shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu (08/25/89)
I have some peeves with some minor points of the (generally excellent)
SIGGRAPH conferences. They follow in random order. Am I being unreasonable?
1. The reception costs are bundled with the technical and course
registration fees. This way people who are already having their way
paid can get the receptions covered too. Those paying their own way
are forced to pay for possibly unwanted services.
2. In my experience, The course meals are consistently abominable. This too
should be unbundled. If we must pay for lunch, I have a cheap
alternative that would be better than anything I've been offered: Have
buffet tables with loaves of bread and jars of peanut butter. Give each
course attendant a hershey bar for dessert. This would cost about a buck
per person, and would certainly be no worse than the status quo.
3. The courses too often include material being presented verbatim from the
technical session. This is a waste of time and money for the course
attendants. How about having half day courses? I'd
say most of the courses I've taken have a half day of 'non-filler'.
I'd much rather take four of these than two full day courses, though
it could lead to an organizational nightmare.
4. The conference proceedings has had a fairly constant number of papers
and pages for all the years I've seen ('78-'89). Is graphics
really not growing? SIGGRAPH attendance says otherwise. Why not have
parallel conference sessions? If cost is the problem why not break the
proceedings into volumes and unbundle their cost as well?
5. How about REAL poster sessions, like many conferences have? This would
help combat the trend away from technical interaction the conference
is now experiencing.
6. Does the tee shirt have to be ugly as sin?
7. Do we really have to wait in line for the film show? Why can't they
just open the autitorium 2 hours early?
On the good side the are several improvements under way: the film show is
getting better and better, survey and short papers are being accepted (short
as of ninety), and the AV support amazingly continues to get better.
Peter Shirley
shirley@cs.uiuc.edu sarrel@sioux.cis.ohio-state.edu (Marc Sarrel) (08/25/89)
In article <4400038@m.cs.uiuc.edu> shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes:
7. Do we really have to wait in line for the film show? Why can't they
just open the autitorium 2 hours early?
I agree that the line for getting into the film show was abominable.
I saw the late show on Tuesday, so obviously they couldn't let us in
early because the first show was going on. Also, I think that they
closed down the Auditorium between the last technical session and the
film show because that's when the AV crew gets to eat dinner. I know,
they could have _one_ security guard watch the stuff. However, the AV
people may be working for a subcontractor who doesn't trust anyone
else but their own employees (I don't blame them with that setup). I
just don't know.
--marc
-=-
"Master, why is the letter 'i' the symbol for current?" "Because there is
no letter 'i' in the word 'current'." "Master, why do we use the letter
'j' for sqrt(-1)?" "Because we use the letter 'i' for current." Whereupon
the Master struck the Disciple, and the Disciple became enlightened.spl@mcnc.org (Steve Lamont) (08/25/89)
In article <4400038@m.cs.uiuc.edu> shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >I have some peeves with some minor points of the (generally excellent) >SIGGRAPH conferences. They follow in random order. Am I being unreasonable? > > [comments about reception bundling and course luncheon "quality" elided] > >3. The courses too often include material being presented verbatim from the > technical session. This is a waste of time and money for the course > attendants. How about having half day courses? I'd > say most of the courses I've taken have a half day of 'non-filler'. > I'd much rather take four of these than two full day courses, though > it could lead to an organizational nightmare. Actually, my complaint is that many of the courses are verbatim repetitions of many of the prior year's papers. Frequently one begins to feel that one has been trapped in a time loop -- you hear the same talk several years in a row. As far as half day courses go, I think I'd rather have a full day of *new* material (of course, that's subjective -- what's new to me may be old hat to you -- however, I'd at least hope to see some new viewgraphs/slides). >4. The conference proceedings has had a fairly constant number of papers > and pages for all the years I've seen ('78-'89). Is graphics > really not growing? SIGGRAPH attendance says otherwise. Why not have > parallel conference sessions? If cost is the problem why not break the > proceedings into volumes and unbundle their cost as well? Please, NO! It is bad enough having to choose between panels and technical sessions. I have attended a number of conferences that have parallel sessions, as you suggest, and I have found it quite distracting to have people constantly leaving and entering because they want to hear paper X in session 1A and paper Y in session 1B. Now, if SIGGRAPH wanted to add another DAY or two to the technical sessions (making the conference a full week)... they might have to eliminate the tutorials to do so or compress them into one day, but it is a thought. >5. How about REAL poster sessions, like many conferences have? This would > help combat the trend away from technical interaction the conference > is now experiencing. BRAVO! Excellent suggestion. I heartily concur! Let's turn SIGGRAPH back into a *scientific* conference, rather than the tawdry trade exhibition it is turning into. On that subject, I guess that there is no possiblility of separating the trade show aspect of SIGGRAPH from the scientific conference aspect. I don't know how much money SIGGRAPH makes off the trade show part (I expect that it is considerable), but I am getting the feeling that this segment of the conference is beginning to overwhelm the actual technical part and that the conference is becoming more NCGA-like (please do not take this as a slight against NCGA -- SIGGRAPH and NCGA are different organizations and serve different purposes). Am I alone in this perception? Personally, my favorite day of the conference is Friday, since all of the three piece suits have packed up their Guccis and headed for the great sales meeting in the sky, and just us technoweenies are left to commune around the bit bucket. :-) >6. Does the tee shirt have to be ugly as sin? :-( ... and I wore my SIGGRAPH polo shirt today, too :-). >7. Do we really have to wait in line for the film show? Why can't they > just open the autitorium 2 hours early? There are probably security reasons for that. My complaint about the film show is that it has become such a big bloody deal. I suppose that there is no way of reversing the trend, but it just seems to me that it was much more *informal* in the past... people went to it when they wanted, rather than when they had tickets. Yes, I *do* understand the problems associated with dealing with *that* many people and the ill feeling that might be generated by turning people away when the auditorium fills up. I wish there were a better way :-(. >On the good side the are several improvements under way: the film show is >getting better and better, survey and short papers are being accepted (short >as of ninety), and the AV support amazingly continues to get better. Actually, this year I thought that the AV support was terrible. In at least two of the technical sessions there were long pauses while the AV people dealt with slide problems that, in one case at least, could have been easily preventable. Having slide projectors that could be remotely controlled to go in reverse, as well as forward, would have helped tremendously. I also understand from a collegue who exhibited in the art show that there were tremendous hassles with technical support in setup and preparation. There was also a case of dueling volume controls between two of the art show exhibitors that could have been avoided had someone in the art show committee not nearly juxtaposed two pieces which both required amplified sound. A final comment. I realize that hind sight is 20-20 and that the committee does the best that it can. It is perhaps remarkable that there as few screwups as there apparently are and that the program comes off as well as it does. My compliments to the committee and, no, I am not a candidate for office :-). -- spl Steve Lamont, sciViGuy EMail: spl@ncsc.org North Carolina Supercomputing Center Phone: (919) 248-1120 Box 12732/RTP, NC 27709
chuck@melmac.harris-atd.com (Chuck Musciano) (08/25/89)
In article <4400038@m.cs.uiuc.edu> shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >2. In my experience, The course meals are consistently abominable. This too > should be unbundled. If we must pay for lunch, I have a cheap > alternative that would be better than anything I've been offered: Have > buffet tables with loaves of bread and jars of peanut butter. Give each > course attendant a hershey bar for dessert. This would cost about a buck > per person, and would certainly be no worse than the status quo. I thought the meals were pretty good. On Monday, they served gazpacho and turkey salad croissants. On Tuesday, we had some excellent clam chowder and cold cuts. I consider both far superior to peanut butter. In general, all the meals I've had at SIGGRAPH have been good, with the exception of the cold peach soup in Atlanta. >3. The courses too often include material being presented verbatim from the > technical session. This is a waste of time and money for the course > attendants. How about having half day courses? I'd > say most of the courses I've taken have a half day of 'non-filler'. > I'd much rather take four of these than two full day courses, though > it could lead to an organizational nightmare. I'd like to see half day courses, too, but not for this reason. I'd just like to get as much >6. Does the tee shirt have to be ugly as sin? Oh, it wasn't that bad... >7. Do we really have to wait in line for the film show? Why can't they > just open the autitorium 2 hours early? Because other things are going on in there, and I imagine they want to clean it and give the AV crew a break for a while. In the beginning you asked if are being too picky. Yes. Chuck Musciano ARPA : chuck@trantor.harris-atd.com Harris Corporation Usenet: ...!uunet!x102a!trantor!chuck PO Box 37, MS 3A/1912 AT&T : (407) 727-6131 Melbourne, FL 32902 FAX : (407) 727-{5118,5227,4004} Gee, Beaver, everything that's fun can get you in trouble. Haven't you learned that yet? --Gilbert
herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) (08/26/89)
In article <4400038@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > I have some peeves with some minor points of the (generally excellent) > SIGGRAPH conferences. They follow in random order. Am I being unreasonable? > Since you state them to be minor points, no. :-) The responses below are based on experience close to the action, but are my personal opinion only. > 1. The reception costs are bundled with the technical and course > registration fees. This way people who are already having their way > paid can get the receptions covered too. Those paying their own way > are forced to pay for possibly unwanted services. > It would be wonderful if SIGGRAPH could fine-tune each person's registration to provide (and allow admission to) only those session and events in which s/he wishes to participate. SIGGRAPH "unbundles" as much as it practically can, as much or more so (I believe) than other conferences of comparable size, and certainly more than small conferences, which are usually all-or-nothing affairs. At the other end of the spectrum are those who would feel they were being nickle-and-dimed to death if they had to pay for every little thing. And others who would object because their companies would not reimburse them for the "extra" activities. > 2. In my experience, The course meals are consistently abominable. This too > should be unbundled. [...] > Sorry you were disappointed. Most comments this year were to the effect that '89 had the best course lunches in a long time. Course lunches are a compromise between limited hotel/convention center menus and limited budget. In response to past complaints, a great deal of attention is now given to course lunch menus, and the majority of comments this year indicate that the effort has been worthwhile. > 3. The courses too often include material being presented verbatim from the > technical session. This is a waste of time and money for the course > attendants. How about having half day courses? I'd > say most of the courses I've taken have a half day of 'non-filler'. > I'd much rather take four of these than two full day courses, though > it could lead to an organizational nightmare. > You answered your own question. This option is reviewed by most, if not every, conference committee, and the '90 courses chair has expressed interest. I happen to be one of the most vocal critics of this idea, and I'm softening, so who knows? (I'm just glad I won't be doing registration the year it happens! :-) > 4. The conference proceedings has had a fairly constant number of papers > and pages for all the years I've seen ('78-'89). Is graphics > really not growing? SIGGRAPH attendance says otherwise. Why not have > parallel conference sessions? If cost is the problem why not break the > proceedings into volumes and unbundle their cost as well? > Cost of the sessions or the proceedings is not really the issue. As other responses to this message have already noted, the problem is forcing people to choose between parallel sessions. SIGGRAPH already has parallel paper and panel sessions, and the last couple of conferences have experimented with a few triple sessions in parallel. Attendees don't like it. BTW, SIGGRAPH attendance cwappears to be stabilizing. SIGGRAPH '87 and '89 (conferences held on a coast tend to be "really big" as opposed to "big") were comparable in size, as were SIGGRAPH '86 and '88 (and probably '90). > 5. How about REAL poster sessions, like many conferences have? [...] > I will pass your suggestion on to the appropriate '90 committee members. > 6. Does the tee shirt have to be ugly as sin? > I personally did not care for this year's tee shirt either, yet it was essentially sold out by Monday. Many people loved it. Same for the mug. Short of turning out so many variations that the conference turns into a merchandise mart, every year is going to see some people who don't care for that conference's souvenir items. > 7. Do we really have to wait in line for the film show? Why can't they > just open the autitorium 2 hours early? > The following is a paraphrased (by me) response from Sally Rosenthal, the '89 computer graphics theater chair: The doors are opened as early as possible, which typically is a half hour before the show. There are several reasons why the doors can't open earlier. The same room is used for technical sessions during the day, and work must be done to change over for the show (for example, projectors that are tuned for the flesh tones of talking heads must be retuned for the show). Running the show is not a trivial effort; it must be rehearsed. The A/V crew has been working all day and needs a dinner break. And finally, security is a concern. It's the old story of a few people ruining things for everyone else: in past years there have been problems with people going into the A/V "kitchen" and tweaking dials, disturbing equipment, etc. No amount of security can prevent this if people get in early enough. I would also like to note that considerable effort is made to ensure that only as many tickets are sold as there are good seats, so if one doesn't want to stand in line, all one has to do is arrive five minutes before showtime and stroll right in. A general comment: many people involved with putting together the SIGGRAPH conference read this forum, and value the opinions expressed here. I do encourage those who have specific comments, criticisms and suggestions to also send them to siggraph@watcgl.waterloo.edu which will help ensure that the information is also passed on to those who may not read it here. Brian Herzog herzog@sun.com
3ksnn64@pur-ee.UUCP (Joe Cychosz) (08/26/89)
In article <4400038@m.cs.uiuc.edu> shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >6. Does the tee shirt have to be ugly as sin? I like the shirt this year. It's a lot better than last year when some bozo decide to not have T-shirts in Atlanta. > >7. Do we really have to wait in line for the film show? Why can't they > just open the autitorium 2 hours early? Actually, I thought the lines went fairly well compared to previous years where I actually had to wait more than 2 hours. They had more-smaller showings this year. In the past they would have some- thing like 3-4 showings. I got in line about 1 hr. before the show and was fairly close to the front of the line.
lmeyer@well.UUCP (lhary meyer) (08/27/89)
Why not run the film show CONTINUOUSLY through 3 days or so. Museums do shows this way. After manning a booth 8-10 hours I'm too damn tired to sit htru the show. You could use a smaller theater that way. I know it would be hard on the show people....but thats show biz.
herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) (08/28/89)
In article <12691@pur-ee.UUCP>, 3ksnn64@pur-ee.UUCP (Joe Cychosz) writes: > In article <4400038@m.cs.uiuc.edu> shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > > > >6. Does the tee shirt have to be ugly as sin? > I like the shirt this year. It's a lot better than last year when > some bozo decide to not have T-shirts in Atlanta. I'm the one who decided not to have tee shirts in Atlanta. I was merchandise chair that year. An unscientific poll the year before indicated that people had drawers full of tee shirts and wanted something different for a change, so we sold sweatshirts in Atlanta (yeah, I know - "sweatshirts in Atlanta in August?" - but these are souvenirs, remember?). I actually wanted to do polo shirts, but that's another story. In any case, we discovered that tee shirts at SIGGRAPH is a religious issue, and that if tee shirts are not sold, a significant number of people get so upset they start throwing tantrums, calling people bozos, etc. (say it ain't so, Joe! :-) Brian Herzog herzog@sun.com (The summary line is quoted from the Firesign Theater album of the same name.)
herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) (08/28/89)
In article <13357@well.UUCP>, lmeyer@well.UUCP (lhary meyer) writes: > > Why not run the film show CONTINUOUSLY through 3 days or so. Museums do > shows this way. After manning a booth 8-10 hours I'm too damn tired to > sit htru the show. You could use a smaller theater that way. I know it > would be hard on the show people....but thats show biz. Believe it or not, there was a time when the show was done once. A tremendous amount of labor and equipment goes into producing each show. A smaller theater with lesser equipment would not yield a show of the quality which attendees have come to expect. After doing A/V for papers and panels all day, the crew was pretty tired, too, yet they still had six shows to do. Besides, you wouldn't want to admit to getting more than 3 hours a night of sleep at SIGGRAPH, would you? :-) The animation screening room *did* run continuously for three days, showing classics from the past as well as many excellent pieces that weren't in the "big" theater. -Brian Herzog herzog@sun.com
watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov (John S. Watson) (08/28/89)
In article <123840@sun.Eng.Sun.COM> herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM (Brian Herzog, Sun Microsystems, GPD) writes: >In article <12691@pur-ee.UUCP>, 3ksnn64@pur-ee.UUCP (Joe Cychosz) writes: >> In article <4400038@m.cs.uiuc.edu> shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >> > >> >6. Does the tee shirt have to be ugly as sin? >> I like the shirt this year. It's a lot better than last year when >> some bozo decide to not have T-shirts in Atlanta. > > I'm the one who decided not to have tee shirts in Atlanta. I was > merchandise chair that year. An unscientific poll the year before > indicated that people had drawers full of tee shirts and wanted something > different for a change, so we sold sweatshirts in Atlanta (yeah, I know - > "sweatshirts in Atlanta in August?" - but these are souvenirs, remember?). Sweatshits can be handy at SIGGRAPH. Even in Atlanta or Dalla in August. Outside it may be +100 degrees, but in the hotels and convention halls they keep it about 32 degrees. (Boston was an exception.) I nearly froze to death in Dallas. My pet peeve: Why have SIGGRAPH in places like Dallas, Atlanta, Las Vegas in July and August? Surely the weather might be nicer earlier or later. Who's the Bozo that decides this? (I got to meet Bozo when I was a kid! :-) John S. Watson, Civil Servant from Hell ARPA: watson@ames.arc.nasa.gov NASA Ames Research Center UUCP: ...!ames!watson Any opinions expressed herein are, like, solely the responsibility of the, like, author and do not, like, represent the opinions of NASA or the U.S. Government.
grogers@m.cs.uiuc.edu (08/28/89)
/* Written 8:41 am Aug 25, 1989 by chuck@melmac.harris-atd.com in m.cs.uiuc.edu:comp.graphics */
I thought the meals were pretty good. On Monday, they served gazpacho
and turkey salad croissants. On Tuesday, we had some excellent clam chowder
and cold cuts. I consider both far superior to peanut butter. In general,
all the meals I've had at SIGGRAPH have been good, with the exception of
the cold peach soup in Atlanta.
/* */
Hmmm, I think I had both of those lunches. I don't think I'll be
eating the SIGGRAPH lunches again.
If I want cold cuts for lunch then I maybe I should just bring a
sandwich from home. 8^) But seriously, just how much of our
registration went for those cold cuts? Since the courses, and lunches,
are usually at the expensive hotels I would suspect the lunches cost
quite a bit. Say, maybe $8? Personally, when I'm in Boston, or any
other large city, I would rather spend my $8 on some good food that I
can't get back home (Urbana, IL). I did find one really excellent
Thai restaurant that had $5 lunches. I also found a steak house near
the convention center where the service was so bad that we
eventually walked out without paying (we never did get our food, just
salad and some of our drinks). Our waiter actually disappeared
after taking our order. We are still looking for his picture on the
backs of milk cartons.
Now for a serious suggestion concerning SIGGRAPH lunches. Every year that
I have attended (3) I have seen several people ask if there is a vegetarian
plate. There never has been. This year the service people made a special
request and up from the kitchen came a plate loaded with fruits and vegetables.
Unfortunately, this took about 40 minutes. When the plate arrived, everyone
at our table said "Boy, I wish I had that instead." I think that speaks
for itself.
gregshirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu (08/30/89)
>/* Written by herzog@dogwalk.Sun.COM in comp.graphics */ >In article <4400038@m.cs.uiuc.edu>, shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: > >> 1. The reception costs are bundled with the technical and course >> registration fees. This way people who are already having their way >> paid can get the receptions covered too. Those paying their own way >> are forced to pay for possibly unwanted services. >> >It would be wonderful if SIGGRAPH could fine-tune each person's registration >to provide (and allow admission to) only those session and events in >which s/he wishes to participate. SIGGRAPH "unbundles" as much as it >practically can, as much or more so (I believe) than other conferences of >comparable size, and certainly more than small conferences, which are >usually all-or-nothing affairs. At the other end of the spectrum are >those who would feel they were being nickle-and-dimed to death if they >had to pay for every little thing. And others who would object because >their companies would not reimburse them for the "extra" activities. > Let me get this straight-- in the SIGGRAPH '89 registration process, I had option to get a set of course notes, technical slides, art show slides, stereo slides, t-shirt, polo shirt, visor, baseball cap, mug, calender, and mouse pad. I personally would be willing to sacrafice the choice between the visor and baseball cap, if I could instead choose to forego the receptions (list price $40 each). Since there are already tickets, this doesn't seem so tough to me. I can see why the lunches are harder, so why not unbundle the receptions? By the way, I think the organizers of SIGGRAPH do a very good job. I just don't like to pay $100 for bad food in BOSTON of all places! Also, I thank Mr. Herzog for his thoughtful responses from the 'inner circle'. peter shirley shirley@cs.uiuc.edu
grogers@m.cs.uiuc.edu (08/30/89)
The siggraph courses have evaluations that cover the topic, level of detail, and presentation. Is there any evaluation of the course meals and receptions? Are people participating in these events because they have already paid for them or because they're so enjoyable? As for the choice of lunch and location, have you ever eaten in the Hotel restaurant because you thought the food was excellent or the price was reasonable? The price for the reception was $40. For that $40 I could have purchased the mug, mouse pad, calendar, t-shirt, and hat or visor. I know what my choice would have been. Of course I realize that there is more to eating with the whole course group than just filling my stomach. Overall I think that SIGGRAPH is well run and well worth my time and money. I just don't think the food is worth the cost (whatever that cost might be!) Finally a constructive suggestion. The cost of SIGGRAPH hasn't increased since 1987. If (when) it is necessary to increase the cost, the conference can remain affordable if the frills (e.g. receptions) are charged separately. As it is now, the current cost is still affordable by graduate students. Any increase would surely prevent some students from attending. greg
greg.trice@canremote.uucp (GREG TRICE) (08/30/89)
While on the subject of t-shirts, why do you have so few made? In 7 years attending I've NEVER been able to get one at all. By the time I arrive (I usually attend for the technical sessions only) they've long sold out. Would it be too much to ask to have them continuously available for the entire duration of the conference? And please tell me where I can get one of the ones I missed! --- * Via ProDoor 3.01R
ksbooth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Kelly Booth) (08/31/89)
In article <4400041@m.cs.uiuc.edu> shirley@m.cs.uiuc.edu writes: >Let me get this straight-- in the SIGGRAPH '89 registration process, I had >option to get a set of course notes, technical slides, art show slides, >stereo slides, t-shirt, polo shirt, visor, baseball cap, mug, calender, >and mouse pad. I personally would be willing to sacrafice the choice >between the visor and baseball cap, if I could instead choose to >forego the receptions (list price $40 each). Since there are already >tickets, this doesn't seem so tough to me. I can see why the lunches >are harder, so why not unbundle the receptions? There are some differences here. Most of the "merchandise" items are either stocked for subsequent sale by the ACM Order department (proceedings, slides sets, videos -- but not the course notes for reasons discussed here a number of times before) or they are expected to sell out at the conference. In either case, the financial exposure is relatively small (SIGGRAPH eventually sells all of the major merchandise items and often sells out all of the minor items on site). Receptions and lunches are a different matter. Decisions on booking rooms for these events, busing, and catering orders all involve commitments that can be quite expensive to back out of. Given that roughly half of the registration is on-site, the lead time isn't there to make guesses. This is the financial end of things. Logistically, course lunches have traditionally been bundled because in some cities (Detroit and Dallas come to mind immediately) there simply are not enough places for a couple of thousand people to grab lunch all at the same time (unless you count hot dogs purchased from the same caterers who supply lunch, at about the same jacked up prices). Socially, the decision to bundle lunches and receptions is an attempt to ensure that attendees have some opportunity and incentive to spend time talking to other attendees. When the conference was smaller, the activities served also as a good opportunity to meet the course and technical speakers, but in the last few years it has become less so. The question of bundling or unbundling these events is discussed on a regular basis. In the end, only one of the two options can be offered. The current thinking is that bundling serves the best interests of the technical community, even though it is well known that particular individuals may or may not benefit from or like the bundling.
tris@alzabo.uucp (Tris Orendorff) (08/31/89)
I thought the mug was totally useless and it looked pretty bad too.
I think that mine will sit in the back of the closet forever.
The two courses I took (29, 30) were rather interesting but a lot
of the material was not new. Most of it was published in '87 and '88.
The meals were ok but the rooms we ate in were crowded with about
ten people per table.
I enjoyed the exhibits the most. There were lots of technical people
at the booths who knew a lot about their products. There is nothing more
frustrating than going to a booth that is full of salesmen.
--
Sincerely Yours
Tris Orendorff
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