and file name. Frequently they will tell you what they were thinking when they wrote the code. And if they didn't write the code themselves, they know who did and have their phone number and email address. -- John F. Haugh II +-Things you didn't want to know:------ VoiceNet: (512) 832-8832 Data: -8835 | The real meaning of MACH is ... InterNet: jfh@rpp386.cactus.org | ... Messages Are Crufty Hacks. UUCPNet: {texbell|bigtex}!rpp386!jfh +--------------------------------------
kilroy@mimsy.UUCP (Overworked & Underpaid) (10/13/89)
In article <31@minya.UUCP>, in response to a question about determining a `Unix Wizard', jc@minya.UUCP (John Chambers) writes: > >[T]o determine whether someone was really an expert [...] ask any reasonably >complex question, and if the answer starts with "That depends...", then you >know you have an expert. [...] You see, there's a general phomenon that, >when people are trying to pretend to expertise, they usually make the >mistake of trying to give quick, definitive answers. Isn't it interesting to note that John tries to give a quick, definitive answer here? 8^) As he pointed out, the heuristic isn't perfect: I do not recall *ever* hearing Chris Torek start an answer with `that depends', unless it was a question about where to have dinner... kilroy@cs.umd.edu Darren F. Provine ...uunet!mimsy!kilroy "The best speech is what is short and reasonable." Ali ibn-abu-Talib, cit. from Ali the Caliph
terryl@tekcrl.LABS.TEK.COM (10/14/89)
In article <69985@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: >Another interesting observation on spotting wizards is: > > If they call themselves a wizard (especially on a business > card or resume) they are not. > > The true wizards never call themselves wizard/guru. They dont have > to. And you want to know why??? If that information gets out (that so-and-so is a wizard), then said wizard never gets any REAL work done because naive users keeps bothering said wizard with all sorts of stupid questions that could have been answered if they had just read the man page..... > (Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people that think > that because they installed unix on a pc or a sun workstation > they are automatically wizards.) Well, I don't have any experience with this, so I can't comment on it...
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (10/14/89)
I think one way to spot wizards if you aren't one is to pose some practical problems for them to solve and see what they come up with. Examples: Need to control access to "public" resources such as magtape to prevent users getting in each others' way. Need to locate source for X Windows. Need guaranteed real-time response for certain processes. If you basically understand UNIX and Kernighan&Pike's book, you should be able to evaluate proposed solutions for correctness completeness implementability elegance Not every true "wizard" will perform perfectly on all such problems, but anyone who can't come up with reasonable responses to ANY of them is clearly not a wizard.
Kemp@DOCKMASTER.NCSC.MIL (10/16/89)
Doug Gwyn writes: > I think one way to spot wizards if you aren't one is to pose some > practical problems for them to solve and see what they come up with. > > Examples: > [...] > Need guaranteed real-time response for certain processes. Gee Doug, how do you do that one, other than running under Masscomp's Real-Time Unix or using a slave processor with something like VRTX or VX/Works? Or by "real-time" do you mean "anything under 10,000 usec"? :-) Dave Kemp <Kemp@dockmaster.ncsc.mil>
bzs@cs.bu.edu (Barry Shein) (10/16/89)
> > Need guaranteed real-time response for certain processes. > >Gee Doug, how do you do that one, other than running under Masscomp's >Real-Time Unix or using a slave processor with something like VRTX or >VX/Works? > >Or by "real-time" do you mean "anything under 10,000 usec"? :-) > > Dave Kemp <Kemp@dockmaster.ncsc.mil> Gee, I thought the right answer was "you can't" unless (add in your caveats and the possibility of hacking your own kernel.) Maybe that was the answer Doug was looking for? How do you tell a wizard? If you have to ask you can't afford it. -Barry Shein Software Tool & Die, Purveyors to the Trade 1330 Beacon Street, Brookline, MA 02146, (617) 739-0202 Internet: bzs@world.std.com UUCP: encore!xylogics!world!bzs or uunet!world!bzs
madd@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Jim Frost) (10/16/89)
In article <17131@rpp386.cactus.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes: |And if they didn't write the code themselves, they know who did |and have their phone number and email address. What's a phone? Does it have a keyboard? Then what good is it? jim frost madd@std.com
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (10/16/89)
In article <21153@adm.BRL.MIL> Kemp@DOCKMASTER.NCSC.MIL writes: >Doug Gwyn writes: > > Examples: > > [...] > > Need guaranteed real-time response for certain processes. >Gee Doug, how do you do that one, other than running under Masscomp's >Real-Time Unix or using a slave processor with something like VRTX or >VX/Works? I told you it was a wizard question! Actually, when John Quarterman and I worked for Geotronics (something he may not admit to!), we had to solve exactly this problem. Fortunately we were UNIX wizards, or something close.
gilgut@cg-atla.UUCP (S. P. Gilgut) (10/16/89)
In article <4846@tekcrl.LABS.TEK.COM> terryl@tekcrl.LABS.TEK.COM writes: >In article <69985@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: >>Another interesting observation on spotting wizards is: ><stuff deleted> >> (Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people that think >> that because they installed unix on a pc or a sun workstation >> they are automatically wizards.) > > Well, I don't have any experience with this, so I can't comment on it... Ahh - Real Wizards *don't* do PCs! -- S. P. Gilgut, Agfa Compugraphic Div; Wilmington, Mass. (508)658-5600 X5277 {uunet!ginosko,decvax}!cg-atla!gilgut (Work) R & D Computer Center {uunet!ginosko,cg-atla}!wizvax!spg (Home) if (inmail) add_Enquirer_headline()
bph@buengc.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) (10/16/89)
In article <40457@bu-cs.BU.EDU> madd@cs.bu.edu (Jim Frost) writes: >In article <17131@rpp386.cactus.org> jfh@rpp386.cactus.org (John F. Haugh II) writes: >|And if they didn't write the code themselves, they know who did >|and have their phone number and email address. > >What's a phone? Does it have a keyboard? Then what good is it? This one does: Script started on Mon Oct 16 10:00:24 1989 subwhat? cu 3539601 /dev/modem: No such file or directory link down subwhat? script done on Mon Oct 16 10:00:36 1989 Uh, well, er -- Nynex! The Nynex strike thing has got it all, er, plugged up with extra bytes...yeah, that's it.. --Blair "...that depends on the ticket..."
gordon@prls.UUCP (Gordon Vickers) (10/16/89)
From "Kernel Structure and Flow", prepared by Bill Rieken and Jim Web
of .sh conusulting inc. (a seminar notebook), the inside front cover:
(Definitions for beginner, novice, user, knowlegable user, expert
and hacker omited )
Guru:
- users m4 and lex with comfort - can answer any Unix question
- writes assembly code with 'cat >' after a little thought
- uses adb on the kernel while system - uses make for anything that
is loaded. requires two or more distinct
- customizes utilities by patching commands to achieve
the source. - has learned how to breach
- reads device driver source with security, but no longer needs
his breakfast. to try.
Wizard:
- writes device drivers with 'cat >' - writes his own troff macro
- fixes bugs by patching the binaries. packages
- can answer any question before - is on first-name basis with
you ask. Dennis, Bill, and Ken.
Disclaimer: This material was in no way representable of the course
material. :-)
Gordon Vickers 408/991-5370 (Sunnyvale,Ca); {mips|pyramid|philabs}!prls!gordon
------------------------------------------------------------------------------
Earth is a complex array of symbiotic relationships:
Every extinction, whether animal, mineral, or vegetable, hastens our own demise.davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (10/17/89)
In article <21154@adm.BRL.MIL>, bzs@cs.bu.edu (Barry Shein) writes: | How do you tell a wizard? If you have to ask you can't afford it. You can't tell a wizard. You can ask, politely. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "The world is filled with fools. They blindly follow their so-called 'reason' in the face of the church and common sense. Any fool can see that the world is flat!" - anon
carey@m.cs.uiuc.edu (10/17/89)
So the unix wizard's magic incantation is "that depends..." ???
This approach can be really annoying... ask someone a question, their
response is "that depends, is it an ACME computer? Does it have front
panel switches? Do you have widgets, geehaws, or shebangers? Is it
version 5.8.0.3a? What do people use it for? Do you run wat4? Did
you get this from a reputable dealer? What is the astrological configuration?
........
So you spend half an hour going over all the "that depends" and it turns
out the guy is just stalling to cover up his answer which is "I dunno"
I would rather answer a question, "in most circumstances (or in my experience)
this is most likely to be the answer" ... (then give an answer which is
probably wrong anyway), then say " but that depends on this and that,
and the other thing, blah, blah, blah.....
-----
John Carey (not a unix wizard)
University of Illinois
Dept. of Computer Science
carey@a.cs.uiuc.edu
{uu-net,pur-ee,convex,...}!uiucdcs!careymark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) (10/17/89)
In article <69985@uunet.UU.NET>, rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: > > (Unfortunately, there are a hell of a lot of people that think > that because they installed unix on a pc or a sun workstation > they are automatically wizards.) Especially if they had to modify a makefile during the automated installation script! :-) And how about the guy who can recite every buzz word on the front cover of _PC WEEK-, or _COMPUTERWORLD_. -- Adelphi University, Garden City, NY 11530 (516) 663-1170 Department of Mathematics and Computer Science markd@adelphi.UUCP or mark@promark.UUCP UUCP: uunet!mimsy!rutgers!columbia!adelphi!markd
dhesi@sun505.UUCP (Rahul Dhesi) (10/17/89)
A real wizard is willing to let somebody have the last word, even if the other person is wrong. *Especially* when the other person is wrong. Rahul Dhesi <dhesi%cirrusl@oliveb.ATC.olivetti.com> UUCP: oliveb!cirrusl!dhesi
moraes@cs.toronto.edu (Mark Moraes) (10/17/89)
gordon@prls.UUCP (Gordon Vickers) writes (from an old Paul Chisholm posting to net.jokes, if I remember right): > GURU: > ... > - uses adb on the kernel while system is loaded Since it is now common practice for manufacturers to NOT ship adb with their systems ("dbx does everything you need to, honest." Ha!), this definition may need some revision :-)
rosen@schizo.samsung.com (MFHorn) (10/17/89)
In article <89Oct17.001354edt.3270@neat.cs.toronto.edu> moraes@cs.toronto.edu (Mark Moraes) writes: gordon@prls.UUCP (Gordon Vickers) writes: > GURU: > ... > - uses adb on the kernel while system is loaded I enjoyed the time I used a Unix system to edit a VMS binary. GNU emacs under VMS couldn't handle it. Since it is now common practice for manufacturers to NOT ship adb with their systems ("dbx does everything you need to, honest." Ha!), this definition may need some revision :-) But a True Guru might still be using one of the old, original true Unixes (Unixi?). Is fsdb still shipped with SysV? It was fun to play with, especially on mounted filesystems.. [The burning question: Does this news poster append .signature?] -- Andy Rosen | rosen@samsung.com | "I got this guitar Samsung Software America | rosen@ginosko.UUCP | and I learned how One Corporate Drive | (508) 685-7200 | to make it talk" Andover, MA 01810 | | -Thunder Road
szirin@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (seth.zirin) (10/18/89)
A REAL wizard does not have an nauseatingly ostentatious .signature file and frowns on those that do... Seth Zirin
bph@buengc.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) (10/18/89)
In article <ROSEN.89Oct17091413@schizo.samsung.com> rosen@schizo.samsung.com (MFHorn) writes: >In article <89Oct17.001354edt.3270@neat.cs.toronto.edu> moraes@cs.toronto.edu (Mark Moraes) writes: > > Since it is now common practice for manufacturers to NOT ship adb with > their systems ("dbx does everything you need to, honest." Ha!), this > definition may need some revision :-) > >But a True Guru might still be using one of the old, original true >Unixes (Unixi?). And if not, the binary editor "bed" is available from your friendly neighborhood comp.sources.unix archive... ...the rest, as they say, is up to you. --Blair "Any points for getting SPICE files off a munged TK50 dump(8) tape?"
pyr4@psc90.UUCP (**** The Wizard ****) (10/18/89)
Guys haven't you got anything better to talk about, after all who really cares about, "How do you tell a wizard?", I don't. I get a little sick of reading these reams of garbage. Hold the flames. | Ted Wisniewski UUCP: uunet!unh!psc90!pyr4 or: dartvax!psc90!pyr4 | | Plymouth State College | | Plymouth NH, 03264 If I spoke for PSC they would pay me,| | But instead I pay them. |
campbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim Campbell) (10/18/89)
Some years ago, I saw a description of how to tell the
level of the individual with respect ot their UNIX knowledge.
ie: NOVICE:
Calls vi vye
etc
Unfortunately for me, I misplaced it and have looked for it
ever since. If anyone has this file, I would greatly appreciate a copy.
Might even be appropriate to post it here (again?).
Thanks in advance.madd@world.std.com (jim frost) (10/19/89)
In article <89Oct17.001354edt.3270@neat.cs.toronto.edu> moraes@cs.toronto.edu (Mark Moraes) writes: >> GURU: >> ... >> - uses adb on the kernel while system is loaded > >Since it is now common practice for manufacturers to NOT ship adb with >their systems ("dbx does everything you need to, honest." Ha!), this >definition may need some revision :-) Who needs adb. "ln -s /dev/tty foo.c ; cc -o foo foo.c ; foo ; rm foo foo.c" and type a quicky to nlist for the symbol then write the patch to kmem. You don't even need cat. Alternatively you might consider actually saving the program but it's less fun that way. Kids, don't try this at home. jim frost software tool & die madd@std.com
steved@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu (Steve Dempsey) (10/19/89)
In article <218@promark.UUCP>, mark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) writes: > And how about the guy who can recite every buzz word on the front cover of > _PC WEEK-, or _COMPUTERWORLD_. This would be a goupie, not a wizard. Steve Dempsey, Center for Computer Assisted Engineering Colorado State University, Fort Collins, CO 80523 +1 303 491 0630 INET: steved@longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu, dempsey@handel.CS.ColoState.Edu UUCP: boulder!ccncsu!longs.LANCE.ColoState.Edu!steved, ...!ncar!handel!dempsey
exspes@gdr.bath.ac.uk (P E Smee) (10/19/89)
You can always tell a wizard. You just can't tell him much... -- Paul Smee | JANET: Smee@uk.ac.bristol Computer Centre | BITNET: Smee%uk.ac.bristol@ukacrl.bitnet University of Bristol | Internet: Smee%uk.ac.bristol@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (Phone: +44 272 303132) | UUCP: ...!mcvax!ukc!gdr.bath.ac.uk!exspes
bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral) (10/19/89)
From article <955@umb.umb.edu>, by campbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim Campbell): > Some years ago, I saw a description of how to tell the > level of the individual with respect ot their UNIX knowledge. > ie: NOVICE: > Calls vi vye > etc I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. Paul DuBois dubois@primate.wisc.edu
tchrist@convex.COM (Tom Christiansen) (10/19/89)
In article <955@umb.umb.edu> campbell@umb.edu (Jim Campbell) writes: >Some years ago, I saw a description of how to tell the >level of the individual with respect ot their UNIX knowledge. >ie: NOVICE: > Calls vi vye > etc First a minor flame, then the answer to this man's query. I would say that a rose by any other name would still smell as sweet. Do we not live in a pluralistic society? Judging someone's education, intelligence, or technical expertise based upon their particular accent is, although not atypical, hinging upon bigoted and narrow-minded. What does it matter if /etc/fsck is called 'fuzz-check', 'effess-check', 'fisk', or 'effessceekay', except that some of those choices are slightly more expedient than others? In the case of those people who call /bin/ed "ed" and /usr/ucb/vi "vye" and /etc/fsck "fisk", it would appear that they've chosen the path of expediency, a common theme in natural language evolution. There is no Royal Academy of the English Language, as exists for most of the Romance tongues. This is a feature, not a bug. There is no One True Way of pronouncing the words "route", "rout", and "root"; few people not of the same geographic region will agree on this, and to judge them as sub-intelligent because of this is simply wrong. There, that said, I present you with what may be the text you are looking for. --tom .po 1i .he ''Unix Hierarchy'' .sz 10 .lp .nf .na .b "NAME DESCRIPTION AND FEATURES" beginner - insecure with the concept of a terminal - has yet to learn the basics of \fIvi\fR - has not figured out how to get a directory - still has trouble with typing <RETURN> after each line of input novice - knows that \fIls\fP will produce a directory - uses the editor, but calls it `vye' - has heard of \fIC\fR but never used it - has had his first bad experience with \fIrm\fR - is wondering how to read his mail - is wondering why the person next to him seems to like Unix so very much user - uses \fIvi\fR and \fInroff\fR, but inexpertly - has heard of regular-expressions but never seen one. - has figured out that `-' precedes options - has attempted to write a \fIC\fR program and has decided to stick with pascal - is wondering how to move a directory - thinks that \fIdbx\fR is a brand of stereo component - knows how to read his mail and is wondering how to read the news knowledgable - uses \fInroff\fR with no trouble, and is beginning user to learn \fItbl\fR and \fIeqn\fR - uses grep to search for fixed strings - has figured out that \fImv\fR will move directories - has learned that \fIlearn\fR doesn't help - somebody has shown him how to write C programs - once used \fIsed\fR to do some text substitution - has seen \fIdbx\fR used but does not use it himself - thinks that \fImake\fR is only for wimps expert - uses \fIsed\fR when necessary - uses macros in \fIvi,\fR uses \fIex\fR when neccesary - posts news at every possible opportunity - write \fIcsh\fR scripts occasionally - write \fIC\fR programs using \fIvi\fR and compiles with \fIcc\fR - has figured out what `&&' and `||' are for - thinks that human history started with '!h' hacker - uses \fIsed\fR and \fIawk\fR with comfort - uses undocumented features of \fIvi\fR - write \fIC\fR code with `cat >' and compiles with '!cc' - uses \fIadb\fR because he doesn't trust source debuggers - can answer questions about the user environment - writes his own \fInroff\fR macros to supplement std. ones - write scripts for Bourne shell (/bin/sh) - knows how to install bug fixes guru - uses \fIm4\fR and \fIlex\fR with comfort - writes assembly code with `cat >' - uses \fIadb\fR on the kernel while system is loaded - customizes utilities by patching the source - reads device driver source with his breakfast - can answer any unix question after a little thought - uses \fImake\fR for anything that requires two or more distinct commands to achieve - has learned how to breach security but no longer needs to try wizard - writes device drivers with `cat >' - fixes bugs by patching the binaries - can answer any question before you ask - writes his own \fItroff\fR macro packages - is on first-name basis with Dennis, Bill, and Ken Tom Christiansen {uunet,uiucdcs,sun}!convex!tchrist Convex Computer Corporation tchrist@convex.COM "EMACS belongs in <sys/errno.h>: Editor too big!"
tim@binky.sybase.com (Tim Wood) (10/20/89)
In article <9100017@m.cs.uiuc.edu> carey@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >So the unix wizard's magic incantation is "that depends..." ??? > >This approach can be really annoying... ask someone a question, their >response is "that depends, is it [ any of the following things ]" > >So you spend half an hour going over all the "that depends" and it turns >out the guy is just stalling to cover up his answer which is "I dunno" > >I would rather answer a question, "in most circumstances (or in my experience) >this is most likely to be the answer" ... (then give an answer which is >probably wrong anyway), then say " but that depends on this and that, >and the other thing, blah, blah, blah..... Your preferred response may seem friendlier, but it conveys less information. Someone saying "it depends" is explicitly asking you for more information, so that they can give a more coherent answer. They are also implicitly giving you information. "It depends" sometimes means "did you check...?". Just knowing some of the contingencies of the problem can greatly aid your understanding. Even if the answer is not deposited directly in your hand, you may gain enough information to answer it yourself. Generalized answers don't tell you why they are correct or reveal incorrect reasoning when they are wrong. So you come away with incomplete or incorrect knowlege. When it comes to computers, there are very few one-sentence answers. Ability to leverage the input of others to solve your own problems is a major determiner of success. -TW Sybase, Inc. / 6475 Christie Ave. / Emeryville, CA / 94608 415-596-3500 tim@sybase.com {pacbell,pyramid,sun,{uunet,ucbvax}!mtxinu}!sybase!tim Voluntary disclaimer: This message is solely my personal opinion. It is not a representation of Sybase, Inc. OK.
chip@ateng.com (Chip Salzenberg) (10/20/89)
According to pyr4@psc90.UUCP (**** The Wizard ****): >Guys haven't you got anything better to talk about, after all who really >cares about, "How do you tell a wizard?", I don't. I get a little sick >of reading these reams of garbage. Hold the flames. > >| Ted Wisniewski UUCP: uunet!unh!psc90!pyr4 or: dartvax!psc90!pyr4 | >| Plymouth State College | >| Plymouth NH, 03264 If I spoke for PSC they would pay me,| >| But instead I pay them. | GEE, WIZARD! IS THAT YOUR REAL NAME? BOY IT REALLY GETS ME MAD LIKE YOU WHEN PEOPLE TALK ABOUT THINGS I DON'T UNDERSTAND. BUT I GUESS YOU KNOW THAT. :-) :-) AND IT REALLY FROSTS MY SHORTS (HA! HA! THAT'S SO FUNNY) WHEN PEOPLE FLAME ME JUST BECAUSE I FLAME THEM. EVEN WHEN I TELL THEM NOT TO. THEIR STUPID, ARE'NT THEY? -- BIFF BIFF@PSUVM BIFF.BIFFSON@CUP.PORTAL.COM
bph@buengc.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) (10/20/89)
In article <1019@psc90.UUCP> pyr4@.UUCP (**** The Wizard ****) writes: ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I doubt this mightily. >Guys haven't you got anything better to talk about, after all who really >cares about, "How do you tell a wizard?", I don't. I get a little sick >of reading these reams of garbage. Hold the flames. That depends... Put the following in a file named ~pyr4/News/comp/unix/wizards/KILL /tell a wizard/:j and stop being so intolerant. --Blair "If you can identify the problem, then what's the problem? You don't know how to form the solution? ...there is no problem other than ignorance, therefore."
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) (10/20/89)
As quoted from <26894@prls.UUCP> by gordon@prls.UUCP (Gordon Vickers): +--------------- | Wizard: | - writes device drivers with 'cat >' - writes his own troff macro | - fixes bugs by patching the binaries. packages | - can answer any question before - is on first-name basis with | you ask. Dennis, Bill, and Ken. +--------------- Well, I've got two of the requisites... does that make me half a wizard, or a half-*ssed wizard? ;-) ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc allbery@NCoast.ORG uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu bsa@telotech.uucp 161-7070 (MCI), ALLBERY (Delphi), B.ALLBERY (GEnie), comp-sources-misc@backbone [comp.sources.misc-related mail should go ONLY to comp-sources-misc@<backbone>] *Third party vote-collection service: send mail to allbery@uunet.uu.net (ONLY)*
mcgrath@paris.Berkeley.EDU (Roland McGrath) (10/20/89)
Guys haven't you got anything better to talk about, after all who really cares about, "How do you tell a wizard?", I don't. I get a little sick of reading these reams of garbage. Hold the flames. Real wizards no longer have anything better to do. -- Roland McGrath Free Software Foundation, Inc. roland@ai.mit.edu, uunet!ai.mit.edu!roland
waw103@tijc02.UUCP (Alan Watson ) (10/20/89)
From article <917@uakari.primate.wisc.edu>, by bin@primate.wisc.edu (Brain in Neutral): > From article <955@umb.umb.edu>, by campbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim Campbell): >> ie: NOVICE: Calls vi vye > I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vye. Including novices. waw@rti!tijc02
hubcap@hubcap.clemson.edu (Mike Marshall) (10/20/89)
How do you tell a wizard? It is apparent that s/he has RTFMed.
*
* An Introduction to Display Editing with Vi
*
*
* William Joy
...
*
* 1. Getting started
*
* This document provides a quick introduction to vi. (Pronounced
* vee-eye.) You...
*
:-) :-)...
-Mike hubcap@clemson.edubarnett@crdgw1.crd.ge.com (Bruce Barnett) (10/20/89)
>I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards.
Wrong crowd, I guess. :-)
According to the BSD manual, written by William Joy and Mark Horton,
"vi" is pronounced vee-eye.
Barnett's first rule of wizardry detection: :-)
"Real wizards don't RTFM, they WTFM!"
--
Bruce G. Barnett <barnett@crd.ge.com> uunet!crdgw1!barnettcampbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim Campbell) (10/20/89)
You don't tell a wizard, s/he already knows ;-)
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (10/20/89)
In article <917@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu writes: >I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. "I guess you don't know any wizards, then."
ip@me.utoronto.ca (Bevis Ip) (10/21/89)
In article <917@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu writes: >I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. Even our chinese scholar who onlys know a few essential Unix commands to survive and quits "vi" by typing control-Z learned to call "vi" vee-eye! Gee your "wizards" are welcome to come up north and talk with our chinese scholar.
mark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) (10/21/89)
I have worked with one flavor of Unix or another for several years, and
to this day will not call myself a wizard. I have long felt it was a form
of rationalization. Wizard implies "knows all", and Unix is ever growing
with each release of the operating system. BSD flavors that meet SVID.
System V with BSD extentions, different with every vendor.
However, I have found the following holds true for
most *very knowledegable Unix people* :
1 They have seen and/or modified Unix source at the kernel and
provided utilities level.
2 They have implimented, at least once, a device driver, or some
other kernel linkable code, and know how much fun it is to
debug this code.
3 They all have at least one beat up copy of the C bible, possibly
hard cover, or if not, the front or back cover is gone.
4 They have a copy of either the BSD or System V "Implimentation of
the Unix operating system."
5 All the above books have pages that are starting to bio-degrade
from age.
6 They have a copy of the SVID from AT&T if they work with SYSTEM V.
7 They all spell kernel as KERNEL, not KERNAL.
8 They don't call themselves wizards, but the people around them
usually do.
Each one of these alone does not constitute a wizard, especially 2, and 3.
But In the case of 2, it has been my experience that if they have been there
a few times, they know their way around pretty well.
--
Adelphi University, Garden City, NY 11530 (516) 663-1170
Department of Mathematics and Computer Science
markd@adelphi.UUCP or mark@promark.UUCP
UUCP: uunet!mimsy!rutgers!columbia!adelphi!markdtale@pawl.rpi.edu (David C Lawrence) (10/21/89)
In <4588@buengc.BU.EDU> bph@buengc.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) writes:
Blair> Put the following in a file named ~pyr4/News/comp/unix/wizards/KILL
Blair> /tell a wizard/:j
Blair> and stop being so intolerant.
Wizards don't make assumptions about what software someone is running.
--
(setq mail '("tale@pawl.rpi.edu" "tale@itsgw.rpi.edu" "tale@rpitsmts.bitnet"))ok@cs.mu.oz.au (Richard O'Keefe) (10/21/89)
In article <89Oct20.205428edt.19392@me.utoronto.ca>, ip@me.utoronto.ca (Bevis Ip) writes: > In article <917@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu writes: > >I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. > Even our chinese scholar who onlys know a few essential Unix commands to > survive and quits "vi" by typing control-Z learned to call "vi" vee-eye! There are two separate questions: "what does the manual say the program is to be called" and "what might a wizard actually call it". Someone who has read and understood the vi manual might know perfectly well what the authors wanted it to be called, but use something less printable. Just like people pronounce MS-DOS "mess-doss" or "em ess doesn't". Too bad the C book didn't say how to pronounce "char" or I could tell the people who pronounce it "care" that they aren't Real Wizards (TM) even if they _can_ write code that works.
jeffm@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu (Jeff Medcalf) (10/21/89)
In article <917@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu writes: >I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. > >Paul DuBois Happens here all the time. Everyone here, including wizards, calls vi vee-eye. Occasionally, it will be referred to as visual, though that is rare. I have never heard it called vye even by novices, but then we have an orientation that includes use of the vi editor, so users get the "correct" pronunciation right off. -- Jeff Medcalf jeffm@uokmax.uucp jeffm@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu !chinet!uokmax!jeffm jeffm@invent_an_address (as reliable as the preceeding) In 1869, the waffle iron was invented, thus solving the annoying tendency of
mhw@wittsend.lbp.harris.com (Michael H. Warfield (Mike)) (10/22/89)
In article <227@promark.UUCP> mark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) writes: >8 They don't call themselves wizards, but the people around them > usually do. This is an important point and yet this is the first article I've read that mentions it. Maybe it's so obvious that it shouldn't need stating. I've know several individuals that have considered THEMSELVES wizards or guru's. They rarely are. One particular individual I refered to as a "guru in his own mind". Unfortunately, he overheard me (I thought he was in Florida!). Fortunately we are good friends and he has a excelent sense of humor (I say this because he's probably reading this :-) ). Being a wizard is not something you bestow upon yourself. This is something your peers decide about you. There may well individuals around who could not begin to hold their own in this group (I'm still not quite sure about myself) and yet their co-workers and friends call them a wizard. If they provide the leadership, support, and training to those others then their peers are justified in titling them so. There are, undoubtly, individuals who could give us all lessons and yet they and their friends consider them to be nothing extraordinary. If my friends want to call me a wizard, well I guess that means I just have to work harder to live up to the reputation they have given me. At the same time, I try to enjoy it and make fun of the designation. My .sig line is more of a jab at being called a wizard (only a mad one) than claiming to be one (but it does match my initials :-) ). Our Unix User's group has a guru rap session each month for people to come in and have problems answered by others who may have "been there before". I have made a point to be there as much as I can to "soak up" the knowledge as much as anything else. I have helped solved some peoples problems. I consider that advance payment on the inevitable day when I NEED HELP. That makes me a wizard or guru only if and as far as that's how others see me. Not how I see myself. And no I don't really consider myself a wizard. -- Michael H. Warfield (The Mad Wizard) | gatech.edu!galbp!wittsend!mhw (404) 270-2123 / 270-2098 | mhw@wittsend.LBP.HARRIS.COM An optimist believes we live in the best of all possible worlds. A pessimist is sure of it!
madd@world.std.com (jim frost) (10/23/89)
In article <227@promark.UUCP> mark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) writes: |Wizard implies "knows all" [...] Actually the definition I'm most comfortable with is: "A Wizard is someone who can do something that you don't know how to do." I believe you will find that this is appropriate in most contexts. |4 They have a copy of either the BSD or System V "Implimentation of | the Unix operating system." |5 All the above books have pages that are starting to bio-degrade | from age. Given that the BSD book isn't very old, I kind of doubt it. Worn, maybe, but not degrading :-). jim frost software tool & die madd@std.com
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (10/23/89)
For what reason did the First Patriarch come from the west? -- Peter da Silva, *NIX support guy @ Ferranti International Controls Corporation. Biz: peter@ficc.uu.net, +1 713 274 5180. Fun: peter@sugar.hackercorp.com. `-_-' "I feared that the committee would decide to go with their previous 'U` decision unless I credibly pulled a full tantrum." -- dmr@alice.UUCP
drears@pica.army.mil (Dennis G. Rears (FSAC)) (10/23/89)
> From article <955@umb.umb.edu>, by campbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim Campbell): >> ie: NOVICE: Calls vi vye > I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. Do wizards even use vi? I thought they used emacs :-). Dennis
tvf@cci632.UUCP (Tom Frauenhofer) (10/23/89)
In article <1989Oct22.174927.3736@world.std.com> madd@world.UUCP (jim frost) writes: >In article <227@promark.UUCP> mark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) writes: >|Wizard implies "knows all" [...] >|4 They have a copy of either the BSD or System V "Implimentation of >| the Unix operating system." >|5 All the above books have pages that are starting to bio-degrade >| from age. >Given that the BSD book isn't very old, I kind of doubt it. Worn, >maybe, but not degrading :-). C'mon, folks! Everyone knows that a REAL WIZARD has the old Lions Version 6 Book. - Tom "Wish I had a Lions" Frauenhofer
merlyn@iwarp.intel.com (Randal Schwartz) (10/23/89)
In article <89Oct17.001354edt.3270@neat.cs.toronto.edu>, moraes@cs (Mark Moraes) writes: | gordon@prls.UUCP (Gordon Vickers) writes (from an old Paul Chisholm | posting to net.jokes, if I remember right): | | > GURU: | > ... | > - uses adb on the kernel while system is loaded | | Since it is now common practice for manufacturers to NOT ship adb with | their systems ("dbx does everything you need to, honest." Ha!), this | definition may need some revision :-) Oh, now come on. If a guru finds that adb is missing, he/she whips out a source tape of goodies from the last job, which just happens to include a hacked version of adb that prints out some of the kernel structures easily, loads it up, and compiles it, and sticks it in his/her own personal bin. No sweat. Just another UNIX hacker (may or may not be a guru... hard to tell...), -- /== Randal L. Schwartz, Stonehenge Consulting Services (503)777-0095 ====\ | on contract to Intel's iWarp project, Hillsboro, Oregon, USA, Sol III | | merlyn@iwarp.intel.com ...!uunet!iwarp.intel.com!merlyn | \== Cute Quote: "Welcome to Oregon... Home of the California Raisins!" ==/
gwyn@smoke.BRL.MIL (Doug Gwyn) (10/23/89)
In article <6631@ficc.uu.net> peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >For what reason did the First Patriarch come from the west? To listen to the sound of one hand clapping.
brtmac@hobbes.ksu.ksu.edu (Brett McCoy) (10/24/89)
In article <21251@adm.BRL.MIL> drears@pica.army.mil (Dennis G. Rears (FSAC)) writes: >> From article <955@umb.umb.edu>, by campbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim >Campbell): >>> ie: NOVICE: Calls vi vye > >> I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. > > Do wizards even use vi? I thought they used emacs :-). You are both wrong. Wizards do everything right the first time, hence the lack of need for any editor. They do all of their file creation with cat(1V). :-) :-) :-) -- Brett McCoy | God is real, unless declared integer brtmac@ksuvm.ksu.edu | bmc@phobos.cis.ksu.edu | If you don't get caught, brtmac@hobbes.ksu.ksu.edu | did you really do it?
trudel@topaz.rutgers.edu ( quit) (10/24/89)
> And no I don't really consider myself a wizard. >Michael H. Warfield (The Mad Wizard) I'm not a Wizard, but I play one on the Net...
nick@toro.UUCP (Nicholas Jacobs) (10/24/89)
In article <1989Oct22.174927.3736@world.std.com> madd@world.UUCP (jim frost) writes: >In article <227@promark.UUCP> mark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) writes: >|4 They have a copy of either the BSD or System V "Implimentation of >| the Unix operating system." >|5 All the above books have pages that are starting to bio-degrade >| from age. > >Given that the BSD book isn't very old, I kind of doubt it. Worn, >maybe, but not degrading :-). > >jim frost Actually, considering the wonderful paper :-) that they printed the BSD book on, I wouldn't be surprised if it was falling apart... But, I think that the operative point is that wizards don't consider themselves to be so. In fact, I would be surprised to hear one wizard to call another wizard one to their face. It just seems to me to be one of those terms that gets bantered around by people who seek to label everyone into neat categories. Nicholas Jacobs UUCP: ...!uunet!toro!nick Internet: toro!nick@uunet.uu.net AT&T: (212) 236-3230
mds@wang.UUCP (Marc San Soucie) (10/24/89)
So I'm sitting in section 38 of the Fenway Park bleachers watching Roger
Clemens mow down Milwaukee Brewers in 90 degree heat in a losing 4-2 cause
when from all around me there begins a hubbub which swells to a loud and
raucous antiphonal shouting - one crowd of drunken bleacha-bums bellowing
at another, "Vee-Eye!", "Veye!", "Vee-Eye!", "Veye!". The shouting turned
to yelling, the yelling to hurling of beer-cups, the hurling to throwing
of punches, and in due time the whole unsoundly lot of them were dragged
from the stands by the Fenway bleacher bouncers, who have little patience
for this sort of thing...
Marc San Soucie
Massachusetts
mds@wang.wang.commark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) (10/24/89)
In article <1989Oct22.174927.3736@world.std.com>, madd@world.std.com (jim frost) writes: > In article <227@promark.UUCP> mark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) writes: > |Wizard implies "knows all" [...] > > Actually the definition I'm most comfortable with is: > > "A Wizard is someone who can do something that you don't know how to do." > > I believe you will find that this is appropriate in most contexts. I don't know how to repair pipes, but I don't consider my plumber a wizard. I don't know how to drive a fork lift, but I don't consider our fork lift operator a wizard. I don't know how to drive a 5 speed, but I do not consider all those that can wizards. ... ... ... (For those fork lift operators out there that are wizards and are moonlighting as programmer wizards, I mean no disrespect). I guess "most" is a loose term. -- Adelphi University, Garden City, NY 11530 (516) 663-1170 Department of Mathematics and Computer Science markd@adelphi.UUCP or mark@promark.UUCP UUCP: uunet!mimsy!rutgers!columbia!adelphi!markd
joe@gryphon.COM (Joseph Francis) (10/24/89)
I, personally, vacillate between pronouncing 'vi' as the beginning of 'view' (can sound like vyeeeeh) with an occasional hard click at the end for the 'yuk' effect, and 'vi' as in 'novice' (really, now quite untypeable in sound, a definite potiential Heimlich candidate gurgle). How strangely appropriate the synonym (oops, 'homonym') 'vie' (rhymes with 'blygh') exists, along with 'vee-eye', though 'vee-eye' makes it sound both frivolous (remember how 'teco' was strangely onomatopoeic w.r.t the clattering escape keys: and its derivative rhumba 'tico-tico' (sic) immortalized by hordes of aging would-be musicians with hammond organs at country-fair beauty shows while the judges ponder the inevitable...) and strangely hardboiled, like j.d. or p.i. I digress: vi is, of course, invoked rather than pronounced (like comparing apples and oranges) but only by afficionados, the domain of invocational wizards. Entropy rears its head, however, and from the (larger) hell of dysphonious commands possible comes 'emacs' (pronounces 'M-acks', like the auntie em from 'The Wizard of Oz') gender neutral but available in 'shemacs' and 'hemacs' versions for M.O.T.A.S, being 'extensible' (visions of which apropos the sentence context I leave to the imagination of the reader). -- joe@gryphon ...!elroy!gryphon!joe but jojo to my beeeest frieeeends.
amos@taux01.UUCP (Amos Shapir) (10/24/89)
In article <227@promark.UUCP> mark@promark.UUCP (Mark J. DeFilippis) writes: >3 They all have at least one beat up copy of the C bible, possibly > hard cover, or if not, the front or back cover is gone. >4 They have a copy of either the BSD or System V "Implimentation of > the Unix operating system." >5 All the above books have pages that are starting to bio-degrade > from age. Well, gurus may have the books, wizards don't have to - they are mentioned in the references/index... >6 They have a copy of the SVID from AT&T if they work with SYSTEM V. >7 They all spell kernel as KERNEL, not KERNAL. They spell IMPLEMENTATION correctly. :-) -- Amos Shapir amos@taux01.nsc.com or amos@nsc.nsc.com National Semiconductor (Israel) P.O.B. 3007, Herzlia 46104, Israel Tel. +972 52 522261 TWX: 33691, fax: +972-52-558322 34 48 E / 32 10 N (My other cpu is a NS32532)
konczal@mail-gw.ncsl.nist.gov (Joe Konczal) (10/24/89)
Date: Mon, 23 Oct 89 9:57:30 EDT From: "Dennis G. Rears (FSAC)" <drears@pica.army.mil> > From article <955@umb.umb.edu>, by campbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim Campbell): >> ie: NOVICE: Calls vi vye > I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. Do wizards even use vi? I thought they used emacs :-). Dennis Of course wizzards use vi...they are often called upon to help people who haven't installed emacs on thier systems yet. And in answer to the "***WIZARD***": Guys haven't you got anything better to talk about, after all who really cares about, "How do you tell a wizard?", I don't. I get a little sick of reading these reams of garbage. Hold the flames. That depends... :-) A real wizard knows how to delete the mail he (or she) isn't interested in reading! Even most people who have never heard of Unix will not read reams of garbage that makes them sick if nobody is forcing them to. (I am holding the flames; this is just the smoke.) Joe Konczal
bph@buengc.BU.EDU (Blair P. Houghton) (10/25/89)
In article <11392@smoke.BRL.MIL> gwyn@brl.arpa (Doug Gwyn) writes: >In article <6631@ficc.uu.net> peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) writes: >>For what reason did the First Patriarch come from the west? > >To listen to the sound of one hand clapping. Ah, a loopback test. --Blair "Zen and the art of LAN design."
cliff@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Cliff Marcellus) (10/25/89)
In article <21251@adm.BRL.MIL>, drears@pica.army.mil (Dennis G. Rears (FSAC)) writes: > > Do wizards even use vi? I thought they used emacs :-). > ... this "wizard" does :-) I always perfered to edit "eye-to-vi" :-)) Cliff Cliff Marcellus UUCP : {any backbone}!calgary!ssg-vax-a!cliff Dept of Physics and Astronomy DOMAIN : cliff@ssg-vax-a.phys.UCalgary.CA The University of Calgary SPAN : CANCAL::CLIFF OPINIONS WITHIN ARE MY OWN AND DO NOT REFLECT THOSE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY
cliff@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Cliff Marcellus) (10/25/89)
In article <4282@deimos.cis.ksu.edu>, brtmac@hobbes.ksu.ksu.edu (Brett McCoy) writes: > > You are both wrong. Wizards do everything right the first time, hence the > lack of need for any editor. They do all of their file creation with cat(1V). > :-) :-) :-) > DARN! I guess this means I'm not a wizard... Gee. Did Dennis Ritchie simply do a : % cat > vmunix.c ??? :-) Cliff Marcellus UUCP : {any backbone}!calgary!ssg-vax-a!cliff Dept of Physics and Astronomy DOMAIN : cliff@ssg-vax-a.phys.UCalgary.CA The University of Calgary SPAN : CANCAL::CLIFF OPINIONS WITHIN ARE MY OWN AND DO NOT REFLECT THOSE OF THE UNIVERSITY OF CALGARY
kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu (Nancy's Fiance) (10/26/89)
I've always understood `vi' to be an abbreviation for `vile', so I pronounce it accordingly. . . Anyway, in article <1958@cs-spool.calgary.UUCP> cliff@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Cliff Marcellus) writes: >In article <4282@deimos.cis.ksu.edu>, brtmac@hobbes.ksu.ksu.edu > (Brett McCoy) writes: >> >> Wizards do everything right the first time, hence the lack of need for >> any editor. They do all of their file creation with cat(1V). > > Gee. Did Dennis Ritchie simply do a : > > % cat > vmunix.c Actually it was: % cat > vmunix.s kilroy@cs.umd.edu Darren F. Provine ...uunet!mimsy!kilroy "It will soon be illegal to deface the flag. Disgracing it is still okay." -- Dan Berger
mikes@rtech.UUCP (Mike Schilling(This sentence no verb.)) (10/27/89)
From the tone of most unix dicussions I've heard, the word should be priest (if not fakir :-) ).
dmuntz@sparky.eecs.umich.edu (Daniel A Muntz) (10/27/89)
In article <20408@mimsy.umd.edu> kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu.UUCP (Darren F. Provine) writes: <Anyway, in article <1958@cs-spool.calgary.UUCP> cliff@cpsc.ucalgary.ca < (Cliff Marcellus) writes: <>In article <4282@deimos.cis.ksu.edu>, brtmac@hobbes.ksu.ksu.edu <> (Brett McCoy) writes: <>> <>> Wizards do everything right the first time, hence the lack of need for <>> any editor. They do all of their file creation with cat(1V). <> <> Gee. Did Dennis Ritchie simply do a : <> <> % cat > vmunix.c < <Actually it was: < <% cat > vmunix.s < Actaully it was: # cat > vmunix -Dan Muntz
jdarcy@encore.UUCP (Jeff d'Arcy) (10/27/89)
cliff@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Cliff Marcellus): > Gee. Did Dennis Ritchie simply do a : > > % cat > vmunix.c kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu (Nancy's Fiance): > Actually it was: > > % cat > vmunix.s Nope. I don't think he was using csh. More likely would be: $ cat > vmunix.s Trivia question: what *did* the prompt look like on whichever system was used to develop the first UNIX? Also: who's Nancy? :-) Jeff d'Arcy OS/Network Software Engineer jdarcy@encore.com Encore has provided the medium, but the message remains my own
wayne@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Wayne Hathaway) (10/27/89)
Maybe it's time to paraphrase the old Buddha definition:
The difference between a Wizard and an ordinary user
is that one knows the difference and the other does not.
Wayne Hathaway
Ultra Network Technologies domain: wayne@Ultra.COM
101 Daggett Drive Internet: ultra!wayne@Ames.ARC.NASA.GOV
San Jose, CA 95134 uucp: ...!ames!ultra!wayne
408-922-0100
earlw@Apple.COM (Earl Wallace) (10/27/89)
In article <20408@mimsy.umd.edu> kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu.UUCP (Darren F. Provine) writes: >... >> Gee. Did Dennis Ritchie simply do a : >> >> % cat > vmunix.c > >Actually it was: > >% cat > vmunix.s >... I'm sure it must have been: $ cat > vmunix.o
scott@nastar.UUCP (Scott Barman) (10/27/89)
In article <20408@mimsy.umd.edu> kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu.UUCP (Darren F. Provine) writes: |Anyway, in article <1958@cs-spool.calgary.UUCP> cliff@cpsc.ucalgary.ca | (Cliff Marcellus) writes: |>In article <4282@deimos.cis.ksu.edu>, brtmac@hobbes.ksu.ksu.edu |> (Brett McCoy) writes: |>> |>> Wizards do everything right the first time, hence the lack of need for |>> any editor. They do all of their file creation with cat(1V). |> |> Gee. Did Dennis Ritchie simply do a : |> |> % cat > vmunix.c | |Actually it was: | |% cat > vmunix.s Actually, maybe Bill Joy did that since vmunix is BSD [caveat: was it vmunix under 32V?] If true, Ritchie would have done: $ cat > unix.s ^ Correct shell prompt! :-) -- scott barman emory!nastar!scott <-- please note new address (for those who like Internet addresses): scott%nastar.uucp@mathcs.emory.edu
stan@Solbourne.COM (Stan Hanks) (10/27/89)
In article <651@zip.eecs.umich.edu> dmuntz@sparky.eecs.umich.edu.UUCP (Daniel A Muntz) writes: >Actaully it was: > ># cat > vmunix Geeze, what a bunch of Berkeley-ized weenies. Try: # cat > unix (no vm in those days, remember? probably not....) Regards, -- Stanley P. Hanks Science Advisor Solbourne Computer, Inc. Phone: Corporate: (303) 772-3400 Houston: (713) 964-6705 E-mail: ...!{boulder,sun,uunet}!stan!stan stan@solbourne.com
collin@hpindda.HP.COM (Collin Park) (10/27/89)
Sorry, can't resist...
"Actually, it was
cat > vmunix.s"
Would a "REAL wizard" do
cat > vmunix
?kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu (Nancy's Sweetie) (10/28/89)
In article <10242@encore.Encore.COM> jdarcy@encore.UUCP (Jeff d'Arcy) writes: > > Also: who's Nancy? :-) [ Singsong voice: "Je-eff's mush-y Je-eff's mush-y!" ] Nancy's my fiancee, and she has pretty blonde hair, and we were in a big garden with pretty trees and shrubs and flowers and little birdies going `chirpy chirpy tweet tweet tweet' and there was a pretty blue sky with pouffy clouds and she proposed and I looked in her pretty sparkly eyes and said yes and now we're engaged. Wheeeeeeeeeeeee!!!!!!! kilroy@cs.umd.edu Darren F. Provine ...uunet!mimsy!kilroy "It looks to me like *Darren's* the one who's mushy!" -- Chris Torek
gs26@prism.gatech.EDU (Glenn R. Stone) (10/28/89)
A friend of mine offers the following definition: "After you've summoned your first daemon, you're qualified to be a wizard." Glenn R. Stone gs26@prism.gatech.edu, CCASTGS@GITNVE2.BITNET, ...!gatech!gitpyr!ccastgs Box 30372, Atlanta, GA 30332
ggw@wolves.uucp (Gregory G. Woodbury) (10/28/89)
In article <21251@adm.BRL.MIL> (Dennis G. Rears (FSAC)) writes: >> From article <955@umb.umb.edu>, by campbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim Campbell): >>> ie: NOVICE: Calls vi vye > >> I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. > > Do wizards even use vi? I thought they used emacs :-). Of course some wizards use vi! Those whom eschew the baroque verbosity of the wild variants of the one true UNIX appreciate the clean and simple style of vi (despite its origins ;-) Of course, for clean and simple, not much can beat TECO ;-) ;-) -- Gregory G. Woodbury Sysop/owner Wolves Den UNIX BBS, Durham NC UUCP: ...dukcds!wolves!ggw ...dukeac!wolves!ggw [use the maps!] Domain: ggw@cds.duke.edu ggw@ac.duke.edu ggw%wolves@ac.duke.edu Phone: +1 919 493 1998 (Home) +1 919 684 6126 (Work) [The line eater is a boojum snark! ] <standard disclaimers apply>
allbery@NCoast.ORG (Brandon S. Allbery) (10/29/89)
As quoted from <1958@cs-spool.calgary.UUCP> by cliff@cpsc.ucalgary.ca (Cliff Marcellus): +--------------- | In article <4282@deimos.cis.ksu.edu>, brtmac@hobbes.ksu.ksu.edu (Brett McCoy) writes: | > You are both wrong. Wizards do everything right the first time, hence the | > lack of need for any editor. They do all of their file creation with cat(1V). | > :-) :-) :-) | > | | DARN! I guess this means I'm not a wizard... | Gee. Did Dennis Ritchie simply do a : | | % cat > vmunix.c | | ??? :-) +--------------- Uh, confusion. Ken Thompson: $ cat > unix.c Keith Bostic(?): % cat > vmunix.c ;-) ;-) ;-) ++Brandon -- Brandon S. Allbery: allbery@NCoast.ORG, BALLBERY (MCI Mail), ALLBERY (Delphi) uunet!hal.cwru.edu!ncoast!allbery ncoast!allbery@hal.cwru.edu bsa@telotech.uucp *(comp.sources.misc mail to comp-sources-misc[-request]@backbone.site, please)* *Third party vote-collection service: send mail to allbery@uunet.uu.net (ONLY)* >>> Shall we try for comp.protocols.tcp-ip.eniac next, Richard? <<<
david@indetech.com (David Kuder) (10/29/89)
In article <21251@adm.BRL.MIL> drears@pica.army.mil (Dennis G. Rears (FSAC)) writes: >>> ie: NOVICE: Calls vi vye >> I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. > Do wizards even use vi? I thought they used emacs :-). Well, emacs users call vi vile -- David A. Kuder Comp.lang.perl, the time is now! 415 438-2003 david@indetech.com {uunet,sun,sharkey,pacbell}!indetech!david
bobmon@iuvax.cs.indiana.edu (RAMontante) (10/30/89)
A wizard is someone who solves the problem that has you stumped. A guru is someone who helps you solve it. A user is someone who gives you the problem.
davidsen@crdos1.crd.ge.COM (Wm E Davidsen Jr) (10/30/89)
In article <1989Oct27.220632.5531@wolves.uucp>, ggw@wolves.uucp (Gregory G. Woodbury) writes: | Of course some wizards use vi! Those whom eschew the baroque | verbosity of the wild variants of the one true UNIX appreciate the clean | and simple style of vi (despite its origins ;-) Of course, for clean and | simple, not much can beat TECO ;-) ;-) Most of the people I think are even low grade wizards know vi, emacs, and ed, because you never know what machine you have to fix next. Hell, I bet a real wizard know edlin, sos, and teco, just to help the heathens convert. -- bill davidsen (davidsen@crdos1.crd.GE.COM -or- uunet!crdgw1!crdos1!davidsen) "The world is filled with fools. They blindly follow their so-called 'reason' in the face of the church and common sense. Any fool can see that the world is flat!" - anon
rns@se-sd.NCR.COM (Rick Schubert) (10/31/89)
In article <10242@encore.Encore.COM> jdarcy@encore.UUCP (Jeff d'Arcy) writes: >kilroy@mimsy.umd.edu (Nancy's Fiance): >> Actually it was: >> % cat > vmunix.s >Nope. I don't think he was using csh. More likely would be: >$ cat > vmunix.s If I remember correctly, the "%" prompt preceded the "$" prompt: it was the default prompt for the Mashey shell, which was replaced by the Bourne shell. I was never "root" back then, but I suspect that the default "root" prompt was also "#". So any prompts in this line of discussion should probably be "#". But the real question is: does a real wizard really need a prompt? -- Rick Schubert (rns@se-sd.sandiego.NCR.COM)
szirin@cbnewsm.ATT.COM (seth.zirin) (10/31/89)
A true wizard knows that sleep() takes two arguments and would never invoke it except at base level. A true wizard knows when and why PCATCH is needed and is capable of using it. A true wizard knows which subroutines return twice and which never return. Many wizards still dislike the Berzerk strains of the kernel that once permitted such vulgarities as Control-Zeeing a mkdir. A genuine wizard knows why... Seth Zirin
sanders@sanders.austin.ibm.com (Tony Sanders) (10/31/89)
In article <21251@adm.BRL.MIL> drears@pica.army.mil (Dennis G. Rears (FSAC)) writes: >> From article <955@umb.umb.edu>, by campbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim >Campbell): >>> ie: NOVICE: Calls vi vye > >> I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. > > Do wizards even use vi? I thought they used emacs :-). > >Dennis From "An Introduction to Display Editing with Vi" out of the UNIX User's Manual (Supplementary Documents) I quote (without permission): 1. Getting Started This document provides a quick introduction to vi. (Pronounced vee-eye.) Sorry if this has already been posted. I think I recall my id posting it to some other news group while I was asleep(8). I think I recall seeing one wizard on a dark night with the lights out using vi. Maybe you were there? -- sanders A wizard is someone who knows enough not to think he knows everything.
jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens) (11/10/89)
In article <739@ontek.UUCP> mikey@ontek.UUCP (Michael E. Lee) writes: ># make Nancy >make: Fatal error: Don't know how to make target `Nancy' % make love Make: Don't know how to make love. Stop. % Got a light? No match. % rm God rm: God nonexistent Jonathan Kamens USnail: MIT Project Athena 11 Ashford Terrace jik@Athena.MIT.EDU Allston, MA 02134 Office: 617-253-8495 Home: 617-782-0710
exspes@gdr.bath.ac.uk (P E Smee) (11/13/89)
In article <15770@bloom-beacon.MIT.EDU> jik@athena.mit.edu (Jonathan I. Kamens) writes: >% make love >Make: Don't know how to make love. Stop. Ah. Under OS/8 (on the PDP-8's, remember them?) 'make' was the command used to invoke the editor (teco) when making a new file. The programmer had decided it would be humourous to catch that, so when you typed: make love it said not war and exited. Since the 8 was basically a 4K (12-bit word) machine, I used to resent the lost space. -- Paul Smee | JANET: Smee@uk.ac.bristol Computer Centre | BITNET: Smee%uk.ac.bristol@ukacrl.bitnet University of Bristol | Internet: Smee%uk.ac.bristol@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk (Phone: +44 272 303132) | UUCP: ...!uunet!ukc!gdr.bath.ac.uk!exspes
mfuller@prandtl.nas.nasa.gov (Mike J. Fuller) (11/16/89)
In article <4417@condict.cs.vu.nl> condict@cs.vu.nl (Michael Condict) writes: >In article <1989Oct31.133417.2409@lsuc.on.ca> jim@lsuc.UUCP (Jim Mercer) writes: >>> Actually, real programmers don't bother storing the >>> code. Why do you think I linked /dev/tty to /dev/tty.c >>> on this system several years ago? Handy for those simple >>> C tests. >> seriously? . . . >I'm afraid this is an example of cleverness run amok. Simpler and better >would be the following "compile and execute" filter, which I've just >put in my bin directory as the ce command: . . . How about a little program consisting of: #include "/dev/tty" Or is that abusing the rules a little too much :-) /-----------------------------------------------------------------------------\ | Mike J. Fuller |Internet: mikef@sarah.lerc.nasa.gov |You'd be paranoid, | |----------------| mikef@zippysun.math.uakron.edu|too, if everyone | |/\/\/\/\/\/\/\/\|Bitnet: r3mjf1@akronvm |was out to get you!| \-----------------------------------------------------------------------------/
ask@cbnews.ATT.COM (Arthur S. Kamlet) (12/05/89)
In article <917@uakari.primate.wisc.edu> bin@primate.wisc.edu writes: >From article <955@umb.umb.edu>, by campbell@umb.umb.edu (Jim Campbell): >> Some years ago, I saw a description of how to tell the >> level of the individual with respect ot their UNIX knowledge. >> ie: NOVICE: >> Calls vi vye >> etc > >I have *never* heard *anyone* call "vi" vee-eye. Including wizards. > >Paul DuBois >dubois@primate.wisc.edu I have a copy of a paper written by Bill Joy (Revised for Versions 3.5/2.13) by Mark Horton, dated 9-16-80: "This document provides a quick introduction to vi. (Pronounced vee-eye.)" ---- This is a quote from the monthly "Most frequently asked questions" article for December: < [Last changed: $Date: 89/12/01 14:50:10 $ by $Author: sahayman $] < This article contains the answers to some Frequently Asked Questions < often seen in comp.unix.questions and comp.unix.wizards. Please don't < ask these questions again, they've been answered plenty of times < already - and please don't flame someone just because they may not have < read this particular posting. Thank you. < This article includes answers to: < ... < 19) How do I pronounce "vi" , or "!", or "/*", or ...? You can start a very long and pointless discussion by wondering about this topic on the net. Some people say "vye", some say "vee-eye" (the vi manual suggests this) and some Roman numerologists say "six". How you pronounce "vi" has nothing to do with whether or not you are a true Unix wizard. -- Art Kamlet a_s_kamlet@att.com AT&T Bell Laboratories, Columbus