brian@ucsd.EDU (Brian Kantor) (07/15/89)
Has Siggraph abandoned the use of the &*%^^&*%^&* card readers for admission to portions of the conference? The person I spoke to at the conference management place didn't know. - Brian
chuck@melmac.harris-atd.com (Chuck Musciano) (07/17/89)
In article <1840@ucsd.EDU> brian@ucsd.EDU (Brian Kantor) writes: >Has Siggraph abandoned the use of the &*%^^&*%^&* card readers for >admission to portions of the conference? The person I spoke to at the >conference management place didn't know. > - Brian I don't know, I kind of liked the card readers in Atlanta. That way, I could check to see if my name had changed since I last entered a tutorial or the exhibition floor :-) Seriously, I think the readers are a good idea for enforcing SIGGRAPH security. I assumed they were sort of experimental in Atlanta. The read error rate was too high, and I never saw anyone turned away when their card failed. I also saw more than one lost card pinned to the message board with the pin through the magnetic strip... If the error rate was reduced, I think this is a good way to count and control access to events. I would also take the keyboards off the readers, since I was always inclined to try to type on the readers, which seemed to displease the gate watchers. Chuck Musciano ARPA : chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131 Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 727-{5118,5227,4004} Oh yeah, laugh now! But when the millions start pouring in, I'll be the one at Burger King, sucking down Whoppers at my own private table! --Al Bundy
herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) (07/18/89)
In article <1840@ucsd.EDU>, brian@ucsd.EDU (Brian Kantor) writes: > Has Siggraph abandoned the use of the &*%^^&*%^&* card readers for > admission to portions of the conference? The person I spoke to at the > conference management place didn't know. > - Brian Although it was not my decision to use the mag stripe badges and card readers, I was a strong supporter of the decision, and in hindsight, would still support it. Atlanta was a perfect conference, in terms of logistics and size of the conference, to experiment with the system and learn what it takes to make the system work (or not) at a conference held in say, Boston. This is not the forum to discuss the (de-)merits of the mag-stripe system (I intend to submit a piece on the '88 adventures to comp.risks one of these days), but I will overgeneralize and say that the experiment was tried for two reasons: 1) Primarily to collect data that will aid in planning of future conferences, and will provide knowledge that will help control expenses (and thereby help limit fee increases!); 2) Secondarily to keep people out of events they haven't paid for. There is a significant minority of attendees who consider it their mission to crash events. Big deal? Consider that the good seat the crasher takes at a course or the film show, and the food the crasher eats at receptions, may be your own! There is real money involved, too; as crashers are controlled so are expenses. We gained valuable information in '88 that will help ensure that a mag stripe system can be successfully used in Boston and future conferences. As to the $64k question, will the mag stripe system be used this year: due to reason (2) above I say, come to the conference and find out! Brian Herzog herzog@sun.com "Badge? I don't need no stinking badge!"
rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) (07/18/89)
The siggraph badge system is a joke. They give you a badge that's valid for technical sessions and then they check the magstripe on the back to make sure that its valid for techincal sessions. There were always lines to get in the sessions. It was extremely annoying if you wandered in and out several times (things do run in parallel you know) The seating at the filmshow rationalizaion is insane. The badge readers weren't used for the filmshow! The badge readers should be discontinued for the simple reason they they are rude and an annoyance. (If you have a siggraph tech sessions badge, then the only reason to use the readers is if you think its forged. fat chance. If the reader rejects the badge, they let you in anyway) If I pay several hundered dollars to attend a "professional" conference I dont want to be treated like a gate crasher. SIGGRAPH treated me like a theif. I resent it. I've attended the last 11 SIGGRAPHs. I'll be in Boston. If they are still using those insipid badge readers, I'll presume that the program conference doesn't give a damn about the attendees anymore and stop coming. This really strikes me as an organization getting big and successful and arrogant. I have header no adequate justification for it. The arguments are always "its not so bad" or "why does it bother you". Never why its important. SIGGRAPH is sticking an inventory control label on their attendees. Its rude and insulting. Everyone attending siggraph this year make sure to take along a nice strong magnet. Wipe out the mag strip on the badge. Share the magnet with your friends. The other option is to be treated like a commodity. --rick
herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) (07/18/89)
In article <60881@uunet.UU.NET>, rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: > The siggraph badge system is a joke. They give you a badge that's valid > for technical sessions and then they check the magstripe on the back to > make sure that its valid for techincal sessions. > Rather than being a joke, it was a prudent move to provide backup for an experimental system. The whole point was that it was an experiment to test feasibility; if and when the system is permanently adopted, the redundant info (inserts, tickets, etc.) will be removed. > There were always lines to get in the sessions. It was extremely > annoying if you wandered in and out several times (things do run in > parallel you know) > Yes, this was a big problem; and when we could not find a workable solution we did the reasonable thing and abandoned the readers in favor of the backup inserts. > The seating at the filmshow rationalizaion is insane. The badge readers > weren't used for the filmshow! > We deliberately and prudently chose to use the readers only at sufficent events to perform a meaningful experiment. In a permanent system, the readers will be used at all events. > The badge readers should be discontinued for the simple reason they > they are rude and an annoyance. (If you have a siggraph tech sessions > badge, then the only reason to use the readers is if you think its > forged. fat chance. As a matter of fact, forgery attempts *have* been made. Do you really think the experiment was tried just to annoy you? > If the reader rejects the badge, they let you in anyway) Only because there were recognized problems with the experimental system. > If I pay several hundered dollars to attend a "professional" conference > I dont want to be treated like a gate crasher. SIGGRAPH treated me > like a theif. I resent it. > Do you also resent the fact that every major credit card and ATM card you own also has a mag stripe? Do you feel your bank treats you like a thief? Do you resent the fact that many people must wear a badge at work? Or use a keycard to get into their building? Do you resent the fact that you must wear a badge at the conference at all? > [...] This really strikes me as an organization getting big and successful > and arrogant. I have header no adequate justification for it. The arguments > are always "its not so bad" or "why does it bother you". Never why its > important. > I don't know of anyone in conference management who used those arguments. If you're really interested, send email and I'll return a long, long email listing all the reasons why it's important, the main reason being to keep registration fees as low as possible (yes, I can back that up). > SIGGRAPH is sticking an inventory control label on their attendees. > Its rude and insulting. > > Everyone attending siggraph this year make sure to take along a nice > strong magnet. Wipe out the mag strip on the badge. Share the magnet with > your friends. The other option is to be treated like a commodity. > > --rick Sorry you feel this way. The whole point is to minimize lines, and to limit expenses in some areas so that money can be spent where it will best help to prevent treating you like a commodity. Yes, there were problems that must be eliminated before any such system can become permanent. That's why experiments are performed. For what it's worth, I spent many hours talking with people who were upset about the system, and they fell pretty evenly into three camps: folks who, like you, pointed out and criticized system failures; folks who, like you, resented the alleged "big brother" aspects of the system; and folks whose gate-crashing plans were no longer even worth attempting! Brian Herzog herzog@sun.com "Badge? I don't need no stinking badge!" (the above comments, of course, do not represent Sun)
rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) (07/18/89)
Once again, the question is dodged with "trust me I know what I'm doing" arguments. Simple question: Given that I have a neato, keeno, badge with the current conference logo, etc embossed on it and that it is only given to people who have paid the technical conference fees; why do I ALSO have to have the stupid mag stripe read I find it totally unbelievable that even a tiny number of badges are forged. Got a simple answer? Good enough to subject 25,000 people to unnecessary harrassment? By the way, your arguments about badges at work support MY point, not yours. Not one of the security badges I have ever had has had a mag stripe on the back. They all rely on the badges as the verification. My drivers license doesnt have a stripe, etc. The whole point is that you have made it difficult to attend the conference. There is no good reason for this. Atlanta was a failed experiment. I do not deny the experiment. I deny the claim that the experiment was successful.
brian@ucsd.EDU (Brian Kantor) (07/18/89)
I have been told that there won't be badge readers at Boston. I'm glad of that. However, I'm disappointed to be told by Mr. Herzog that they will be used in the future. This is expressed in such a way as brook no argument; I must assume that the decision has been made and is irrevocable. Is it that Siggraph has already bought the damn things? The practical problem I have with the badge readers is that they didn't READ badges - they had to be FED the damn badge. That meant that at any point - even the exhibits where anyone who had a badge at all was to be admitted - you had to stop, take the little card out of your holder, hand it to the attendant who shoved it through the reader for you (no self-service allowed here!), wait while the brainless little PC widget thought about it and painted the pretty screen, wait until the attendant's mind figured out what was printed and handed you back the badge, and then you had to wedge the badge back into the holder and refasten whatever gimmick you had in place to keep it from falling out, for woe betide you if you lost your badge. Finally, you could procede in. And that was if the reader was working. The offensive problem is being lumped with the criminals - because a dozen or two people might be crashing a session or two, thousands of other people are subjected to suspicion and inconvenience. (Mr. Herzog, do not come to my place of employment - you will not like it. We do not wear badges. We do not even require employee ID cards here. That is one of reasons I work here. We have about 14,000 employees, by the way.) However, on a more practical note, surely it can't be beyond the genius of the Siggraph management people to come up with a badge that can't easily be counterfeited (i.e., on your portable PC in your hotel room), can be optically scanned by that most wonderful of instruments, - a HUMAN [a guard, who presumably has to be there anyway, unless you're also planning to install card-activated turnstiles!], and which doesn't have to be taken out of its already-insecure-enough holder to be processed. I have seen badges with non-removable colour tape stripes at various paranoid government installations, presumably to indicate areas of permitted access; surely some variation of this could work at Siggraph - and a guard [who will be there anyway!] can easily look for the right coloured symbol as people stream past. Last year I published these concerns in a note in this newsgroup just after Atlanta; later, excerpts of that note were published in the Siggraph quarterly. I'd have been happy to discuss the practical and social aspects of badge readers with anyone who was interested in finding out how people felt about them - but no one contacted me. It's terrible that one bad aspect of a conference can leave such sour memories of the experience - because I really enjoy and learn from every one of the Siggraph conferences I go to. Sigh. - Brian
spl@mcnc.org (Steve Lamont) (07/18/89)
In article <60881@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: >Everyone attending siggraph this year make sure to take along a nice >strong magnet. Wipe out the mag strip on the badge. Share the magnet with >your friends. The other option is to be treated like a commodity. > >--rick At the risk of being thought a throwback to the sixties, I say "RIGHT ON!!" Where is Abbe Hoffman now that we need him? Steal This Badge :-) -- spl Steve Lamont, sciViGuy EMail: spl@ncsc.org North Carolina Supercomputing Center Phone: (919) 248-1120 Box 12732/RTP, NC 27709
spl@mcnc.org (Steve Lamont) (07/18/89)
In article <60901@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: >Once again, the question is dodged with "trust me I know what I'm doing" >arguments. > >Simple question: > > Given that I have a neato, keeno, badge with the current > conference logo, etc embossed on it and that it is only > given to people who have paid the technical conference > fees; why do I ALSO have to have the stupid mag stripe read > > I find it totally unbelievable that even a tiny number > of badges are forged. > >Got a simple answer? > >Good enough to subject 25,000 people to unnecessary harrassment? Sure. It's called *marketing*. The information garnered from the badges is *salable* to vendors, market researchers, the NSA (want to join the NSA? Just pick up any telephone and dial any number. Ask for Fort Meade :-) ). Does this come as any surprise from an organization that has become so commercialized and gee-whiz Hollywood as SIGGRAPH has become? -- spl Steve Lamont, sciViGuy EMail: spl@ncsc.org North Carolina Supercomputing Center Phone: (919) 248-1120 Box 12732/RTP, NC 27709
mherman@alias.UUCP (Michael Herman) (07/18/89)
I don't believe the card readers were being used to *control* access to different events. One story I heard was that the conference wanted to see if there were any patterns with respect to the types of events that people attended. For example, when do people go to the art show? Of those that went through the equipment exhibition, what other events did they attend (as opposed to "register for")?
chuck@melmac.harris-atd.com (Chuck Musciano) (07/18/89)
In article <60901@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: > Given that I have a neato, keeno, badge with the current > conference logo, etc embossed on it and that it is only > given to people who have paid the technical conference > fees; why do I ALSO have to have the stupid mag stripe read > > I find it totally unbelievable that even a tiny number > of badges are forged. Badges also allow admittance to tutorials, which cost lots of money. Personally, I'm glad they keep crashers out of sessions in which they don't belong. Attendance is a priviledge, not a right. In previous years, anyone with colored construction paper and a dot matrix printer could forge a badge which allowed admittance to most anything. Forgery is much tougher with a badge reader. >Got a simple answer? > >Good enough to subject 25,000 people to unnecessary harrassment? I didn't consider it harrassment. I assumed that, in addition to preventing gate crashing, good data was being collected to help make future SIGGRAPHs better. It was worth the small inconvenience, in my opinion. >By the way, your arguments about badges at work support MY point, >not yours. Not one of the security badges I have ever had >has had a mag stripe on the back. They all rely on the badges as the >verification. My drivers license doesnt have a stripe, etc. At Harris, all badges are striped. All admittance is done with computer-controlled gates driven by card readers. Failure rates are very low (I only know of two incidents where readers failed, after being soaked by a typical blinding Florida rainstorm). I was quite skeptical of the system when it was first installed; I now think it is a great improvement over having guards watch everyone as they go in and out. In addition, it is now possible to track the movement of visitors throughout the campus, including controlled access to high security areas. >The whole point is that you have made it difficult to attend >the conference. There is no good reason for this. Atlanta was >a failed experiment. I do not deny the experiment. I deny the >claim that the experiment was successful. I think it was a very successful experiment. It did what any experiment should do: provided significant amounts of data about a hypothesis, so that future experiments and hypotheses can be formulated. Regarding a previous comment about vandalizing your badge to foil the system: aside from the obvious childishness of such an action, and the attendant delay you will incur for yourself and those behind you in line, it may be harder than you think to damage a badge stripe. I don't know how SIGGRAPH does it, but those stripes are recorded using some sort of "deep" recorder, which places data at a level below that which would be defaced (or forged) by a simple magnet. (I base all this on some data from a friend who helped build ATM machines). Chuck Musciano ARPA : chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131 Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 727-{5118,5227,4004} Oh yeah, laugh now! But when the millions start pouring in, I'll be the one at Burger King, sucking down Whoppers at my own private table! --Al Bundy
ksbooth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Kelly Booth) (07/18/89)
In article <4896@alvin.mcnc.org> spl@mcnc.org.UUCP (Steve Lamont) writes: >In article <60901@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: > >Sure. It's called *marketing*. The information garnered from the badges is >*salable* to vendors, market researchers, the NSA (want to join the NSA? Just >pick up any telephone and dial any number. Ask for Fort Meade :-) ). Does >this come as any surprise from an organization that has become so >commercialized and gee-whiz Hollywood as SIGGRAPH has become? There are only two ways that anyone outside of ACM gets the information from your registration form (which is where it is keyed in, the badges are just copies of some of the information). (a) You give them your badge. (b) You check off the box on the registration form that says it is OK for SIGGRAPH to release the information.
dsill@ark1 (Dave Sill) (07/18/89)
In article <60901@uunet.UU.NET>, rick@uunet (Rick Adams) writes: >By the way, your arguments about badges at work support MY point, >not yours. Not one of the security badges I have ever had >has had a mag stripe on the back. They all rely on the badges as the >verification. My drivers license doesnt have a stripe, etc. Well, *my* badge has a magnetic strip on the back. I work in a "secured" building. During normal hours, the badges are used to automatically log entries and exits, even though there are access control clerks at the doors. The badges speed up the entry/exit process and leave the clerks free to doodle, err, hand out badges to visitors and make sure employees use their badges. Outside of normal hours, the badges actually unlock the door; there are no clerks. Most people wear their badges on a necklace, which looks dorky but is convenient. But the thought of using a mag. badge at a conference *does* seem to be a little severe.
spl@mcnc.org (Steve Lamont) (07/19/89)
In article <10698@watcgl.waterloo.edu> ksbooth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Kelly Booth) writes: >In article <4896@alvin.mcnc.org> spl@mcnc.org.UUCP (Steve Lamont) writes: >>In article <60901@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: >> >>Sure. It's called *marketing*. The information garnered from the badges is >>*salable* to vendors, market researchers, the NSA (want to join the NSA? Just > >There are only two ways that anyone outside of ACM gets the information from >your registration form (which is where it is keyed in, the badges are just >copies of some of the information). > >(a) You give them your badge. > >(b) You check off the box on the registration form that says it is OK for >SIGGRAPH to release the information. It isn't the information on the badge that is of interest.... it is what sessions that I may attend or not attend that may be of interest to the marketroids -- whether my name is attached to that information or not. Are you telling me that SIGGRAPH *isn't* planning on using all of that juicy marketing and demographic information? With or without my permission? -- spl Steve Lamont, sciViGuy EMail: spl@ncsc.org North Carolina Supercomputing Center Phone: (919) 248-1120 Box 12732/RTP, NC 27709
herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) (07/19/89)
> > It isn't the information on the badge that is of interest.... it is what > sessions that I may attend or not attend that may be of interest to the > marketroids -- whether my name is attached to that information or not. Are > you telling me that SIGGRAPH *isn't* planning on using all of that juicy > marketing and demographic information? With or without my permission? That's right. Unless (as previously mentioned) you give permission, your name is not released outside ACM, and even then, only your name, address and (at your option) phone number are released. The funny thing is that it never even occurred to any of us involved in the experiment that the information be used in the way you mention, until attendees assumed that was how it was being used, and complained about it. The data we *were* interested in collecting were aggregate only, and for internal use only to help plan future conferences that best meet attendee needs. An example is that we wanted to collect aggregate stats on how many paper/panel sessions people attended, over how many days (of the three days the sessions are held), in consideration of whether we would better serve attendees by offering single-day options in addition to the single three-day registration (this is non-trivial - every reg option is really six options, allowing for early/late & member/non-member/student combinations). The reality is that there *is* potential for abuse, and you have every right to demand concrete evidence (beyond my altruistic assurances :-) that the system has adequate safeguards against abuse. But it's not as if no information is available without a mag stripe, just less information. Have you not been concerned that that more limited info from the badge alone was being abused? I would be sincerely interested in comments that argue that a badge with a mag stripe is inherently more invasive/offensive and a badge with inserts, or inherently more invasive/offensive than a credit card or ATM card. Please reply directly; I'll be happy to summarize to the net. Since the cat has been let out of the bag: it's true that there is no mag stripe on this year's badges. To those who made rather personal remarks in response to my defense of last year's experiment, it may interest you to know that it was my decision to not continue the experiment this year! The decision was made on the basis of the results from last year, the logistics of this year's conference, and not in the least on the basis of the comments and criticisms of attendees. Whether the experiment is continued at future conferences will be up to others to decide; I'm confident attendee input will be given great consideration then, too. I'd like to point out that SIGGRAPH is not operated or supported by, or beholden to the NSA, as someone (frivolously?) implied. SIGGRAPH is its membership, no more and no less; the conference is run by volunteers from the computer graphics community. To anyone who would condemn the organization or conference as uncaring, arrogant, or too big to listen to the comments and criticisms of its membership or attendees, I say it's just not so. Many improvements in conference operations have been made as a direct result of attendee input. But don't take my word for it. I invite any and all skeptics to spend a day with me in the registration area in Boston, and see for yourself the efforts we make to treat 30,000 attendees individually, efficiently and courteously. You may come away with a whole new perspective. Comments, criticisms and suggestions are welcome, as always. Brian Herzog SIGGRAPH '89 registration chair herzog@sun.com "Badge? I don't need no stinking badge!" - Cheech & Chong (The above comments, of course, do not represent Sun.)
rfrench@athena.mit.edu (Robert S. French) (07/19/89)
In article <60881@uunet.UU.NET> rick@uunet.UU.NET (Rick Adams) writes: >Everyone attending siggraph this year make sure to take along a nice >strong magnet. Wipe out the mag strip on the badge. Share the magnet with >your friends. The other option is to be treated like a commodity. > >--rick Actually, the way the badges were designed at the Atlanta conference, the magnetic stripe was right next to the little metal thing that you stick to your shirt. After a few hours of walking around, many people's stripes got holes rubbed in them from the metal contact, making them unusable. This may be one of the reasons that people's badges failed so frequently. Rob
nick@sunpix.UUCP ( Sun Visualization Products) (07/19/89)
Oh come on, folks. You probably think Woodstock was part of a conspiracy by the Portable Toilet Marketing Association of America. There are a lot of people who volunteer a lot of their time to organize the SIGGRAPH conferences. I've met many of them and without exception they are all working to put on the best conference possible - and they have succeeded amazingly well over the last 15 years. They are NOT, repeat NOT, agents of some evil organization dedicated to enslaving people via marketing demographics or whatever. So they tried an idea and it didn't work out so well - BIG DEAL. Enjoy yourself in Boston. Benefit from the work all those people have put into SIGGRAPH. Have a good time. Don't sweat the small stuff. You want to change something - go ahead and volunteer to work on future SIGGRAPHs. The more the merrier. I realize all this sounds incredibly corny and naive -- but mostly, it works. SIGGRAPH is alive and well and one helluva good time and I, for one, say thanks a whole lot to the people who make it that way. Nick England (nengland@sun.com) sometimes on the technical program committee sometimes the hardware session chair sometimes the volume imaging BOF "organizer" always having fun at SIGGRAPH
cab@cbnewsh.ATT.COM (CAB) (07/21/89)
In light of the fervent drive by one too many organizations to collect and quantify information about me, my behavior, my purchases, and such; and the attendant assurances that such information will be used for my own good; I find the following comments an ironic expression of the motivations involved in collecting this information: [..portions of text deleted for brevity..] In article <116290@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>, herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) writes: > > > The reality is that there *is* potential for abuse, and you have every > right to demand concrete evidence (beyond my altruistic assurances :-) > that the system has adequate safeguards against abuse.... [..munch..] > ....in response to my defense of last year's experiment, it may > interest you to know that it was my decision to not continue the > experiment this year! The decision was made on the basis of the results > from last year, the logistics of this year's conference, and NOT IN THE > LEAST ON THE BASIS OF THE COMMENTS AND CRITICISMS OF ATTENDEES*. Whether > the experiment is continued at future conferences will be up to others > to decide; I'm confident attendee input will be given great consideration > then, too. *emphasis mine. [..munch..] > .....SIGGRAPH IS ITS MEMBERSHIP.... to anyone who would condemn the > organization or conference as UNCARING, ARROGANT, OR TOO BIG TO LISTEN > TO THE COMMENTS AND CRITICISMS OF ITS MEMBERSHIP OR ATTENDEES, I SAY IT'S > JUST NOT SO... As a member of the ACM, I am not comfortable with the fact that to avail myself of its functions, I have to INVOLUNTARILY surrender more information than I might like. If the organization can not appreciate that, and does not consider that in policy making decisions, then it is a shortcoming in the organization, and not in the membership. -- -CAB- _____/ _ || _\___ lNYCl_ ______ __|) Standard disclaimer. == (0) (0)
herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) (07/22/89)
In article <2481@cbnewsh.ATT.COM>, cab@cbnewsh.ATT.COM (CAB) writes: > > In light of the fervent drive by one too many organizations to collect > and quantify information about me, my behavior, my purchases, and such; > and the attendant assurances that such information will be used for my > own good; I find the following comments an ironic expression of the > motivations involved in collecting this information: > > [..portions of text deleted for brevity..] > In article <116290@sun.Eng.Sun.COM>, herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) writes: {...} > As a member of the ACM, I am not comfortable with the fact that to avail > myself of its functions, I have to INVOLUNTARILY surrender more information > than I might like. If the organization can not appreciate that, and > does not consider that in policy making decisions, then it is a shortcoming > in the organization, and not in the membership. Among the text you "deleted for brevity" was the (repeated!) statement that you aren't forced to involuntarily surrender anything. If you choose that your name, address and number not be released, then they are not released, in conformance with U.S. Postal Service regulations. Aggregate data are of course used internally to monitor how well we are serving ourselves as an organization, and to look for evidence of ways that we can better serve ourselves. I can imagine if the stated attitude was that we shouldn't pay attention to conference registration patterns and trends: the memebership would *really* start screaming about arrogance and complacency! As far as analyzing your purchases goes, I've heard an awful lot of criticism on-site suggesting we do more analysis, for example, to ensure that mugs don't sell out on Tuesday. You think such an effort would be terrible. Others think it essential. Fine, there's disagreement. But it seems to me your gripe is with your fellow members, not some alleged "fervent" organization that does not appreciate or respect your right to privacy. Also, if you think that it's ironic for me to note the legitimate reasons to collect data in one paragraph, and to recognize that there are risks which require safegaurds in another paragraph, that's fine, too. But I don't consider that ironic, I consider it being a responsible volunteer in (humble ;-) service to my fellow members. Brian Herzog herzog@sun.com "Badge? I don't need no stinking badge!" - Cheech & Chong The above comments are my own and do not represent Sun.
peter@ficc.uu.net (Peter da Silva) (07/22/89)
Perhaps it's time for a comp.org.siggraph, to get the organisational stuff out of comp.graphics. There are more important issues here, like the most efficient way to copy memory on an IBM-PC :-> :-P. -- Peter da Silva, Xenix Support, Ferranti International Controls Corporation. Business: peter@ficc.uu.net, +1 713 274 5180. | "A char, a short int, and Personal: peter@sugar.hackercorp.com. `-_-' | an int bit-field were walking Quote: Have you hugged your wolf today? 'U` | through the forest..."
sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) (07/25/89)
<4900@alvin.mcnc.org> <116290@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> Sender: Reply-To: sparks@corpane.UUCP (John Sparks) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Corpane Industries, Inc. Keywords: [underlines ^^^ are mine - John Sparks] In article <116290@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) writes: > The decision was made on the basis of the results >from last year, the logistics of this year's conference, and not in the ^^^^^^^^^^ >least on the basis of the comments and criticisms of attendees. Whether ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >the experiment is continued at future conferences will be up to others >to decide; I'm confident attendee input will be given great consideration ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >then, too. ^^^^^^^^^^^ >I'd like to point out that SIGGRAPH is not operated or supported by, or >beholden to the NSA, as someone (frivolously?) implied. SIGGRAPH is its ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >membership, no more and no less; the conference is run by volunteers from ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > To anyone who would condemn the >organization or conference as uncaring, arrogant, or too big to listen >to the comments and criticisms of its membership or attendees, I say it's >just not so. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Geeez! But you just said at first that the decision was NOT based on anything anyone in attendence had to say. So many contradictions in one posting! Say what you mean and mean what you say. -- John Sparks | {rutgers|uunet}!ukma!corpane!sparks | D.I.S.K. 24hrs 1200bps ||||||||||||||| sparks@corpane.UUCP | 502/968-5401 thru -5406 Help fight continental drift.