bobl@tessi.UUCP (Bob Lewis) (07/07/88)
Can anyone provide the address at Pixar to write for a copy of this proposal? Please email it to me. I will post it if so requested. - Bob Lewis bobl@tessi.uucp P.S. In case anybody's wondering: RenderMan (cap?), as I understand it, is a proposed format for the description of graphical scenes.
annala@neuro.usc.edu (A J Annala) (07/07/88)
In article <475@ghidrah.tessi.UUCP> bobl@ghidrah.UUCP (Bob Lewis) writes: >Can anyone provide the address at Pixar to write for a copy of this proposal? > >Please email it to me. I will post it if so requested. > > - Bob Lewis > bobl@tessi.uucp > >P.S. In case anybody's wondering: RenderMan (cap?), as I understand it, > is a proposed format for the description of graphical scenes. ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- The RenderMan Interface, Version 3.0, May 1988 Pixar 3240 Kerner Blvd. San Rafael, CA 94901 (415)258-8100 Contact: Barbara Koalkin, Public Relations Reference: May 18, 1988 Press Release The RenderMan interface is designed to be a standard interface between modeling programs and rendering programs capable of producing photorealistic quality images. Renderman is designed so that information needed to specify a photorealistic image can be passed to different rendering programs compactly and efficiently. The interface itself is designed to drive different hardware devices, software implementations, and rendering algorithms. Many types of rendering systems are accommodated by this interface including: z-buffer-based, scanline-based, ray tracing, terrain rendering, molecule or sphere rendering, and proprietary architectures. In order to do this, the interface does not specify how the picture is to be rendered, but instead specifies what picture is desired. All RanderMan renderers will support: o the interface procedures as defined including types, constants, etc o produce picture files specifying any combination of RGB, A and Z ... the level of resolution set by the user o perform filtering and antialiasing o perform gamma correction and dithering before quantization o perform orthographic and perspective viewing transformations o perform hidden surface removal o provide geometric primitives and transformation commands o provide standard light source, surface, and atmosphere shaders required by the spec. Option features include: o solid modeling, trim curves, variable level of detail, motion blur, depth of field, programmable shading, special camera projections, deformations, and displacements. Companies already endorsing the RenderMan Interface include: Apollo, Ardent, DEC, MIPS Computer Systems, NeXT, Prime, Stellar Computer, Sun Microsystems, Symbolics Graphics Div, Alias Research, Autodesk, Digital Arts, Intelligent Light, Synthesis Software Solutions, Industrial Light & Magic, Pacific Data Images, R/Greenberg Associates, The Analytic Sciences Corporation, Walt Disney Corporation. I believe this is a specification well worth review and comment back to the Pixar Corporation. Some features might be enhanced by wide review & comment. Additional information on 3-D rendering techniques may be found in: Angell, I. O. and Gareth Griffith. High Resolution Computer Graphics Using FORTRAN-77. New York: John Wiley & Sons. 1987. ISBN 0-470-20773-6 Mahnenat-Thalmann, Nadia and Daniel Thalmann. Image Synthesis: Theory and Practice. Tokoyo: Springer-Verlag. 1987. ISBN 4-431-70023-4 ... and ... Rogers, David F. Procedural Elements for Computer Graphics. New York: McGraw-Hill Book Company. 1985. ISBN 0-07-053534-5 Rogers & Angell provide excellent implementation details. Mahnenat provides a broad overview, with good depth of coverage, and voluminous references to the research literature on photorealistic image rendering. A.J. Annala, USC NIBS Program, annala%neuro.usc.edu@oberon.usc.edu
ksbooth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Kelly Booth) (07/08/88)
In article <475@ghidrah.tessi.UUCP> bobl@ghidrah.UUCP (Bob Lewis) writes: >Can anyone provide the address at Pixar to write for a copy of this proposal? Look in the SIGGRAPH '87 proceedings or the CACM issue with the Jello article, or use the pixar e-mail address that has appeared in this news group many times (it's pixar, but of course I don't know the path from your site).
ksbooth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Kelly Booth) (07/08/88)
In article <475@ghidrah.tessi.UUCP> bobl@ghidrah.UUCP (Bob Lewis) writes: >Can anyone provide the address at Pixar to write for a copy of this proposal? P.S. I saved the following form the Jello fiasco. Paul Heckbert is now at Berkeley, not Pixar. >From: bp@pixar.uucp (Bruce Perens)
sow@eru.mt.luth.se (Sven-Ove Westberg) (07/11/88)
In article <10468@oberon.USC.EDU> annala@neuro.usc.edu (A J Annala) writes: |------------------------------------------------------------------------------- | | |The RenderMan interface is designed to be a standard interface between |modeling programs and rendering programs capable of producing photorealistic |quality images. |Companies already endorsing the RenderMan Interface include: Apollo, Ardent, |DEC, MIPS Computer Systems, NeXT, Prime, Stellar Computer, Sun Microsystems, |Symbolics Graphics Div, Alias Research, Autodesk, Digital Arts, Intelligent |Light, Synthesis Software Solutions, Industrial Light & Magic, Pacific Data |Images, R/Greenberg Associates, The Analytic Sciences Corporation, Walt |Disney Corporation. | |I believe this is a specification well worth review and comment back to the |Pixar Corporation. Some features might be enhanced by wide review & comment. | Since this seems to be a wide spread standard it would be very nice if someone could post it to the net. Sven-Ove Westberg, CAD, University of Lulea, S-951 87 Lulea, Sweden. UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!enea!cad.luth.se!sow ARPA: sow%cad.luth.se@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (only dumb ARPA mailers) Internet: sow@cad.luth.se Bitnet: sow%cad.luth.se@sekth
ewhac@well.UUCP (07/13/88)
In article <10468@oberon.USC.EDU> annala@neuro.usc.edu (A J Annala) writes: >The RenderMan Interface, Version 3.0, May 1988 >Pixar >3240 Kerner Blvd. >San Rafael, CA 94901 >(415)258-8100 > >The RenderMan interface is designed to be a standard interface between >modeling programs and rendering programs capable of producing photorealistic >quality images. Renderman is designed so that information needed to specify >a photorealistic image can be passed to different rendering programs compactly >and efficiently. [ ... ] In order to do this, the interface does not >specify how the picture is to be rendered, but instead specifies what picture >is desired. > This reminds me: I picked up a copy of this about a month ago. What it appears to be is a library interface specification for a rendering package (Thou shalt name thy functions this way, and they shall accept these arguments). Now the question: Have they settled on a file storage format for RenderMan-defined scenes? I mean, the library interface specification is wonderful and all, but I can't see how I can use a modelling program to create models/scenes for it, unless it generates C source as output. Am I missing something? Am I from Mars? Is it my breath?... Hey, where did everybody go? _-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_-_ Leo L. Schwab -- The Guy in The Cape INET: well!ewhac@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU \_ -_ Recumbent Bikes: UUCP: pacbell > !{well,unicom}!ewhac O----^o The Only Way To Fly. hplabs / (pronounced "AE-wack") "Hmm, you're right. Air is made up of suspended meat loaf." -- Josh Siegel
ksbooth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Kelly Booth) (07/13/88)
In article <1096@luth.luth.se> Sven-Ove Westberg <sow@cad.luth.se> writes: >Since this seems to be a wide spread standard it would be very nice >if someone could post it to the net. The document is far too large to post to the net.
julian@riacs.edu (Julian E Gomez) (07/14/88)
In article <6516@well.UUCP> ewhac@well.UUCP (Leo 'Bols Ewhac' Schwab) writes:
" ...
" Now the question: Have they settled on a file storage format for
" RenderMan-defined scenes? I mean, the library interface specification is
" ...
Pixar plans to release the Renderman Interface Protocol, which
will be a file format for Renderman scene descriptions.
--
"Have you ever wondered if taxation without representation was cheaper?"
Julian "Dr. Wombat" Gomez
julian@riacs.edu || {...decvax!}ames!riacs!julianscott@applix.UUCP (Scott Evernden) (07/16/88)
In article <5167@watcgl.waterloo.edu> ksbooth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Kelly Booth) writes: |In article <1096@luth.luth.se> Sven-Ove Westberg <sow@cad.luth.se> writes: |>Since this seems to be a wide spread standard it would be very nice |>if someone could post it to the net. | |The document is far too large to post to the net. Hmm, I didn't think _anything_ was too large to post to the net... -scott
markv@uoregon.uoregon.edu (Mark VandeWettering) (07/17/88)
The discussion of the Renderman specification has peaked my interest, if it is indeed to large to post to the net, how about making it available from one of the many well-known anonymous ftp sites such as ucbvax or uunet? Mark VandeWettering, markv@cs.uoregon.edu
sow@eru.mt.luth.se (Sven-Ove Westberg) (07/19/88)
In article <5167@watcgl.waterloo.edu> ksbooth@watcgl.waterloo.edu (Kelly Booth) writes: |In article <1096@luth.luth.se> Sven-Ove Westberg <sow@cad.luth.se> writes: |>Since this seems to be a wide spread standard it would be very nice |>if someone could post it to the net. | |The document is far too large to post to the net. How large is it? My idea is that if this kind of stuff was posted to the net then we could start to review it. What else should we have this newsgroup for. Asking questions where the answer is read page nn in your favorite text book? If anyone has a computer readable version please post it, or mail it to me. Regards, Sven-Ove Westberg, CAD, University of Lulea, S-951 87 Lulea, Sweden. Tel: +46-920-91677 (work) +46-920-48390 (home) UUCP: {uunet,mcvax}!enea!cad.luth.se!sow ARPA: sow%cad.luth.se@ucbvax.berkeley.edu (only dumb ARPA mailers) Internet: sow@cad.luth.se Bitnet: sow%cad.luth.se@sekth.bitnet
apollo@ecf.toronto.edu (Vince Pugliese) (07/23/88)
i have a copy of The RenderMan Interface Version 3.0
May 1988 and it weighs in at a little over 100 pages which
may be a bit too big for net distribution. also there are
illustrations in the document so, unless something like the
postscript version of the document were posted you would miss
some of the illustrative points that are being made. hope that
helps.
vince pugliese
apollo@ecf.toronto.eduarnold@ux.cs.man.ac.uk (Toby Howard) (01/17/89)
I would like to know what actual implementations of the Renderman proposal have appeared, if any. Can anyone shed any light on this? Thanks Toby Toby Howard Lecturer Department of Computer Science University of Manchester
marmar@mtk.UUCP (Mark Martino) (08/08/89)
I'd like to know more about Renderman. Where can I get a specification or a book about it? I understand that it is intended for 3D graphics, but does it handle 2D graphics as well or is there a lot of excess baggage?
jh34607@suntc.UUCP (john howell) (08/09/89)
In article <887@mtk.UUCP>, marmar@mtk.UUCP (Mark Martino) writes: > I'd like to know more about Renderman. Where can I get a specification or > a book about it? Addison-Wesley publishes a book by Steve Upstill (of Pixar) called "The Renderman Companion". See your local bookstore. A copy of the "Renderman Interface Specification" can be obtained by sending $15 to cover postage and hamdling to: Renderman Pixar 3240 Kerner Blvd. San Rafael, CA 94901 >I understand that it is intended for 3D graphics, but > does it handle 2D graphics as well or is there a lot of excess baggage? Be sure you understand that Renderman is a SPECIFICATION for RENDERING only. This means that it does no modeling and no rendering. A separate product from Pixar being called "Photorealistic Renderman" is a rendering product only that fits the Renderman specification. About the only way that Photorealistic renderman is available is through a developers kit that consists of a C library that provides the Rendering capability to your own program. Again Renderman has nothing to do with modeling. I suppose Renderman is inheritantly 3D but you certainly should be able to render 2D objects also. As for excess baggage ... Disclaimer: I have absolutely nothing to do with Pixar, but was at SIGGRAPH and got very excited about the Renderman concept. ======================================================================== John Howell uucp: uunet!suntc!jrh Deere & Company MCImail: John R. Howell, 360-4047 Technical Center CompuServe: john howell [76666,2505] 3300 River Drive FAX: (309)765-3807 Moline, IL 61265 Voice: (309)765-3784 ========================================================================
gg10@prism.gatech.EDU (Galloway, Greg) (11/14/89)
Does anyone know of the current status of the RenderMan standard? Are any individuals or companies writing implementations of this standard? And if so, for what platforms? What other documentation is needed besides _the_RenderMan_Companion_ and a stack of Siggraph proceedings to write an implementation? Thanks, Greg Galloway Georgia Institute of Technology gg10@prism.gatech.edu Please E-mail responses.
pcb@gator.cacs.usl.edu (Peter C. Bahrs) (07/11/90)
Sorry for the redundancy... Where can I obtain renderman? Is it PD? /*----------- Thanks in advance... --------------------------------------+ | Peter C. Bahrs | | The USL-NASA Project | | Center For Advanced Computer Studies INET: pcb@gator.cacs.usl.edu | | 2 Rex Street | | University of Southwestern Louisiana ...!uunet!dalsqnt!gator!pcb | | Lafayette, LA 70504 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------*/
toby@r2.cs.man.ac.uk (Toby Howard) (01/03/91)
Hi, I'd like to get an implementation of Renderman. Can anyone advise me on
availability?
Thanks
Toby
--
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Toby Howard Computer Science Department, University of Manchester,
Lecturer Oxford Road, Manchester, M13 9PL, U.K.
janet: toby@uk.ac.man.cs.p1
internet: toby%p1.cs.man.ac.uk@nsfnet-relay.ac.uk
earn/bitnet: toby%uk.ac.man.cs.p1@UKACRL
uucp: ...!ukc!mup1!toby voice: +44 61-275-6274
--------------------------------------------------------------------------ddulmage@cdp.UUCP (01/05/91)
>Hi, I'd like to get an implementation of Renderman. Can anyone advise >me on availability? > I believe that the new Autodesk 3D studio is based on Renderman. Check with your local AutoCad dealer over there, I don't really know if it is in distribution yet..
lance@motcsd.csd.mot.com (lance.norskog) (01/06/91)
toby@r2.cs.man.ac.uk (Toby Howard) writes: >Hi, I'd like to get an implementation of Renderman. Can anyone advise me on >availability? Yes, it's out for the Mac. Renderman by itself is a library; you can trace off all library interactions to a .rib file, and replay that file with a program that reads the .rib (Renderman Intermediate Something) file and does all the library calls again. Pixar is working on something called Gallery, which is a cute front end with lots of pre-defined stuff so you can make pictures without writing C code. Obligatory Mac Flame: On the Mac, this is a true blessing. It's extremely slow. Pixar has something else called WireMan (??) which just does wire-frames and is real-time. You code with Wire-Man and then render with RenderMan. Lance
jdashe@Autodesk.COM (Jeremy Dashe) (01/07/91)
In article <1091900009@cdp> ddulmage@cdp.UUCP writes: > >>Hi, I'd like to get an implementation of Renderman. Can anyone advise >>me on availability? >> >I believe that the new Autodesk 3D studio is based on Renderman. Check with >your local AutoCad dealer over there, I don't really know if it is in >distribution yet.. Autodesk 3D Studio can create RenderMan files, but isn't "based on" RenderMan. You might be thinking of AutoShade Version 2 with Autodesk RenderMan, which _does_ include a RenderMan renderer (on PCs, I might add). Also, keep in mind that "RenderMan" is a method of describing 3D scenes, not a program in itself. It's analogous to DXF for CAD or PostScript for page description. For more info, check out "The RenderMan Companion" by Steve Upstill, published by Addison-Wesley. This book gives a great overview of RenderMan's potential. :::::::::::: Jeremy Dashe ::::/ \:::: jdashe@Autodesk.COM "I don't really feel any different :::/ /\ \::: (415) 332-2344 from other people... I just notice ::/ / \ \:: the funny looks they give me." :/ / /\ \ \: :::::::::::: Autodesk, Inc.
blair@pyro.ei.dupont.com (Grant Blair) (01/07/91)
In article <2490@motcsd.csd.mot.com> lance@motcsd.csd.mot.com (lance.norskog) writes: >toby@r2.cs.man.ac.uk (Toby Howard) writes: > >>Hi, I'd like to get an implementation of Renderman. Can anyone advise me on >>availability? > >Yes, it's out for the Mac. Renderman by itself is a library; you can >trace off all library interactions to a .rib file, and replay that file >with a program that reads the .rib (Renderman Intermediate Something) >file and does all the library calls again. > >Pixar is working on something called Gallery, which is a cute front end with >lots of pre-defined stuff so you can make pictures without writing C code. >Obligatory Mac Flame: On the Mac, this is a true blessing. > >It's extremely slow. Pixar has something else called WireMan (??) >which just does wire-frames and is real-time. You code with Wire-Man >and then render with RenderMan. > >Lance I'd like to add my two cents' worth here: I use Pixar's MacRenderMan. The way I use it is in the following manner: using a text editor, I construct a RIB file of commands which are then parsed and rendered my MacRenderMan. Of course it's slow - it runs on a Macintosh. But the output is very pleasing. Then I send my TIFF output file to my 4CAST color printer and it prints a very pretty picture. Grant. -- +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+ |Grant C Blair, DuPont Imaging Systems, Newark, DE 19702, USA | |blair@pyro.ei.dupont.com (192.58.195.64) (302)-733-9533 | +-----------------------------------------------------------------------------+
eliot@pixar.uucp (Eliot Smyrl) (01/08/91)
In article <2490@motcsd.csd.mot.com> lance@motcsd.csd.mot.com (lance.norskog) writes: >toby@r2.cs.man.ac.uk (Toby Howard) writes: > >>Hi, I'd like to get an implementation of Renderman. Can anyone advise me on >>availability? > >Yes, it's out for the Mac. Renderman by itself is a library; you can As mentioned in Jeremy Dashe's previous posting, "RenderMan" is a scene description standard intended for the interface between modelers and renderers. Pixar's implementation of this standard, PhotoRealistic RenderMan, is available on Mac, PC, Sun 3, Sun 4 (SparcStation), and SGI 4D series machines. Contact Pixar at Pixar 1001 W. Cutting Blvd. Richmond, CA 94804 USA (415) 236-4000 fax: (415) 236-0388 (Please don't e-mail me). >It's extremely slow. Pixar has something else called WireMan (??) >which just does wire-frames and is real-time. You code with Wire-Man >and then render with RenderMan. It's actually called "VectRMan", and it comes with the PhotoRealistic RenderMan package on all machines mentioned above. It's not real-time (in the sense of SGI realtime wireframes, for example), but it is fast. And whether PRMan is "extremely slow" is debatable :-) >Lance Eliot Smyrl Member of Technical Staff Pixar {ucbvax,sun}!pixar!eliot
dean@coplex.UUCP (Dean Brooks) (01/10/91)
>In article <2490@motcsd.csd.mot.com> lance@motcsd.csd.mot.com (lance.norskog) writes: >>Yes, it's out for the Mac. Renderman by itself is a library; you can >>trace off all library interactions to a .rib file, and replay that file >>with a program that reads the .rib (Renderman Intermediate Something) >>file and does all the library calls again. Excuse my ignorance of the subject, but is Renderman a commercial only library? I assume that something so powerful would never be available in the public domain... There are several raytrace libraries available, but few live up to the photorealism that Renderman has been proven to produce. -- dean@coplex.UUCP Dean A. Brooks Copper Electronics, Inc. Louisville, Ky UUCP: !uunet!coplex!dean
lance@motcsd.csd.mot.com (lance.norskog) (01/11/91)
dean@coplex.UUCP (Dean Brooks) writes: [ My deathless prose deleted ] >Excuse my ignorance of the subject, but is Renderman a commercial only >library? >... >There are several raytrace libraries >available, but few live up to the photorealism that Renderman has >been proven to produce. Yes, it's a product of Pixar. Pixar is a spin-off of the Lucasfilm empire, and is part-owned by Steve Jobs. Renderman started as Lucasfilm's inhouse movie graphics production system. Renderman is not a ray-tracer. It uses the Reyes (render everything you ever saw) algorithm. This is described in various SIGGRAPHs from the mid-80's. I haven't studied it, but apparently the algorithm is to break all elements of the scene into "micro-polygons" smaller than a pixel. Then, apply radiosity, ray-tracing, and arcane tricks to the resulting humongous collection of tiny graphics chunks. Since everything is smaller than a pixel, simple algorithms and approximations suffice where complex algorithms don't work very well on larger objects. Also, the resulting dataset partitions well over parallel processors. Lance
robert@texas.asd.sgi.com (Robert Skinner) (01/12/91)
In article <2528@motcsd.csd.mot.com>, lance@motcsd.csd.mot.com (lance.norskog) writes: |> dean@coplex.UUCP (Dean Brooks) writes: |> |> [ My deathless prose deleted ] |> |> >Excuse my ignorance of the subject, but is Renderman a commercial only |> >library? |> >... |> >There are several raytrace libraries |> >available, but few live up to the photorealism that Renderman has |> >been proven to produce. |> |> Renderman is not a ray-tracer. No, sorry; once again from the beginning: Renderman is a scene *specification* interface. It is independent of and separate from the actual rendering algorithm. Renderman provides a powerful way of specifiying scene geometry, textures, special effects such as motion blur and reflection or environment mapping, camera effects, and filtering. Anyone may implement any kind of renderer that complies with the Renderman inteface: realtime, scanline, ray tracer, or crayons. A render may choose not to implement portions of the specification. For example, a realtime renderer might not implement filtering for antialiasing. A scanline renderer might not implement reflection or environment mapping. Once again, in summary: Renderman is a scene description language. Renderman is not a renderer. |> It uses the Reyes (render everything you |> ever saw) algorithm. This is described in various SIGGRAPHs from the |> mid-80's. I haven't studied it, but apparently the algorithm is to |> break all elements of the scene into "micro-polygons" smaller than |> a pixel. Then, apply radiosity, ray-tracing, and arcane tricks |> to the resulting humongous collection of tiny graphics chunks. |> |> Since everything is smaller than a pixel, simple algorithms and |> approximations suffice where complex algorithms don't work very well |> on larger objects. Also, the resulting dataset partitions well over |> parallel processors. |> |> Lance What you are describing is a Renderman compliant renderer that Pixar sells. You summarize it pretty well, except that there is no ray-tracing or radiosity in the Reyes implementations described at Siggraph. Instead, the talented people at Pixar use a host of "arcane tricks" (like reflection mapping) that simulate things that ray tracers do (like reflections). If you look closely at Reyes images, like the one in Siggraph Proc '87, you will see reflections, but not reflections of reflections. Robert Skinner robert@sgi.com The better is the enemy of the good.
mingliu@athena.mit.edu (Minghsun Liu) (01/14/91)
I read in the Jan. issue of Byte that several software developers are working to incorporate the ability to produce RIB file into their modeler products. Is there a modeler that is capabale of produce RIB file on the market today? Thanx, Minghsun Liu <mingliu@athena.mit.edu>
erich@eye.com (Eric Haines) (01/14/91)
In article <1991Jan12.033252.27767@odin.corp.sgi.com> robert@sgi.com writes: >No, sorry; once again from the beginning: > >Renderman is a scene *specification* interface. >It is independent of and separate from the actual rendering algorithm. >Renderman provides a powerful way of specifiying scene geometry, >textures, special effects such as motion blur and reflection or >environment mapping, camera effects, and filtering. > >Anyone may implement any kind of renderer that complies with the >Renderman inteface: realtime, scanline, ray tracer, or crayons. A >render may choose not to implement portions of the specification. For >example, a realtime renderer might not implement filtering for >antialiasing. A scanline renderer might not implement reflection or >environment mapping. RenderMan is indeed a scene description language, and a very good one at that. However, to say that it is implementation neutral is not true in all cases. Some of the language constructs require certain algorithms. Understandably, RenderMan reflects Pixar's research developments. For example, the RiMakeShadow() call makes a shadow map (a la Reeves, Salesin, & Cook's SIGGRAPH '87 "Rendering Antialiased Shadows with Depth Maps"), which is a very specific shadowing algorithm developed at Pixar. Support for radiosity, for example, is open-ended and minimal (the "illuminance" statement), probably because not that much research on this topic was done at Pixar at the time. Mostly I like the spec, (certainly it's magnitudes better than something like NFF, that's dead sure,) but it is not fully neutral to what implementation you choose. Some of it implies certain algorithms, and does not easily support others. This is not really a criticism (I'd be amazed if any language ever comes out that is perfectly neutral and can easily accomodate any new algorithms developed), just something that should be made clear. I don't think I'd want to be limited to the spec as a researcher, though it would be a nice starting point from which to build. However, a full implementation of RenderMan will probably get the job done for most people's rendering needs at this point. By the way, has anyone other than Pixar developed any non-trivial implementation of RenderMan (i.e. trivial == scan-line polygons only, no shadows, with all the other features unimplemented)? Just curious. Eric Haines
kelvin@nthropy.uucp (Kelvin Thompson) (01/16/91)
In article <1991Jan12.033252.27767@odin.corp.sgi.com> robert@sgi.com writes: > >Renderman is a scene *specification* interface. >It is independent of and separate from the actual rendering algorithm. Actually, Pixar wants to have it both ways. They call it a "Scene Description Interface," but they own the trademark on the name and have total, arbitrary control over use of the name. For example, the name of their *renderer* is "PhotoRealistic RenderMan." So if you use "RenderMan" as a shorthand name for their rendering product, then "RenderMan" refers to a renderer that happens to comply with the "RenderMan" interface. And they seem to prohibit anybody else to use "RenderMan" in the same sense. From their documentation: "No-one may refer to or call a product or program which did not originate with Pixar a 'RenderMan program' or 'RenderMan modeler' or 'RenderMan renderer'." So I presume you can't call your own renderer "Hewlett-Packard RenderMan" or "Silicon Graphics RenderMan". >Anyone may implement any kind of renderer that complies with the >Renderman inteface: realtime, scanline, ray tracer, or crayons. Maybe not. You have to obtain written permission from Pixar to market such a product. On the one hand they say that anybody can obtain such a written license. But they also say: "Anyone that creates a computer program that includes any of the procedure calls from RenderMan...may refer to the program as 'using' or 'compatible with' the RenderMan interface, IF THAT STATEMENT IS ACCURATE." [my caps; some paraphrasing] Seems to me that last phrase gives Pixar room to yank permission if you don't have a complete implementation. Sounds like the good folk at Pixar have been spending too much time in the company of lawyers. (Wasn't it just a couple of months ago that somesuch person as A.R. Smith got caught complaining that "software patents and copyrights are stifling innovation" at the same time that Pixar was locking up the patent on jitter sampling?) -- -- Kelvin Thompson, Nth Graphics, Ltd. kelvin@nth.com nthropy!kelvin@cs.utexas.edu
robert@texas.asd.sgi.com (Robert Skinner) (01/17/91)
In article <1991Jan15.213216.14138@nthropy.uucp>, kelvin@nthropy.uucp (Kelvin Thompson) writes: |> In article <1991Jan12.033252.27767@odin.corp.sgi.com> robert@sgi.com writes: |> > |> >Renderman is a scene *specification* interface. |> >It is independent of and separate from the actual rendering algorithm. |> |> Actually, Pixar wants to have it both ways. They call it a "Scene |> Description Interface," but they own the trademark on the name and |> have total, arbitrary control over use of the name. |> Kelvin points out some valid points about how Pixar owns and controls the way the name "RenderMan" is used. I wasn't aware of this. |> >Anyone may implement any kind of renderer that complies with the |> >Renderman inteface: realtime, scanline, ray tracer, or crayons. |> |> Maybe not. You have to obtain written permission from Pixar to |> market such a product. On the one hand they say that anybody |> can obtain such a written license. But they also say: |> |> "Anyone that creates a computer program that includes any of |> the procedure calls from RenderMan...may refer to the program |> as 'using' or 'compatible with' the RenderMan interface, IF |> THAT STATEMENT IS ACCURATE." [my caps; some paraphrasing] |> |> Seems to me that last phrase gives Pixar room to yank permission |> if you don't have a complete implementation. Again, Kelvin is correct. As some of my coworkers have pointed, the way Pixar is now interpreting "compatible", excludes all but the most complete implementations. |> |> Sounds like the good folk at Pixar have been spending too much time |> in the company of lawyers. (Wasn't it just a couple of months ago |> that somesuch person as A.R. Smith got caught complaining that |> "software patents and copyrights are stifling innovation" at the |> same time that Pixar was locking up the patent on jitter sampling?) Yes, sad, but true. My posting reflected my understanding of the *spirit* of RenderMan when it was defining. In fact, Pat Hanrahan compares it directly with PostScript, a "page specification language". Its too bad that noble intentions get warped when viewed through the corporate money-glasses. I should hope that this doesn't deter others from implementing public domain renderers and ray tracers that use RenderMan as input. That would seem like an ideal way to make all of our scene descriptions portable, and would go a long way toward helping us compare the relative merits of various renders. |> |> -- |> -- Kelvin Thompson, Nth Graphics, Ltd. |> kelvin@nth.com nthropy!kelvin@cs.utexas.edu Robert Skinner robert@sgi.com An overheard conversation: "Mach was the greatest intellectual fraud in the last ten years." "What about X?" "I said `intellectual' "
katefans@world.std.com (Chris'n'Vickie of Chicago) (01/23/91)
Chris here, Minghsun Liu asked: > I read in the Jan. issue of Byte that several software developers are > working to incorporate the ability to produce RIB file into their > modeler products. Is there a modeler that is capable of produce RIB > file on the market today? Well the ones that I know right off the top of my head are: VIDI for the Mac either "Super" or "Swivel" 3-D for the Mac VGA-Topas for the PC This is a new 8-bit version of AT&T's Topas that could serve as a very nice front end for PC RenderMan. VGA-Topas can render to 8 bits for test rendering, and then output a .RIP file for final output. Digital Arts is close to having a fully RenderMan compliant modeler and renderer. Currently the animation part of the program outputs a "pseudo-renderman" file called a ".rip" file. PIXAR states that hierarchy and complex transformations are the domain of modeling programs, but these motions have to be reduced to simple "translations" and "rotations" for the RenderMan file. So, how do we pass these complex motions to the renderer for motion blur calculations? --------------------------------------------------------------------------- Eric Haines asked: > By the way, has anyone other than Pixar developed any non-trivial > implementation of RenderMan (i.e. trivial == scan-line polygons only, no > shadows, with all the other features unimplemented)? Just curious. Digital Arts (see above) As I understand it, the problem is that the renderer can safely ignore any rendering specs that it can't handle (ray-tracing, displacement, etc.), but it _must_ properly render every type of geometry in the specification, patches, quadrics, NURBS, and all. I guess this would include trimmed NURBS up to 20th order. Sheesh. -------------------------------------------------------------------------- Paul Crowley writes: >> Has anyone done any work on making things look dirty and worn? >> Everything in the computer-graphic world is shiny and new. and Randy Brown replied: > There is a bowling alley shot that I believe Tom Porter did for Pixar for > a poster advertising RenderMan. The bowling pins looked pretty marked up. > It's true, though, that even computer-generated imperfections usually look > too perfect. The marks were put on with a texture map of random black marks used two different ways; first as an ordinary texture (image) map and also as a displacement map. It might seem kind of dumb, but if you want dirty, beat-up things simply _scan_ a dirty beat-up thing. Try prying up a well-trod floor tile. Use that as a texture or bump map, or as a displacement map if you're lucky enough to have it. Displacement mapping is _wonderful_! I've made an ice- cream cone that I'm quite proud of.... -------------------------------------------------------------------------- About the Pixar patents thing - motion blur is one of the greatest competitive advantages Pixar has over every one else in the commercial animation world. I don't begrudge Pixar holding back this one thing when I think how many advances they have introduced to my field. To my knowledge Pixar has had only two products, the (now defunct) rendering engine (and software for it), and RenderMan. I don't know how they've managed to remain in business. You can't run a company like a university. Give'em a break. Chris Williams katefans@chinet.chi.net Digital Arts *** TDI Explore *** TOPAS *** Video Toaster *** RenderMan (soon)
pdbourke@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Bourke) (03/23/91)
Is anyone using/doing things with RenderMan? Is there another group where RenderMan is discussed?
chris@ncmicro.lonestar.org (Chris Arps) (03/26/91)
I just got the Autoshade 2.0 from Autodesk and it includes a renderman interface. It includes the ability to write your own shaders in C format and compile them for use by the renderer. No C compiler is needed as the shader takes care of the interpretation/translation of the C source shader file. I will be trying to model mechanical parts and will post images/movies to alt.binaries.multimedia when I get some more experience using renderman. -- Chris Arps ***10 NEW PUPPIES!!!***** *New Music*SONIC YOUTH*SUICIDAL TEND* NC/Scientific Software, Musican, *GARY NEUMAN*K. SCHULZE*PETER HAMILL* Animator, 4 Dogs,2 Birds,1 cat,1 fish *Old Music*SPIRIT*MMANN*VDGG*HENDRIX "I think this net is giving me the horn!" - Derek and Clive
pdbourke@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (Paul David Bourke) (04/24/91)
I have not yet talked to the local agents regarding RenderMan for a Silicon Graphics 4D/240 but I thought it might be an idea to see if anyone on the net has experience with this product, where one gets it from, what it costs, etc... -- +---------------------------------------------------------------------------+ | | | Paul D Bourke pdbourke@ccu1.aukuni.ac.nz (130.216.1.5) |