webber@athos.rutgers.edu (Bob Webber) (03/18/90)
In article <7169@hydra.gatech.EDU>, gg10@prism.gatech.EDU (Gregory L. Galloway) writes: > In article <1990Mar17.025303.17752@jarvis.csri.toronto.edu>, elf@dgp.toronto.edu (Eugene Fiume) writes: > > In article <204@usna.NAVY.MIL> dfr@usna.NAVY.MIL (Prof. David F. Rogers <dfr@usna>) writes: > >> ... A lot of stuff about student dishonesty, homework, expected apologies, > > ... A lot of stuff about hoaxes and jokes, abuses, etc. > I don't think this is a joke or a hoax. Clearly from the signature this is > a deaf individual from Gaulladet (sp?) University. I replied once before to > this person and her friend to give them bibliographic information so that > they could better find their sources. The root of their problem seems to > be their lack of a good technical library or book store. They are unable to > get a hold of sources that a lot of take for granted. > > I could be wrong, but this is how it appears to me. Gallaudet (named after Thomas Hopkins Gallaudet) is located in Washington D.C., an area characterized by usable public transportation and a number of publically available technical libraries and bookstores. A month or so ago, I sent email indicating that if their local library was inadequate, those of GWU and UofMD were near by. It might be worthwhile putting the posting from dfr in the context of a recent discussion in comp.theory along similar lines that resolved in a call for people to publically protest usage of the net for doing homework. It is a complicated issue. Taken at its narrowest, one might compare it to the situation of seeing someone in a drugstore put a magazine in their pocket. The options are three: 1) ignore it and perhaps let a wrong go unrighted; 2) bring the issue to the attention of the authorities (store owner or local police) and deal with the inconvenience of having the matter officially resolved [comparable to calling the D.C. operator to get the number of Gallaudet and the person administratively overseeing math/comp sci instruction] or 3) complain to other customers about the fall of civilization, which relieves frustration but leaves one open to the possibility of mistakenly accusing someone (something that really can't be undone in a forum this large). I guess most of us have been human long enough to know which options get exercised and why. There are those who would say that the above analogy is false, that the net is closer to being a library than being a bookstore. But even in the case of library usage, there is a rigid rule against the use of sources without attribution. For technical subjects, this usually isn't a problem because it is so difficult for the inexperienced to locate the answers in the technical literature (and most schools don't have reference librarians that understand the literature at the level of doing these kinds of searches), thus the path of least resistance becomes to fulfill the implicit contract and work the problem out for oneself. Of course, at a University there is generally a pool of people addressing the same problems (or having had addressed them in a previous year) and again, there is a clear notion that with appropriate documentation, pursuing this route can result in separation from the school [of course, if the transaction takes place by posting to the net, it is well documented -- although the people seeing the postings are often not the ones primarily concerned with this matter]. The notion that one could somehow ``solve'' this problem by not giving students access to the net is even more absurd than the notion that it would be a good idea for a University to not allow students in the Library. Not only are students major contributers to this group (particulary in the matter of contributed source, which is something that tends to be valued highly on the net), but it is technologically impossible. Although a university account is convenient for people at universities, in most urban areas, there is enough public access unix connectivity to make the costs of an individual getting on the net quite managable for those who know where to look and have the motivation (and of course, it is easier to disguise one's connection with a university when one isn't posting from one). But I think the more interesting issue here is the less narrow one of what is that status of a questioner on the net. Most places that take net feeds sell it to management and new users as a free information source. As such, the most natural new user response to getting net access is to post requests for whatever information they want (after all, if they were just going to read, they might as well go down to the library). Most of the people who have been on the net for a while eventually learn that it is not really an ``information resource'' like a library, but rather more like the local meeting of a technical group where people can meet, mix, discuss common problems, etc. At its simplest form, the person who posts a question is much like someone dropping in and saying ``does anyone have a six pack so that we can party.'' Obviously such a person wears their welcome out soon and never elicits the same response as a person who shows up with a six pack and says ``anyone want to party?'' Since a relatively large portion of the net is new users (the joy of resource growth in computer technology), it is amazing that we haven't long ago gone the way of comp.sources.wanted. But perhaps enough of us are repelled by such a vision of the net, that even in comp.sources.wanted, sometimes a conversation breaks out. For a while now, we have had postings of ``commonly asked questions'' appearing in this group. I would submit that this is fundamentally the wrong approach because it encourages the usage of the group as ``public library'' which is the attitude that is at the root of the problem. There have been many discussions about group splitting and such and doubtless will continue to be. But, except possibly for the name comp.graphics.noquestions, I doubt if changing names will solve anything. The answer instead I suspect lies with the people who choose to post -- given the alternative of making a quick and easy post answering some questioner and posting a reply to some other poster that adds something to an existing discussion chain, choose to be a discourser instead of an ``information resource;'' using a human as a book is a terrible waste, but it takes two for this to happen. ---- BOB (webber@athos.rutgers.edu ; rutgers!athos.rutgers.edu!webber)
lively@sybil.cs.Buffalo.EDU (Richard S. Lively) (03/20/90)
Anecdote follows: A couple of years ago, I had a student post a homework question that I had assigned to comp.graphics. To protect the innocent, let's just say it was something like "Given A, derive B". There were about 10 solutions to the problem posted to the net. 2 of the solutions were not even related to the question posed; 4 were relevant but grossly underestimated the complexity of the problem; 3 solved the problem "Given B, derive A" (a much easier problem); and 1 had the correct solution. The student chose the last solution (hmm-must have learned something!), printed it out verbatim (well, except for the name and institution of the individual from whom it orinated), and submitted it. Surprisingly, I guess it never occurred to them that I might monitor the net as well. The frustrating thing about this is that I am sure that the person that posted the solution did it because they thought they were providing a valuable service. If they only knew the truth...
kevinc@cs.AthabascaU.CA (Kevin Crocker) (03/20/90)
In article <Mar.17.22.06.28.1990.2188@athos.rutgers.edu> webber@athos.rutgers.edu (Bob Webber) writes: > >Of course, at a University there is >generally a pool of people addressing the same problems (or having had >addressed them in a previous year) This and the urban argument may explain why I have had particularly poor response to my requests for graphics tests. I am a faculty member (not in computing) at a remote rural University. I don't have a lot of fellow faculty members or computing gurus to ask that would have this kind of thing sitting in their hip pocket because we would normally have very little need for this type of thing. I made many phone calls trying to track down some graphics programs that could really run a hi res monitor and card through their paces based on information that I got from our gurus. I then chased a lot of private mail around to people that have sounded like they would know about this stuff. My last resort was to make a plea to the net for something that I could only vaguely track down. Since I am not in computer science I had some trouble getting specifics out of people who have just assumed that since I am not in comp sci that I wouldn't understand anything. In general, the responses I got were to read the trade journals, which I did but they are particularly unimpressive about where to actaually get the test programs. I was also referred to comp.graphics because of the expertise that existed in this forum. So far I am very disappointed. BTW, the reason I asked for pointers to where I could get some software is that I have a vision problem. I have made a request for new computer equipment and have been told that I have to provide a detailed analysis of the proposed equipment prior to any committment on the purchase. Thus, I would like to try to find something that would help me perform this analysis - i.e. benchmarks and graphics test suites. My appologies if I have used the wrong terminology but it is the best that I can do without more information. After almost two months of searching I am barely closer to the goal. Comp.graphics is getting close to the last available resource for me. Sincerely, Kevin Crocker Assistant Professor, Finance Studies -- Kevin "auric" Crocker Athabasca University UUCP: ...!{alberta,ncc,attvcr}!atha!kevinc Inet: kevinc@cs.AthabascaU.CA
mollers.pad@nixpbe.uucp (Moellers) (03/22/90)
Hi,
Although this might lead to a fundamental discussion on the merits and
the usage of the net, I'd like to give my own 5 cents worth:
1) As far as the question of "doing homework using the net" is
concerned: I agree that it is wrong to get Your information from the net
an claim it to be yours but ... If You do so, You'll risk being caught
in the act. I myself have tried to use all sources of information
available during study (admittedly not always with reference), so why
blame someone else!
BTW Where do You want to put the border between "work" and "plagiate"
(sp?): If I go into the library and take ACMs Computing Surveys to get
all the references I need, is that wrong (it's easy!).
Perhaps, maybe someone will use the time saved thereby to investigate
the problem further and deeper than is possible when leafing through
reference lists.
As far as I am concerned, if someone comes to me and sais "Can You give
me some leads on this subject", I'll give it to him/her.
2) The question about questions:
I was told once that a "discussion" is a "verbal communication
intended to solve a problem". But then, in order to start a
discussion, someone has to post the problem.
Furthermore, in newsgroups like this, there are a lot of people on
one end of the "knowledge line", i.e. the bottom one, and a few on
the other end, i.e. the top (jeff poskanzler, et al). I admit, it's
easier to just type ":post" and get the question off onto the net for
others to answer, rather than go down to our library and find the
solution myself, but that's what I usually do: lift my head and throw
the question at whoever I see first (my terminal B-{). If the persion
in question can't answer it (or won't), sigh! down we go!
Perhaps we will have to live with the law of "large numbers": we need
many questions to get some very interesting ones.
On the other hand, we can, of course, bar these newsgroups to all
people with a less than average background to avoid "frequently asked
qustions" and get down to the more intersting stuff!
With both points above: If you oppose to get involved with them, leave
them out.
I, for myself, will continue to answer questions like
- Where can I find information about windowing systems?
- How do I divide two floating point numbers fast?
if I can (B-{)!
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