11BDODD@GALLUA.BITNET (03/08/90)
Will you please send me an algortihm of Bezier? Thank-you, Beverly Dodd Beverly Dodd Bitnet: 11bdodd@gallua.bitnet People/Link: B.DODD Gallaudet University Internet: 11bdodd@gallux.gallaudet.edu GEnie: B.DODD1 P.O. Box 489, 800 Florida Ave., N.E., Washington, DC 20002 "Gallaudet University is the only university for the deaf in the world."
dfr@usna.NAVY.MIL (Prof. David F. Rogers <dfr@usna>) (03/17/90)
READ THE MESSAGE BELOW CAREFULLY. See my comment below. In article <9003141916.AA24614@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, 11BDODD@GALLUA.BITNET writes: > > Will you please send me an algortihm of Bezier? > > > Thank-you, > Beverly Dodd > > Beverly Dodd Bitnet: 11bdodd@gallua.bitnet People/Link: B.DODD > Gallaudet University Internet: 11bdodd@gallux.gallaudet.edu GEnie: B.DODD1 > P.O. Box 489, 800 Florida Ave., N.E., Washington, DC 20002 > "Gallaudet University is the only university for the deaf in the world." Based on the number of messages of this type from this individual over the last few months, it looks like she is asking the net to do her homework. If this is in fact the case, then she is being dishonest. If it is not then I expect to hear from her to the contrary. In that case I'll apologize. If students are given access to the net and then use it in the manner suggested above, then the only recourse that a Professor has is to restrict student access to the net. That would be a shame. Those of us on the net should NOT participate in any activity of this nature. Professor David F. Rogers Aerospace Engineering Department U.S. Naval Academy Annapolis, MD 21402 USA Tel: 301-267-3283/4/5 Internet: dfr@usna.navy.mil UUCP: ~uunet!usna!cad!dfr
elf@dgp.toronto.edu (Eugene Fiume) (03/17/90)
In article <204@usna.NAVY.MIL> dfr@usna.NAVY.MIL (Prof. David F. Rogers <dfr@usna>) writes:
... A lot of stuff about student dishonesty, homework, expected apologies, etc.
The requests by this Dodd person have been so vague they're funny. Given the
odd message routing through Berkeley, I prefer to think of them as hoaxes or
jokes. As to the more general issue that Professor Rogers addresses (that of
people doing their homework based on submissions from the net), I suggest that
it's no more dishonest than those who consult a book to solve their graphics
homework. Both may be dishonest practices, but they're equally so. Curiously,
I haven't heard Professor Rogers or anyone else warning about the potential
abuses of graphics textbooks.
--
Eugene Fiume, Dynamic Graphics Project
Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto
elf@dgp.toronto.edu, (416) 978-5472mcooper@suna1.cs.uiuc.edu (03/18/90)
A bit general, don't you think? Bezier curves? bezier patches? 2d? 3d? what?
gg10@prism.gatech.EDU (Gregory L. Galloway) (03/18/90)
In article <1990Mar17.025303.17752@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, elf@dgp.toronto.edu (Eugene Fiume) writes: > In article <204@usna.NAVY.MIL> dfr@usna.NAVY.MIL (Prof. David F. Rogers <dfr@usna>) writes: > >> ... A lot of stuff about student dishonesty, homework, expected apologies, >> etc. > > ... A lot of stuff about hoaxes and jokes, abuses, etc. I don't think this is a joke or a hoax. Clearly from the signature this is a deaf individual from Gaulladet (sp?) University. I replied once before to this person and her friend to give them bibliographic information so that they could better find their sources. The root of their problem seems to be their lack of a good technical library or book store. They are unable to get a hold of sources that a lot of take for granted. I could be wrong, but this is how it appears to me. Even the messages read like someone who is unable or has difficultly speaking, i.e. few or incorrect verbs, etc. On the subject of course work and texts abuses, I have never taken a computer graphics course except for three at Siggraph. I doubt that I will take any more. Computer graphics is a relatively young field. Most information about it is found in books like those by Rogers and Siggraph proceedings. Now, I am not a student and I bought Rogers' book. If I were a student would I be expected to reinvent such this a Bezier curves from scratch without a book. If I am allowed to use a book but can't get access to one, what then? This may come as a shock to most people but it appears to me that computer science courses in computer graphics teach people existing (almost fundamental) algorithms from a text like Rogers (it is used here at Tech) and expect that students be able to implement them in code. Most people never ever invent a new or revolutionary algorithm, they just learn how the old ones work and how to use and code them. This seems to be life. But from learning the old ones and implementing them, a few go off and see a new way of doing things, a way to speed things up. They find a new algorithm. I think it appropriate that if an individual cannot find a source of an algorithm in their area, that they be allowed to publicly ask how to get it. A valid response may be here's the address of the publisher and the ISBN number, send them a check. Lets help people get up to speed and avoid reinventing the wheel so that the whole community can benefit from their efforts. You may be cutting off the next Bresenham. We need LESS flaming in all net groups, especially computer graphics. Too many times I have seen people get blasted from asking simple questions. It cuts down on the communication because it drives people away. I'm also disappointed that comp.graphics does not discuss that many algorithms for realistic three-dimensional computer graphics. Most of the traffic is taken up by requests for 2D PC stuff, and GIF-type images and converters. Last time I posted a question about scan-line and A-buffer, only four people responded: Loren Carpenter (the author), Charles Grant (former siggraph tutorial teacher), Tony Apocada (pixar employee), and Charlie Gibson (from rythym and hues). Now this was a very impressive group of people, but where were the responses from the countless anonymous people have implemented this algorithms. They have better things to do than read this group I guess, or too busy Ray-tracing to care about any other algorithm. Greg Galloway Georgia Tech Research Institute Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta, Georgia 30332-0280 (404)894-3357 gg10@prism.gatech.edu -- Greg Galloway // gg10@prism.gatech.edu // (404)894-3357 GTRI/EML/EOD, Georgia Inst of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia 30332-0280
mdiehl@ariel.unm.edu (J. Michael Diehl) (03/18/90)
I think Gregory Gallaway made a good point: Computer Graphics is a rather new topic and that few references are available on the topic. I'm studying Math and Computer Science here at UNM and am interested in graphics. I read this news group simply because I want to know what people are doing in this area of study. I guess I COULD wait for the book.....in about 5 years! I too, would like to see more discussion of algorithms. I can program, so I realy don't need to see code. Pseudo-code would be nice though. Discussion of data structures would also be nice! I really don't mean to flamme.....just putting in my 2 cents. +-------------------------+----------------------------------------------------+ | J. Michael Diehl ;-] | I thought I was wrong once. But, I was mistaken. | | +----------------------------------------------------+ | mdiehl@ariel.unm.edu | WANTED: beautiful, friendly, wealthy women. If you| | Thunder@forum | meet these qualifications, let me know. | | Thunder@abermud | | | (303) 272-9845 | | +-------------------------+----------------------------------------------------+
markv@gauss.Princeton.EDU (Mark VandeWettering) (03/18/90)
Concerning Ms. Dodd in particular, I urge people to ignore any of her requests until she at least takes the time and effort to formalate a precise question for the net. Her questions are not even proper English, and show that she has zero understanding of anything having to do with computer graphics. I would like to believe that it is some form of hoax, how bout someone fessing up with a punchline? As for people's gripes about using the net for homework, I mostly agree. The way you learn things is to sweat things out a bit. If you get totally stuck, then go ahead and ask for references, pseudocode or even source, but at least convince us that you have done some effort. As for the lack of good references, there are now several "almost adequate" texts out that should be useable. For more research topics, hit the Siggraph proceedings. You can learn alot by just trying to implement little bits and pieces. Do a simple raytracer. A scanline renderer. A ditherer. You will learn a great deal. Mark
dave@imax.com (Dave Martindale) (03/18/90)
In article <1990Mar17.025303.17752@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu> elf@dgp.toronto.edu (Eugene Fiume) writes: > >. As to the more general issue that Professor Rogers addresses (that of >people doing their homework based on submissions from the net), I suggest that >it's no more dishonest than those who consult a book to solve their graphics >homework. Both may be dishonest practices, but they're equally so. Different courses have different standards of ethics. In many courses I've been in, it was considered OK (even expected) that you'd go look at reference books to help understand an algorithm, but that you were then actually supposed to implement it yourself - borrowing code from other students was not considered OK. I believe the reasoning was that you were supposed to do the assignment not so that you could have a working assignment, but to demonstrate that you knew how to implement a particular algorithm, or make use of a particular set of library routines. So any reference that helped to understand the algorithm was OK, while any that helped you bypass learning the algorithm was cheating. In this sort of environment, asking USENET for help in understanding an algorithm would be OK, while asking for code would not. But this is all relative to the "ethical standards" set out for the course, which can be different for different courses and different professors. Unless we know that, we can't judge whether a request is improper. (It may be impolite or wasteful, but that's another issue). (philosophical comment:) It's so much more practical being a Researcher instead of a poor Student. Researchers are allowed to use as much of other people's code as they want, and to give their own code to other Researchers. So much of being a Student is demonstrating that you can reproduce yourself the work that someone else has already done better. I'm glad I'm not a Student anymore. (so why am I thinking of becoming one again someday?)
890645s@aucs.uucp (STEELE) (03/19/90)
gg10@prism.gatech.EDU (Gregory L. Galloway) writes: >We need LESS flaming in all net groups, especially computer graphics. Too many >times I have seen people get blasted from asking simple questions. It cuts >down on the communication because it drives people away. I couldn't agree more. Comp.graphics is the only newsgroup in which I have a great FEAR in posting messages in. This newsgroup isn't moderated, and I certainly don't see any progress towards dividing the newsgroup. This constant flaming really ticks me off. Jay Steele -- UUCP: {uunet|watmath|utai}!cs.dal.ca!aucs!890645s Jay D. Steele 214 Horton House Acadia University Wolfville, NS CANADA B0P 1X0 (902) 542-4644
gg10@prism.gatech.EDU (Gregory L. Galloway) (03/19/90)
In article <14651@phoenix.Princeton.EDU>, markv@gauss.Princeton.EDU (Mark VandeWettering) writes: > Concerning Ms. Dodd in particular, I urge people to ignore any of her > requests until she at least takes the time and effort to formalate a precise > question for the net. Her questions are not even proper English... > > I would like to believe that it is some form of hoax... > > As for people's gripes about using the net for homework... This was exactly the point of my last posting, if this person is truely deaf, that is a handicap to learning correct English. We cannot assume that this person is an idiot just because they don't phrase their questions well. What about our oriental and european friends? I've seen some pretty general difficult questions from them too. I can't believe this is a hoax. Lazy maybe. Homework? If we give someone code maybe, but they're only asking for sources. So point them in the right direction, tell them which articles are worth their time and leave it at that. The general concensus of personal mail that I've received as echoed my concern for lack of technical discussions. Seems like this really does warrent the past discussions about splitting off the 2d and image questions to a second group. Let's all help better the S/N ratio. Greg Galloway Georgia Tech Research Institute Georgia Institute of Technology Atlanta, Georgia 30332-0280 (404)894-3357 gg10@prism.gatech.edu -- Greg Galloway // gg10@prism.gatech.edu // (404)894-3357 GTRI/EML/EOD, Georgia Inst of Technology, Atlanta, Georgia 30332-0280
billd@fps.com (Bill Davidson) (03/19/90)
In article <9003141916.AA24614@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, 11BDODD@GALLUA.BITNET writes: > Will you please send me an algortihm of Bezier? In article <204@usna.NAVY.MIL> dfr@usna.NAVY.MIL (Prof. David F. Rogers <dfr@usna>) writes: >Based on the number of messages of this type from this individual over the >last few months, it looks like she is asking the net to do her homework. >If this is in fact the case, then she is being dishonest. If it is not >then I expect to hear from her to the contrary. In that case I'll >apologize. >If students are given access to the net and then use it in the manner >suggested above, then the only recourse that a Professor has is to >restrict student access to the net. That would be a shame. >Those of us on the net should NOT participate in any activity of this >nature. As much as I respect Prof. Rogers (love his books), I must disagree with this. While I think that the question is a bit stupid due to it's generality, I don't think that there's anything dishonest about asking for pointers to Bezier algorithms. It's not exactly something that a student can just make up from scratch. I personally mailed a pointer to a good common reference for 2D Bezier curves to Dodd but it bounced. The net is a somewhat less valid but more responsive than textbooks. Dodd should have looked in the local libraries first and then tried friends in the same class or other graphics guru types before the net. If she had, she would have found what she wanted since Bezier is fairly well documented in many texts. It's a minor transgression but I don't think it even comes close to equaling academic dishonesty even if it is her homework. She does need to learn to do her own research. It seems several people from her site need to do this too. On the other hand, even if she does get her act together on research, some things are just plain hard to find. For instance, color quantization is glazed over very quickly in a couple of texts but for the most part you can't find it in the standard introductory texts. There is stuff in the journals but that can be quite difficult to find for the beginner (or even the old hand ;-). This particular subject has been handled on the net by the FAQ posting (at least the best introductory reference to the subject is there). Another subject like this is dithering which is glazed over in most introductory texts but is usually covered quite poorly. The FAQ posting sugests Ulichney which is definite overkill (everything you never wanted to know about dithering and were sorry you asked). When someone asks "How do you dither?" on the net, I often send them a summary of dithering techniques that I wrote up for myself when I was learning about it. Bill Davidson billd@fps.com System Administrator celerity!billd@ucsd.edu FPS Computing Inc., San Diego ...!ucsd!celerity!billd 9692 Via Excelencia San Diego CA 92126 (619) 271-9940 Ext. 242
bdb@becker.UUCP (Bruce Becker) (03/19/90)
In article <204@usna.NAVY.MIL> dfr@usna.NAVY.MIL (Prof. David F. Rogers <dfr@usna>) writes: |READ THE MESSAGE BELOW CAREFULLY. See my comment below. | |In article <9003141916.AA24614@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU>, 11BDODD@GALLUA.BITNET writes: |> |> Will you please send me an algortihm of Bezier? |> |> Thank-you, |> Beverly Dodd | |Based on the number of messages of this type from this individual over the |last few months, it looks like she is asking the net to do her homework. |If this is in fact the case, then she is being dishonest. If it is not |then I expect to hear from her to the contrary. In that case I'll |apologize. | |If students are given access to the net and then use it in the manner |suggested above, then the only recourse that a Professor has is to |restrict student access to the net. That would be a shame. | |Those of us on the net should NOT participate in any activity of this |nature. I'm at a loss to understand how this request constitutes dishonesty if it comes from a student. Surely the net is a valid resource of information just as a textbook is (such as youw own very excellent ones). In any case one would either provide some pointers to reference material, or else a short tutorial - how is the recipient of such information cheating? Puzzled, -- (__) Bruce Becker Toronto, Ontario w \@@/ Internet: bdb@becker.UUCP, bruce@gpu.utcs.toronto.edu `/v/-e UUCP: ...!uunet!mnetor!becker!bdb _/ \_ "So far from God, so close to the United States" - Old Mexican proverb
elf@dgp.toronto.edu (Eugene Fiume) (03/19/90)
Several interesting comments have been generated in just the short time since Prof. Rogers issued what was in my opinion a heavy-handed statement and my intentionally ironic (and equally heavy-handed) follow up. I'll briefly address a few issues that have come up. First, you will note that I didn't say that looking in a textbook is dishonest. I simply asserted that it was no more dishonest to get information from the net than from a book. As Dave Martindale and others have pointed out, the ethics of using that information is context dependent. In my graphics courses I have seen lots of examples on both sides of the fence. Second, it is nicer overall to be a Researcher rather than a Student [though being a grad student or postdoc is an extremely enjoyable time of life]. It is true that information exchange among researchers is fairly free, but it MUST be properly credited in publications. I would think that this is something that should be learned while a student, but often is not. Third, I think it's true that you have to have a tough hide to participate in comp.graphics, and many have tried to humanise the newsgroup by providing things like automated weekly postings (which I agree strongly with BTW). The people who read this newsgroup have a very wide range of training and similarly-wide range of personalities. Try to think of the flames you receive as preparation for the reviews you will receive from a SIGGRAPH paper submission! Fourth, it is easier to write light-weight fluff (like this message) than to write technical articles, and researchers would probably prefer devoting time to writing technical papers for submission somewhere than to submit them to comp.graphics. For this reason (and many others no doubt), you're highly unlikely to ever see new research results announced in this group (especially given all the greed-crazed patent idiots slithering around). It takes a lot of time to write well-informed technical articles, so those who are looking for more meat in comp.graphics may continue to be disappointed. Use the library as a technical dietary supplement...and don't just look at North American publications. -- Eugene Fiume, Dynamic Graphics Project Department of Computer Science, University of Toronto elf@dgp.toronto.edu, (416) 978-5472