haugj@pigs.UUCP (Joe Bob Willie) (08/16/88)
In article <6031@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> larryg@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Larry Gilbert) writes: >Joe Bob Willie writes, >> there are archive sites which already contain these things, please >> find a local archive. there is no need to continiously repost zoo >> every month or so. > >I agree. But there are those of us who can't ftp archives. > >Does anyone have an idea for a compromise? Maybe post stuff like that every >THREE months? There exists a large number of publically accessible archive systems. I run one (rpp386); I use one down the street, killer; and then there is uunet, oncoast, osu-cis and others. These systems are all reachable with UUCP. The cost of transporting the UNIX(R) ARC(TM) utility is approximately $27,645, assuming 132K compressed, 1200 baud communications and $9.00 per hour long distance and a distribution of 9,000 machines. [ These figures being derived, roughly, from administrivia posted regularly in news.lists. ] The annual cost of posting this four times a year is then over $100,000. For one of you to retrieve the source from a public access system, the cost is $3.07, using the same numbers. For the source to be mailed over the net, it would cost about 6 times that. Assuming 2400 baud communication will obviously reduce this cost in half. For that same $100,000, which you expect the net to spend as a collective body, between 30 and 50 THOUSAND users could retrieve that source code directly from archival sites. I'm sorry, but if you aren't willing to spend three bucks to pick up ARC or ZOO, why should Rahul bother posting it every three or four months? Why should anyone do anything if YOU aren't willing to spend three stinking dollars? -- jfh@rpp386.uucp (The Beach Bum at The Big "D" Home for Wayward Hackers) "Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity" -- Hanlon's Razor
wsd@whuts.UUCP (DINSMORE) (08/16/88)
In article <236@pigs.UUCP> haugj@pigs.UUCP (Joe Bob Willie) writes: >In article <6031@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> larryg@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Larry Gilbert) writes: # >>Joe Bob Willie writes, # >>> there are archive sites which already contain these things, please # >>> find a local archive. there is no need to continiously repost zoo # >>> every month or so. # >> # >>I agree. But there are those of us who can't ftp archives. # > # >There exists a large number of publically accessible archive systems. # >I run one (rpp386); I use one down the street, killer; and then there is # >uunet, oncoast, osu-cis and others. These systems are all reachable # >with UUCP. # > # >I'm sorry, but if you aren't willing to spend three bucks to pick up # >ARC or ZOO, why should Rahul bother posting it every three or four # >months? Why should anyone do anything if YOU aren't willing to spend # >three stinking dollars? # >-- # > jfh@rpp386.uucp (The Beach Bum at The Big "D" Home for Wayward Hackers) # > "Never attribute to malice what is adequately explained by stupidity" # > -- Hanlon's Razor # # I have seen alot of boasting about this rpp386 site lately and it's really sad you think you're doing everyone a favor! The users in our group can't modify the L.sys files you talk about. What we have is what we work with, period. I have used some sites where all you need to do is send a mail message with a subject of SERVER and a body with the commands and files being requested. Much easier, no problems. As far as I can tell the rpp386 site is of no use to us. If I'm wrong, by all means correct me. It just irks me that some people assume the world knows everything they do, and if they don't they have to submit to flames from someone who refuses to get off their high horse and give a little help. CAN THE ATTITUDE GENTLEMEN AND HELP THESE PEOPLE! 'Nuff said. -- | Wayne S. Dinsmore Make it in Massachusetts, | AT&T Bell Labs (ihnp4,att,moss)!whuts!wsd Spend it in New Hampshire. | 20 Shattuck Road Room 4A-118 | Andover,Mass 01810
mhm@cbnews.ATT.COM (Michael H. Moran) (08/16/88)
[many citations of previous articles all arguing about access to source] >>I agree. But there are those of us who can't ftp archives. >> >>Does anyone have an idea for a compromise? Maybe post stuff like that every >>THREE months? > >There exists a large number of publically accessible archive systems ....reachable with UUCP. [Calculations of approximate cost of moving source, determined from all th administative trivia posted monthly] >For one of you to retrieve the source from a public access system, >the cost is $3.07, using the same numbers. > >I'm sorry, but if you aren't willing to spend three bucks to pick up >ARC or ZOO, why should Rahul bother posting it every three or four >months? Why should anyone do anything if YOU aren't willing to spend >three stinking dollars? >-- > jfh@rpp386.uucp (The Beach Bum at The Big "D" Home for Wayward Hackers) I, personally, would welcome the ability to FTP, uucp or even drive to a local archive site to get copies of source I want, but I have three problems. First, I don't have a personal machine. Second, for security reasons, none of the machines I deal with at here at work allow FTP to any machine not on one of the inhouse LANs. And third, modems are not allowed to hang off of the same set of machines. Thus, the only way to get source is to catch it as it appears in comp.sources.* or to have it mailed to me. In essence, I don't have the option of spending "three stinking dollars". Mike Moran Contracted to AT&T-BL UUCP: att!cbosgd!mhm Columbus, Ohio mhm@cbosgd.att.com
karl@triceratops.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) (08/16/88)
wsd@whuts.UUCP writes:
[...a lot of complaining...]
I have seen alot of boasting about this rpp386 site lately and it's
really sad you think you're doing everyone a favor!
I don't do *everyone* a favor. I have, however, done a favor to
something like 3000 sites. That's quite a favor, I think.
The users in our group can't modify the L.sys files you talk about.
That's unfortunate. Then you need to see about getting your
administrator to do it for you. He certainly has the power to edit
L.sys, so he can arrange for you to be able to get at things held in
source archives.
If his opinion of the value of what would be obtained is not high
enough to warrant access, that is his right/privilege/responsibility,
to see that your machine is used in appropriate ways. The definition
of `appropriate' changes from one machine to another.
What we have is what we work with, period.
That includes your administrator. Work with your adminstrator to get
permission to access one of the UUCPable archives.
I have used some sites where all you need to do is send a
mail message with a subject of SERVER and a body with the commands and
files being requested. Much easier, no problems.
No problems for whom? For you? Or for the N sites through which the
source-holding mail will pass on the way back to you? How many other
people should pay for the sources you want to cross the links to reach
you?
UUCPable archives are Philosophically Correct in that you, the user
wanting access to sources, are compelled to spend Your Money getting
what you want, and thus you are not freeloading off the rest of the
network.
If your adminstrator is unwilling to help you in this regard, that is
his privilege, to avoid spending $$$ that he may think aren't
(shouldn't be) available for such things. That's a judgment call on
the part of whoever runs any given machine.
As far as I can tell
the rpp386 site is of no use to us. If I'm wrong, by all means correct me.
You're wrong if you have not tried to get access to the UUCPable
archive sites with your administrator's consent. If you have asked
and been denied by your administrator, then you may be out of options.
Find someone willing to dump it to a tape and snail-mail it to you.
Lots of people will do such things; I have, on occasion, but I tend to
avoid it these days.
"Never underestimate the bandwidth of a station wagon full of
magtapes." --Source unknown
It just irks me that some people assume the world knows everything they
do, and if they don't they have to submit to flames from someone who
refuses to get off their high horse and give a little help.
It bothers me a lot that there is this basic assumption that everyone
else has to help you, when those of us running these archive sites
have already done quite a heck a lot for you.
CAN THE ATTITUDE GENTLEMEN AND HELP THESE PEOPLE!
Read that back to yourself slowly a few times (improved punctuation
would have helped), and then help yourself. Start by walking into
your administrator's office and describing your problem.
--Karl
Admin of archive site osu-cissimcha@humming.UUCP (Simcha Lerner) (08/16/88)
In article <236@pigs.UUCP> haugj@pigs.UUCP (Joe Bob Willie) writes: >In article <6031@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> larryg@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Larry Gilbert) writes: >>Joe Bob Willie writes, >>> there are archive sites which already contain these things, please >>> find a local archive. there is no need to continiously repost zoo >>> every month or so. >> >>I agree. But there are those of us who can't ftp archives. >> >>Does anyone have an idea for a compromise? Maybe post stuff like that every >>THREE months? > >There exists a large number of publically accessible archive systems. >I run one (rpp386); I use one down the street, killer; and then there is >uunet, oncoast, osu-cis and others. These systems are all reachable >with UUCP. >(stuff cut) >For that same $100,000, which you expect the net to spend as a collective >body, between 30 and 50 THOUSAND users could retrieve that source code >directly from archival sites. > >I'm sorry, but if you aren't willing to spend three bucks to pick up >ARC or ZOO, why should Rahul bother posting it every three or four >months? Why should anyone do anything if YOU aren't willing to spend >three stinking dollars? >-- > jfh@rpp386.uucp (The Beach Bum at The Big "D" Home for Wayward Hackers) I agree that reposting stuff to the whole net is not cost effective, and that those who are able to connect to an archive site should pick stuff up directly. Alas, not all of us are on one-user machines, with full control over the system, as jfh@rpp386 is. Some of us are not allowed to add systems to the L.sys file, and even have to live with a corporate policy that forbids adding links. For those of us stuck in this situation, it would be nice if someone would volunteer to mail stuff on an e-mailed request basis. (Dare I ask the moderator to take on yet another burden?) Just remember, not all of us have the same facilities and/or flexibility as you may have. Simcha Lerner harvard!humming!simcha ^^^^^^^ All opinions contained herein are put in the public domain, since they are not that of my employer.
johnson@c10sd1.StPaul.NCR.COM (Wayne D. T. Johnson) (08/17/88)
In article <236@pigs.UUCP> you write: >There exists a large number of publically accessible archive systems. >I run one (rpp386); I use one down the street, killer; and then there is >uunet, oncoast, osu-cis and others. These systems are all reachable >with UUCP. > OK, how about forming a list of these systems and all the information on how to access them via UUCP. NO don't tell me the information is available by FTP from such-and-such a site, I don't have FTP access. If I had I would be doing it by FTP. I have been trying to get access to the server at OK state for some time and all I seem to get is the phone number. I also need the UUCP user name and password (if any). A UUCP L.sys (or Systems for us HDB users) line would be even better, save us several phone calls to get it right. If there is no list, I would ask anyone who has a working connection to one of these, (please, no rumors about someone who knows someone, who knows...) please EMAIL the pertinate info and I will compile and post these. -- Wayne Johnson (Voice) 612-638-7665 NCR Comten, Inc. (E-MAIL) W.Johnson@StPaul.NCR.COM or Roseville MN 55113 johnson@c10sd1.StPaul.NCR.COM These opinions (or spelling) do not necessarily reflect those of NCR Comten. -- Wayne Johnson (Voice) 612-638-7665 NCR Comten, Inc. (E-MAIL) W.Johnson@StPaul.NCR.COM or Roseville MN 55113 johnson@c10sd1.StPaul.NCR.COM These opinions (or spelling) do not necessarily reflect those of NCR Comten.
davidsen@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr) (08/17/88)
In article <4663@whuts.UUCP> wsd@whuts.UUCP (54299-DINSMORE,W.S.) writes: | I have seen alot of boasting about this rpp386 site lately and it's | really sad you think you're doing everyone a favor! The users in our group Sure looks like a favor to me. He's spending his time and money to make information available for the cost of a phone call. He keeps it relatively up-to-date and has a nice listing you can get so you don't have the cost of poking around. | can't modify the L.sys files you talk about. What we have is what we work Perhaps you could take the uupc program, put it on a PC, and call as intended on your nickel instead of the net's. Nah, you're going to say that you don't have a PC, or a modem, or you didn't save the software, or you don't have the nickel. | with, period. I have used some sites where all you need to do is send a | mail message with a subject of SERVER and a body with the commands and | files being requested. Much easier, no problems. As far as I can tell And it's someone else's phone bill, best of all. | the rpp386 site is of no use to us. If I'm wrong, by all means correct me. | It just irks me that some people assume the world knows everything they | do, and if they don't they have to submit to flames from someone who | refuses to get off their high horse and give a little help. | | CAN THE ATTITUDE GENTLEMEN AND HELP THESE PEOPLE! There's an attitude problem here, all right. You seem to think that free service is your just due, and that people should add software for a server and run up their phone bill for your benefit. I try to help people who say things about "I don't know how, can someone assist me?", but someone who bitches about not getting enough free service is not going to get any help from me. | 'Nuff said. true. I have a lot more personal insults and comments, but I'm mailing them. This is just the tip of the iceburg for my opinion on your posting! -- bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa) {uunet | philabs | seismo}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
karl@triceratops.cis.ohio-state.edu (Karl Kleinpaste) (08/18/88)
johnson@c10sd1.stpaul.ncr.com writes:
OK, how about forming a list of [archives sites] and all the information on
how to access them via UUCP.
NO don't tell me the information is available by FTP from such-and-such a
site, I don't have FTP access. If I had I would be doing it by FTP.
Such information is usually available within the Usenet in one of the
comp.* groups. For osu-cis, I post our instructions there every 6 or
8 weeks; the current copy (out of date, but that's why the
instructions tell you how to get updated instructions) is due to
expire 23 Aug. I'll repost around then. Find article
<17591@tut.cis.ohio-state.edu> in comp.sources.d.
rpp386 has its info posted there as well. One site (can't remember
the name just now, sorry) typically puts them in comp.sources.wanted.
I have been trying to get access to the server at OK state for some time and
all I seem to get is the phone number. I also need the UUCP user name and
password (if any). A UUCP L.sys (or Systems for us HDB users) line would be
even better, save us several phone calls to get it right.
I suggest a note to postmaster@okstate (or whatever the proper
hostname is) for a pointer to the person responsible for maintaining
such information.
All the archive sites that I can think of right now, including my
own, give full details of L.sys/Systems file requirements. We're
usually perfectly willing to get the advertised mechanisms changed if
necessary, too - one of the ways into my site is through a Micom port
switch, whose behavior is under the control of another organization,
and has been known to change without our knowledge.
If there is no list, I would ask anyone who has a working connection to
one of these,
please EMAIL the pertinate info and I will compile and post these.
For the most part, it's already posted. Look around.
--Karl
Admin of archive site osu-cisleonard@bucket.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (08/19/88)
In article <236@pigs.UUCP> haugj@pigs.UUCP (Joe Bob Willie) writes: <In article <6031@orstcs.CS.ORST.EDU> larryg@jacobs.CS.ORST.EDU (Larry Gilbert) writes: <There exists a large number of publically accessible archive systems. <I run one (rpp386); I use one down the street, killer; and then there is <uunet, oncoast, osu-cis and others. These systems are all reachable <with UUCP. < <The cost of transporting the UNIX(R) ARC(TM) utility is approximately <$27,645, assuming 132K compressed, 1200 baud communications and $9.00 <per hour long distance and a distribution of 9,000 machines. [ These <figures being derived, roughly, from administrivia posted regularly <in news.lists. ] The annual cost of posting this four times a year <is then over $100,000. < <For one of you to retrieve the source from a public access system, <the cost is $3.07, using the same numbers. For the source to be mailed <over the net, it would cost about 6 times that. Assuming 2400 baud <communication will obviously reduce this cost in half. < <I'm sorry, but if you aren't willing to spend three bucks to pick up <ARC or ZOO, why should Rahul bother posting it every three or four <months? Why should anyone do anything if YOU aren't willing to spend <three stinking dollars? (I already *have* ZOO200.ARC, but the arguments apply...) Ok, how am *I* supposed to get this from your system? *I* can't uucp it as *I* am running MS-DOS. I could try to get bucket to uucp it for me, but then I'm asking *someone else* to pay the 3 bucks... The problem is that you are assuming that all of us who want XX are usenet sites. Many of us *aren't*. Even if I *could* run unix on my PC clone, I wouldn't. I've got to much MS-DOS stuff that I am responsible for supporting. (When I can afford a Sun 386i, things will change! But for now...) News would be nice, and with 80 meg of HD I might even have room for it... but I don't have it, so I pay to use several local usenet sites. Yes, *pay*. By the way, I (and no doubt many others) use dail-in lines for net access, therefore my online time is limited (and rightfully so!) by the site adminstrator. So for *me*, it is a better use of resources to download the uuencoded files and handle them on *my* machine rather than tie up a dial-in while editing, uudecoding and un-arcing on the unix system. *I* don't claim that this is best for *everyone*. But there are people for whom this *is* best, and they might even be a majority of the users of comp.binaries.ibm.pc... As far as what I *can* do, I've got more *usable* power on my 10 Mhz XT than on this unix box. From your previous postings, your case is the opposiite. So the best solution for you is *not* even a *good* solution for me. (ps. just what *is* your archive site's phone number, assuming that there is a way for a pc to get anything from it?) -- Leonard Erickson ...!tektronix!reed!percival!bucket!leonard CIS: [70465,203] "I used to be a hacker. Now I'm a 'microcomputer specialist'. You know... I'd rather be a hacker."
mike@pcsbst.UUCP (Mike Schroeder) (08/19/88)
Hi there! ok, everyone (well, nearly ;-) is talking about uucp archive sites. So please enliten me (a not_to_clever net-user): 1. where in germany/europe are uucp archives (i assume unido has one, but who knows?) 2. once i know where it is, how do i go about obtaining stuff? (under the premise that my sysadmin agrees; i'll have to speak to myself about that ;-) thanx Mike Schroeder (cochise!mike@pcsbst.UUCP) PCS GmbH; Pfaelzer-Wald-Str. 36; D-8000 Muenchen 90; W. Germany UUCP: ...uunet!unido!pcsbst!msc PS: anyone seen my disclaimer wandering around ?-)
ldh@hcx1.SSD.HARRIS.COM (08/20/88)
I am getting into this late in the game ... so please bear with me. I would like to be able to "anonymous ftp", but it appears as though we can not get out from our site. Personally I do not care if I have to pay $5 for phone charges, so long as I can get what I need to. My "only" problems (that I know of so far) are: 1) Where do I get UUCP software for my PC to be able to communicate? Can I use other comm software to accomplish the same thing? (I use procomm+). 2) Where do I call (multiple choices would be nice ... in case one is busy of if I have problems)? 3) What account & passwd can I use? ... I am not the sysadmin on this system, it is not clear that sysadmin would want to part with any such information in any case. Thanks! Leo Hinds UUCP: uunet!hcx1!hardy!ldh USPS: Harris CSD, ms #156, 2101 W. Cypress Creek Rd., Ft Lauderdale FL 33309 AT&T: (305) 973-5229
chip@vector.UUCP (Chip Rosenthal) (08/20/88)
In article <478@c10sd1.StPaul.NCR.COM> johnson@c10sd1.StPaul.NCR.COM (Wayne D. T. Johnson) writes: >In article <236@pigs.UUCP> you write: >>There exists a large number of publically accessible archive systems. >OK, how about forming a list of these systems and all the information on >how to access them via UUCP. A good resource is Wayne Ross' (wayne@warble.uucp) "nixpub" listing. This listing contains information on public access systems, and many of them offer source archives. This list is posted regularly to the "pubnet.nixpub" newsgroup. You might want to check if any of your news neighbors carry this newsgroup. -- Chip Rosenthal chip@vector.UUCP | I've been a wizard since my childhood. Dallas Semiconductor 214-450-0486 | And I've earned some respect for my art.
heiby@falkor.UUCP (Ron Heiby) (08/23/88)
54299-DINSMORE,W.S. (wsd@whuts.UUCP) writes: > The users in our group > can't modify the L.sys files you talk about. What we have is what we work > with, period. If you don't have access to your L.sys files, then you are not administering your systems. In that case, you probably are paying someone else (perhaps a "comp center") to do so for you. You should request your administrator make the necessary modifications to allow archive access. If your company does not believe that this is an appropriate activity for its computers, then you should not endanger your job by trying to bypass your company's policy. > I have used some sites where all you need to do is send a > mail message with a subject of SERVER and a body with the commands and > files being requested. Much easier, no problems. Fine, send a very short mail message. No one really minds passing a few dozen bytes. But, what happens then? Maybe a couple of megabytes pass through my modems and disks, tying up my limited phone lines and costing me actual $$ to *my* company's long distance carrier. That's *RUDE*. > As far as I can tell > the rpp386 site is of no use to us. If I'm wrong, by all means correct me. The site is of use if the management in charge of running your computer system is willing to allow you to use it. That's an internal decision within your company. > It just irks me that some people assume the world knows everything they > do, and if they don't they have to submit to flames from someone who > refuses to get off their high horse and give a little help. It just irks me that some people assume the world owes them its resources in passing (at least) hundreds of kilobytes of information that they are unwilling (as an organization) to pay for themselves, and if they see someone object, they whine publicly about how useless the services that require some expense are. > AT&T Bell Labs I thought this organization still had some modems and phone lines. :-) -- Ron Heiby, heiby@mcdchg.UUCP Moderator: comp.newprod & comp.unix "Failure is one of the basic Freedoms!" The Doctor (in Robots of Death)