alan@herman.UUCP (Alan Kiecker) (01/10/87)
Please, first accept my most humble apologies if this is not the correct
newsgroup to post this request. We don't subscribe to all the newsgroups
and, of the ones we do get, this one appeared to be the most appropriate.
One of our directors is on an advisory board to one of our state colleges.
Currently the college is using a VAX VMS system, but is considering moving
over to UNIX. He has been asked why it would be beneficial for the students
to learn UNIX; i.e. why should the college bother to convert. If anyone has
any comments, I would appreciate it, and will forward them on to our
director.
(Yeah, I know that UNIX is the greatest thing since [ ... insert your own
favorite here ...], but what are the REAL reasons that a college would
want its students to learn UNIX).
In advance, I thank any and all who may be so inclined to respond.
--------------------------------------------------------------------------
Al Kiecker UUCP: mecc!herman!alan
Unisys - Computer Systems Div. ihnp4!{bonnie,clyde}!herman!alan
Eagan,MN mecc!emspxnx!alan
(612)681-6475bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) (01/11/87)
From: alan@herman.UUCP (Alan Kiecker) >One of our directors is on an advisory board to one of our state colleges. >Currently the college is using a VAX VMS system, but is considering moving >over to UNIX. He has been asked why it would be beneficial for the students >to learn UNIX; i.e. why should the college bother to convert. If anyone has >any comments, I would appreciate it, and will forward them on to our >director. First off, the question is not phrased all that well. Do the students actually plan on "using" UNIX to actually study other things like programming, compiler design, numerical analysis etc or is the plan to "learn UNIX"? Well, there's a subtlety there somewhere. Here's my list anyhow: 1. Business perspective - Unix offers the college "vendor independence", particularly after the first change. Whereas VMS is sold only by DEC (and at a hefty cost for both hardware and software) there are literally dozens of vendors selling UNIX systems ranging from PCs the students can buy for their homes to the largest systems on earth. This trend is expected to accelerate in the near future. This means that this and future acquisitions can be considered competitively and better matched with the price and performance needs of both the institution and the students. 2. Industry/University Relations - you can re-read #1 and consider what this may mean in terms of involvement between the college and interests of those dozens of vendors (and their customers) in regards research, internships etc. 3. Job Perspectives - I invite you to pick up the Sunday employment section of a major newspaper (try the Boston Globe) and make a hash mark every time you see a UNIX position and others. It should be revealing. Honeywell noted this week they were introducing a new UNIX system because 67% of all new US Govt RFPs are requiring UNIX. 4. Academic considerations - Unix has been highly praised for its consistent goals based upon innovative principles of software engineering and design. VMS is expensive. 5. Commonality - Over 90% of all CS departments in the US use UNIX. This is most reflected in the number of texts available, check out any large college bookstore and compare the number of titles available in various computing subjects that are available either on UNIX "the O/S", UNIX as an application base, a compiler development environment, a systems environment or related (eg. Franz Lisp, UCB Pascal, C, ICON, modern networking.) Try to find VMS books... 6. Manuals - The full set of UNIX manuals is readily available and inexpensive (a very complete set should cost around $100, a more than adequate set probably less half that.) In addition to this are many tutorials, self-help etc books available in most bookstores. VMS manual sets are several times more expensive and not readily available. I've never seen a tutorial or self-help type book on VMS in the popular press tho it's possible there is one available, anything is possible. 7. Personal Development - UNIX is available for the home and promises to be more so in the very near future, this will almost certainly never be true for VMS. Although one can argue that this would tend one towards MS/DOS it hardly fulfills all the other goals (you didn't ask about MS/DOS anyhow.) 8. Faculty hiring - If 90% of all CS depts use UNIX there must be a few people out there available to teach it. 9. Future - I'll make the brash prediction here that VMS has around 2-5 years (max) left. I don't consider it very responsible to teach students a system who's days are numbered. The VAX line itself (which VMS is hopelessly tied to) seems to be nearing the end of its useful life span. 10. UNIX has better games :-) Cheers. -Barry Shein, Boston University
garry@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Garry Wiegand) (01/11/87)
Oh here we go to the wars again! A lot of what Barry says is perfectly true, but allow me to edit a few: In a recent article bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) wrote: >From: alan@herman.UUCP (Alan Kiecker) >>One of our directors is on an advisory board to one of our state colleges. >>Currently the college is using a VAX VMS system, but is considering moving >>over to UNIX... >... > > 1. Business perspective - Unix offers the college "vendor > independence", particularly after the first change. Whereas > VMS is sold only by DEC (and at a hefty cost for both hardware > and software)... Unix licenses and source are derived only from AT&T and there is no "vendor independence" for the software (though there's rumors of new Unixae...) If you mean "it runs on more CPUs", this is assuredly true. "Hefty cost": Last time I had need to inquire, commercial Unix for large machines was priced comparably to commercial VMS. *Both* big $$$$. And I thought AT&T was going to stop giving free Unixes to universities. Can anybody comment? > 2. Industry/University Relations - true > 3. Job Perspectives - I invite you to pick up the Sunday > employment section of a major newspaper (try the Boston Globe) > and make a hash mark every time you see a UNIX position and > others. It should be revealing... possibly true - I don't get the Globe. (I *thought* the most popular was something called "OS/MVS" :-) > > 4. Academic considerations - Unix has been highly praised > for its consistent goals based upon innovative principles > of software engineering and design. VMS is expensive. The Unix kernel is excellently designed. FLAME ON The Unix utilities, from a high-quality software-engineering point of view, are trash. Which what the students have to contend with. FLAME OFF You're repeating yourself about "expensive". > 5. Commonality - Over 90% of all CS departments in the US > use UNIX...[describes Unix-related books]... Try to find VMS books... CS - true (Unix was free for years - excellent marketing move) Books - true. But not very interesting. The Unix utilities that are well-enough written that someone can actually document them seem to be well-enough written that they also run fine under VMS when I try them. > 6. Manuals - The full set of UNIX manuals is readily available > and inexpensive (a very complete set should cost around $100, > a more than adequate set probably less half that.) ... > VMS manual sets are several times more... > expensive and not readily available. I've never seen a tutorial > or self-help type book on VMS in the popular press... Not fair. The Unix manuals are cheap because they: 1) Are cryptic and obscure, 2) Are not kept up-to-date, 3) Contain no examples, 4) Contain no index, 5) Assume that you're a wizard. DEC publishes a number of "tutorial and self-help" books -- there aren't the popular press books partly because the original manufacturer has acted responsibly and published them itself. After all, would you prefer to buy a "Guide to programming in Fortran on XXX" or "Guide to Text Editing" from the manufacturer or from some unknown hacker author? > 7. Personal Development - UNIX is available for the home and > promises to be more so in the very near future, this will > almost certainly never be true for VMS.... true (although personal uVAXes are getting closer and closer...) > 8. Faculty hiring - If 90% of all CS depts use UNIX there must > be a few people out there available to teach it. true. But the professors I've encountered avoid at all costs discussing practicalities like "talking gracefully to the system", so their presumed expertise won't help the students. > 9. Future - I'll make the brash prediction here that VMS has > around 2-5 years (max) left. I don't consider it very responsible > to teach students a system who's days are numbered. The VAX line > itself (which VMS is hopelessly tied to) seems to be nearing the > end of its useful life span. yes, there are indeed starting to be rumors around of what's next - I'm looking forward to it eagerly! Unix is now 15 years old, VMS is now 8 years old, it's most certainly time to get on to the next generation! > 10. UNIX has better games :-) true I've tried to limit myself to saying which of your reasons for changing I don't consider valid; I haven't gone into all the obvious reasons for *not* changing (the original poster didn't ask for them.) But I will mention one: well-thought-out and graceful user interfaces are very important to me, and I suspect as time goes on they will become more important to the rest of the world too. It *pains* me for students to be subjected to Unix first, with commands and error messages that read like modem noise, and for them thus never to be aware that the user interface is something anybody considers worth worrying about. Enough said. > -Barry Shein, Boston University garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu) PS - I'm looking forward to our new Cornell/Dec pricing agreement - they're bundling in bunches of interesting compilers and layered products for a cheap flat price.
mac@esl.UUCP (Mike McNamara) (01/13/87)
->>In a recent article bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) wrote: ->>From: alan@herman.UUCP (Alan Kiecker) ->>>One of our directors is on an advisory board to one of our state colleges. ->>>Currently the college is using a VAX VMS system, but is considering moving ->>>over to UNIX... ->>... ->> ->> 6. Manuals - The full set of UNIX manuals is readily available ->> and inexpensive (a very complete set should cost around $100, ->> a more than adequate set probably less half that.) ... ->> VMS manual sets are several times more... ->> expensive and not readily available. I've never seen a tutorial ->> or self-help type book on VMS in the popular press... ->> -> And Garry Wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu) commented: ->>Not fair. The Unix manuals are cheap because they: ->> ->> 1) Are cryptic and obscure, ->> 2) Are not kept up-to-date, ->> 3) Contain no examples, ->> 4) Contain no index, ->> 5) Assume that you're a wizard. ->> ->>DEC publishes a number of "tutorial and self-help" books -- there aren't ->>the popular press books partly because the original manufacturer has acted ->>responsibly and published them itself. After all, would you prefer to buy ->>a "Guide to programming in Fortran on XXX" or "Guide to Text Editing" from ->>the manufacturer or from some unknown hacker author? ->> -> One of the best things Hewlett Packard & Sun Microsystems have done -> for Unix is rewrite and add to the documentation set. The -> particularily valuable additions these companies have made is to -> write beginners' guides. I have recommended these guides to new users -> of machines like Valids, or other unix based systems. -> -> Perhaps the strongest need that exists in unix, however, is not another -> round of "Introduction to the Unix Shell", but rather a complete -> rewrite of the Manual set, so that users can find those utilities -> we are always seeing source code poping up for in net.sources; RTFM -> is just too difficult. -> -> Of course, I personally, would be much more interested in working on -> implementing Unix on a heterogeneous collection of processors... -> -> So, ATT, Berkeley, get together a bunch of Technical writers and -> document the d**m thing!! -> ->> 10. UNIX has better games :-) ->> ->>true -> -Barry Shein, Boston University ->> ->>garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu) ->> Michael Mc Namara ESL Incorporated ARPA: mac%esl@lll-lcc.ARPA -- Michael Mc Namara ESL Incorporated ARPA: mac%esl@lll-lcc.ARPA
dalem@hpfcph.HP.COM ( Dale McCluskey) (01/14/87)
[discussion of UNIX vs. VMS manuals, and why one should learn UNIX]
Two comments. First, while UNIX manuals aren't designed with beginners in
mind, they DO tell you a great deal that you will have trouble finding in
VMS manuals - file formats, for instance. Second, UNIX is a fairly open
system that encourages experimenting. This is aided by the information
available in the manuals.
It is also very flexible. An example of this is that one could write a
shell that would run on UNIX and look like DCL (VMS's shell), but you
would have a pretty tough time doing the reverse.
Dale McCluskey
{hplabs,ihnp4}!hpfcla!dalemrob@cwruecmp.UUCP (rob robertson) (01/16/87)
In article <3353@bu-cs.BU.EDU> bzs@bu-cs.BU.EDU (Barry Shein) writes: > >From: alan@herman.UUCP (Alan Kiecker) >>He has been asked why it would be beneficial for the students >>to learn UNIX; i.e. why should the college bother to convert. If anyone has >>any comments, I would appreciate it, and will forward them on to our >>director. > > 3. Job Perspectives - I invite you to pick up the Sunday > employment section of a major newspaper (try the Boston Globe) > and make a hash mark every time you see a UNIX position and > others. It should be revealing. Barry, do not attempt this in Cleveland, kingdom of Big Blue. If you can get 3 ads mentioning Unix your lucky. > 5. Commonality - Over 90% of all CS departments in the US > use UNIX. This is most reflected in the number of texts > available, check out any large college bookstore and compare > the number of titles available in various computing subjects > that are available either on UNIX "the O/S", UNIX as an > application base, a compiler development environment, a systems > environment or related (eg. Franz Lisp, UCB Pascal, C, ICON, > modern networking.) Try to find VMS books... They even have one out on how to edit (is vi THAT cryptic?) > 8. Faculty hiring - If 90% of all CS depts use UNIX there must > be a few people out there available to teach it. All of our departmental machines run UNIX. However, I know one or two professors here who can't even change there passwords without asking. this is more of a comment on the hiring policies here than anything else. > 9. Future - I'll make the brash prediction here that VMS has > around 2-5 years (max) left. I don't consider it very responsible > to teach students a system who's days are numbered. The VAX line > itself (which VMS is hopelessly tied to) seems to be nearing the > end of its useful life span. Hey, fortran and cobol will still be around for another 10, why can't vms still be in 2-5. > 10. UNIX has better games :-) agreed. >Cheers. ciao! rob Case Western Reserve University
rob@cwruecmp.UUCP (rob robertson) (01/16/87)
In article <1993@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu> garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu writes: >Not fair. The Unix manuals are cheap because they: > > 1) Are cryptic and obscure, > 2) Are not kept up-to-date, > 3) Contain no examples, > 4) Contain no index, > 5) Assume that you're a wizard. > >DEC publishes a number of "tutorial and self-help" books -- there aren't >the popular press books partly because the original manufacturer has acted >responsibly and published them itself. After all, would you prefer to buy >a "Guide to programming in Fortran on XXX" or "Guide to Text Editing" from >the manufacturer or from some unknown hacker author? My memories of programming on VMS consist of stuggling to balance 4-5 giant VMS orange binders of documentation. Not knowing where anything is (the index is fairly useless). Having to figure out bugs by myself. With Unix, the manual for the most part is in one complete volume. It has a permuted index (a real help). And manuals are online (your mileage may vary), good for quick lookups when the hardcopy manual is across the room. There is also a bug section in the manual to describe known bugs. With Unix, I have a less cluttered desk, easy information lookup, and I don't beat my head against the wall as much about unknown bugs in the system. As far as tutorial and self help books, with unix you have a selection some good, some bad, but with vms you have only what dec gives you. -rob
cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (01/16/87)
In article <3700002@hpfcph.HP.COM> dalem@hpfcph.HP.COM ( Dale McCluskey) writes: >Two comments. First, while UNIX manuals aren't designed with beginners in >mind, they DO tell you a great deal that you will have trouble finding in >VMS manuals - file formats, for instance. Second, UNIX is a fairly open >system that encourages experimenting. This is aided by the information >available in the manuals. hmm, I seem to remember seeing file formats, data representations, and lots of other goodies in my manual set....and at least the vms guides tell you exactly what the program will do (ever try to actually figure out how to use badsect or bad144 from their manual pages????) And lets face it, to really experiment you have to read the code anyway for both systems :-) > >It is also very flexible. An example of this is that one could write a >shell that would run on UNIX and look like DCL (VMS's shell), but you >would have a pretty tough time doing the reverse. funny, I know of now dcl shells for unix, but I know of two vms 'shells' which emulate unix (including pipes, redirection...) and only one of the two is from dec (the other is public domain) and at least two full unix emulators (more than just the shell, libraries, system calls, etc) for vms - has anyone yet seen a vms emulator for unix ??? :-) -ed cetron center for engineering design cetron%utah-ced@utah-cs.arpa cetron@ced.utah.edu cetron@utahcca.bitnet
rbl@nitrex.UUCP (01/16/87)
<Excluding the original article to save net bandwidth> I taught UNIX in a Computer Applications graduate program (since early 1970's) before joining industry and still serve on a couple of college advisory committees. In addition to Barry Shein's excellent comments already posted about Why UNIX, there's at least one other factor: UNIX, with it's pipe feature and the excellent Software Tools books to back it up, serves well in teaching students how to quickly analyze an end-user's real needs and quickly prototype a solution. The fast analysis/prototype cycle results in systems which more closely meet user needs. Of course, there are other neat software concepts that may have originated within UNIX and C, but they are now more widely available. "The largest impediment to technology transfer (into industry) may be the existing skill set of the people already there." Rob Lake decvax!cwruecmp!nitrex!rbl cbatt!nitrex!rbl Disclaimer: The above opinions reflect my own opinion, expressed under my adjunct academic appointment's freedom of expression and in no way reflect any opinion of my employer.
henry@utzoo.UUCP (Henry Spencer) (01/17/87)
> ... After all, would you prefer to buy > a "Guide to programming in Fortran on XXX" or "Guide to Text Editing" from > the manufacturer or from some unknown hacker author? Better still, from some known-to-be-good hacker author. Given only the choice you present, probably from some unknown hacker author, since it is a well-known law of nature :-) that manufacturers are incapable of writing inexpensive readable documentation. What I've seen on VMS -- admittedly I have not looked hard, since neither VMS nor VAXen are cost-effective any more -- has not been an exception. -- Legalize Henry Spencer @ U of Toronto Zoology freedom! {allegra,ihnp4,decvax,pyramid}!utzoo!henry
chris@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek) (01/18/87)
In article <4171@utah-cs.UUCP> cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (Edward J Cetron) writes: >... I know of now dcl shells for unix, but I know of two vms >'shells' which emulate unix (including pipes, redirection...) ... >and at least two full unix emulators (more than just the shell, >libraries, system calls, etc) for vms - has anyone yet seen a vms >emulator for unix ??? :-) It takes two things to build an emulator for another system: ability and desire. I wonder which is missing? :-) That VMS is able to emulate Unix demonstrates its flexibility. What does the fact that such emulators are used say about VMS's desirability? :-) Small serious note: I doubt Unix would be able to emulate VMS efficiently without at least some minor kernel hacks. There really *are* some good ideas in VMS. Most hardcore Unix hacker will admit this. There are also some really bad ideas. Most hardcore VMS fans will admit this. It works the other way too. Personally, I prefer Unix, but as Kirk said of the tribbles, there is no accounting for tastes. :-) -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7690) UUCP: seismo!mimsy!chris ARPA/CSNet: chris@mimsy.umd.edu
phyllis@sfsup.UUCP (01/18/87)
> Not fair. The Unix manuals are cheap because they: > 1) Are cryptic and obscure, > 2) Are not kept up-to-date, > 3) Contain no examples, > 4) Contain no index, > 5) Assume that you're a wizard. Garry, I object to your characterization of the UNIX manuals. Have you seen the System V Release 3.0 Reference Manuals? They are not cryptic and obscure, there are examples (although they need more), they have indices, and the pages have been heavily edited to take into consideration the level of the user. It's a huge job rewriting all of the documentation, but AT&T's 3B2 documenters have made huge strides and are working hard to continue their improvements. The AT&T 3B2 documentation group also produces several guides, e.g. the System Administrator's Guide, Programmer Guide, and Uer's Guide. If you need more information about any of this documentation, I'm sure I could provide it. Phyllis Eve Bregman ihnp4!attunix!phyllis
robert@Jimi.cs.unlv.edu (Robert Cray) (01/19/87)
In article <3700002@hpfcph.HP.COM> dalem@hpfcph.HP.COM ( Dale McCluskey) writes: >[discussion of UNIX vs. VMS manuals, and why one should learn UNIX] > >Two comments. First, while UNIX manuals aren't designed with beginners in >mind, they DO tell you a great deal that you will have trouble finding in >VMS manuals - file formats, for instance. Second, UNIX is a fairly open VMS does have many file formats, which make things difficult. UNIX has only one, so of course its not hard to find documentation. I agree that if you are used to UNIX manuals, VMS manuals are difficult to get used to, but I have always found what I was looking for. > >It is also very flexible. An example of this is that one could write a >shell that would run on UNIX and look like DCL (VMS's shell), but you >would have a pretty tough time doing the reverse. I was not aware anywone had written a VMS shell (or would want to) for UNIX. There are at least 3 UNIX shells (Eunice, DEC Shell, LBL Tools) available for VMS. It all depends on what you want to do. UNIX is great for software development, VMS is great for production. Both have strengths and weaknesses. It is a waste of time arguing over which one is "better". --robert -- CSNET: robert%jimi.cs.unlv.edu@relay.cs.net UUCP: {sdcrdcf,ihnp4}!otto!jimi!robert seismo!unrvax!tahoe!jimi!robert
rbl@nitrex.UUCP ( Dr. Robin Lake ) (01/19/87)
In: Message-ID: <3700002@hpfcph.HP.COM> >[discussion of UNIX vs. VMS manuals, and why one should learn UNIX] > >Two comments. First, while UNIX manuals aren't designed with beginners in >mind, they DO tell you a great deal that you will have trouble finding in >VMS manuals - file formats, for instance. Second, UNIX is a fairly open >system that encourages experimenting. This is aided by the information >available in the manuals. > Also, there are some things that just seem to be impossible with VMS. We often deal with data files of long (2K bytes +++) lines. We would like to transmit them via a terminal emulation (say, cu) into a VMS file. 1. It is not easy (read "baroque") to create a file on VMS that has a long line length. 2. You can't create the file via a terminal login. VMS just won't take lines longer than some "small" limit (as I recall, 232 bytes) via a port it thinks is a terminal. The "pure" byte stream philosophy of UNIX has been very nice to deal with. The DECShell under VMS can do no better in dealing with this problem than DCL does. Disclaimer: This reflects only my own opinion and not that of my employer. Rob Lake decvax!cwruecmp!nitrex!rbl ihnp4!cbatt!nitrex!rbl
abs@nbc1.UUCP (Andrew Siegel) (01/20/87)
> In article <3700002@hpfcph.HP.COM> dalem@hpfcph.HP.COM ( Dale McCluskey) writes: > funny, I know of no dcl shells for unix, but I know of two vms > 'shells' which emulate unix (including pipes, redirection...) and only > one of the two is from dec (the other is public domain) and at least two > full unix emulators (more than just the shell, libraries, system calls, etc) > for vms - has anyone yet seen a vms emulator for unix ??? :-) > > -ed cetron Kinda shot yourself in the foot, there, Ed. Ever consider that the reason there are no VMS utilities for UNIX is because no one *wants* one? 'Nuff said. -- Andrew Siegel, N2CN NBC Computer Imaging, New York, NY philabs!nbc1!abs (212)664-5776
garry@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Garry Wiegand) (01/20/87)
In a recent article dalem@hpfcph.HP.COM ( Dale McCluskey) wrote: >Two comments. First, while UNIX manuals aren't designed with beginners in >mind, they DO tell you a great deal that you will have trouble finding in >VMS manuals - file formats, for instance. True, sometimes. For a counter-example, try Tar-file format - we just replicated tar onto VMS, and it was surely a nuisance that that format wasn't written down anywhere! DEC used to put more information in about file formats; nowadays it's more of a "need-to-know" - for example, the object-code language is documented heavily (you might be writing a compiler) but the disk home blocks are not ("why would you ever want to know *that*?") Silly people - I want to know *everything*. By the way, the "VMS INTERNALS" book does have lots of good dirt in it. I think we bought ours in the bookstore down the street rather than from DEC... > Second, UNIX is a fairly open >system that encourages experimenting. This is aided by the information >available in the manuals. I assume you're talking about the operating system kernel; there's been times when would have *loved* to have a VMS kernel source license! (hack hack hack...) >It is also very flexible. An example of this is that one could write a >shell that would run on UNIX and look like DCL (VMS's shell), but you >would have a pretty tough time doing the reverse. Not true. I wrote a small Csh for VMS a couple years ago, but the exercise got boring and I stopped. Csh is basically user-level C code, and at that level the abilities of the two systems are nearly indistinguishable - the major one is that VMS is slower to fork. That *is* a nuisance, but if you are a little more clever, you can come out ahead on VMS - just cache and recycle the forked processes. (I've heard rumors of undocumented Unix "kernel hooks" to make the shell run fast; they might be something similar.) garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu)
garry@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Garry Wiegand) (01/20/87)
In a recent article rbl@nitrex.UUCP ( Dr. Robin Lake ) wrote: > UNIX, with it's pipe feature and the excellent Software Tools > books to back it up, serves well in teaching students how to > quickly analyze an end-user's real needs and quickly prototype > a solution. The fast analysis/prototype cycle results in systems... WHAT IN THE HOLY GOOD GOD EARTH DO PIPES HAVE TO DO WITH RAPID PROTOTYPING???? This article sounds like a snow job... growl. garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu)
jc@piaget.UUCP (John Cornelius) (01/20/87)
In article <4171@utah-cs.UUCP> cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (Edward J Cetron) writes: >In article <3700002@hpfcph.HP.COM> dalem@hpfcph.HP.COM ( Dale McCluskey) writes: > >>Two comments. First, while UNIX manuals aren't designed with beginners in > ... > ... > funny, I know of now dcl shells for unix, but I know of two vms >'shells' which emulate unix (including pipes, redirection...) and only >one of the two is from dec (the other is public domain) and at least two >full unix emulators (more than just the shell, libraries, system calls, etc) >for vms - has anyone yet seen a vms emulator for unix ??? :-) __^^^^^^^^^^^^ But, why would you want to? flame/output=NULLDEV:[0,0]/ignore=world/override=permissions/blocksize=0 -- John Cornelius (...!sdcsvax!piaget!jc)
cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (Edward J Cetron) (01/20/87)
In article <197@nbc1.UUCP> abs@nbc1.UUCP (Andrew Siegel) writes: ->> In article <3700002@hpfcph.HP.COM> dalem@hpfcph.HP.COM ( Dale McCluskey) writes: ->> funny, I know of no dcl shells for unix, but I know of two vms ->> 'shells' which emulate unix (including pipes, redirection...) and only ->> one of the two is from dec (the other is public domain) and at least two ->> full unix emulators (more than just the shell, libraries, system calls, etc) ->> for vms - has anyone yet seen a vms emulator for unix ??? :-) ->> ->> -ed cetron -> ->Kinda shot yourself in the foot, there, Ed. -> ->Ever consider that the reason there are no VMS utilities for UNIX is ->because no one *wants* one? Of course no one wants one, once you use VMS you love it so much you never want to leave.... .5:-) and besides, if you want to migrate from VMS to a more compact, faster, more flexible, neater, UNDERSTANDABLE operating system, you move over to RSX-11M+ anyway..... -ed
pavlov@hscfvax.UUCP (01/22/87)
In article <1035@sfsup.UUCP>, phyllis@sfsup.UUCP writes: > > Garry, I object to your characterization of the UNIX manuals. > Have you seen the System V Release 3.0 Reference Manuals? > They are not cryptic and obscure, there are examples (although > they need more), they have indices, and the pages have been > heavily edited to take into consideration the level of the user. Well, I haven't seen them so I can't confirm the above. But I do wish DEC would give it a go along the same lines, with Ultrix. Maybe the day will come when the following line disappears from finger(1) : "The encoding of the gcos field is UCB dependent - it knows that an office '197MC' is '197M Cory Hall', and that '529BE' is '529B Evans Hall' " - nothing against UCB. And it is a nice personal touch. But there are lotsa places where the ink could have been put to better use ... - any correlation to the cancelling of the Titan project (and the reasons for ?) ever -:), greg pavlov, fstrf, amherst, ny
bob@mwhhlaw.UUCP (01/22/87)
> In a recent article rbl@nitrex.UUCP ( Dr. Robin Lake ) wrote: > > UNIX, with it's pipe feature and the excellent Software Tools > > books to back it up, serves well in teaching students how to > > quickly analyze an end-user's real needs and quickly prototype > > a solution. The fast analysis/prototype cycle results in systems... > > WHAT IN THE HOLY GOOD GOD EARTH DO PIPES HAVE TO DO WITH RAPID PROTOTYPING???? > > This article sounds like a snow job... growl. > > garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu) Let's not be too harsh. Redirection of input and output, in conjunction with pipes and existing UNIX filters and tools, does facilitate quick working solutions (i.e. prototypes) for many requirements. The modular approach encouraged by UNIX also makes it easier to fine tune these solutions as the end-user's demands evolve during use of the program. -- Bob Hartley ihnp4!inuxc!mwhhlaw!bob Indianapolis
guy@gorodish.UUCP (01/25/87)
> But I do wish DEC would give it a go along the same lines, with Ultrix. > Maybe the day will come when the following line disappears from finger(1) : > > "The encoding of the gcos field is UCB dependent - it knows > that an office '197MC' is '197M Cory Hall', and that '529BE' > is '529B Evans Hall' " The problem here is not with the manual, the problem is with the program; the correct fix is to take that silly localism out of the program if it's to be distributed as part of anything more formal than a BSD release. The code, and the comment in the manual page, are certainly gone from *our* release.
levy@ttrdc.UUCP (01/26/87)
In article <408@nitrex.UUCP>, rbl@nitrex.UUCP writes: >Also, there are some things that just seem to be impossible with VMS. We >often deal with data files of long (2K bytes +++) lines. We would like >to transmit them via a terminal emulation (say, cu) into a VMS file. >1. It is not easy (read "baroque") to create a file on VMS that has >a long line length. >2. You can't create the file via a terminal login. VMS just won't take >lines longer than some "small" limit (as I recall, 232 bytes) via a port >it thinks is a terminal. To be fair to VMS, the garden variety ~%put in cu also won't work for lines > the UNIX terminal buffer size; neither will it work for files which don't end with the eol character. One has to play tricks with the tty settings. Under the UNIX system, one would likely use UUCP to transfer such files between machines. >The "pure" byte stream philosophy of UNIX has been very nice to deal with. >The DECShell under VMS can do no better in dealing with this problem than >DCL does. Recently (a couple of years ago?), a "stream-LF file format" was added to VMS's endless repertory of file formats. This format lets you have your cake and eat it too with respect to byte-stream I/O, arbitrary seeking, arbitrary "line length", and other things part of the byte stream philosophy of the UNIX system, while still being acceptable as input to all other VMS utilities that expect text files. There is still the nuisance of having to convert other text file formats to the stream-LF format to get full benefits of the byte-stream philosophy when using them with VMS C programs. The implementation of stream IO and seeking under VMS C also leaves a LOT to be desired efficiency-wise (I've seen a 3B2/400 do far better on a CDC WREN than an unloaded VMS VAX 8650 does on an RA81 in applications requiring heavy seeking). >Disclaimer: This reflects only my own opinion and not that of my employer. >Rob Lake >decvax!cwruecmp!nitrex!rbl >ihnp4!cbatt!nitrex!rbl -- ------------------------------- Disclaimer: The views contained herein are | dan levy | my own and are not at all those of my em- | an engihacker @ | ployer or the administrator of any computer | at&t computer systems division | upon which I may hack. | skokie, illinois | -------------------------------- Path: ..!{akgua,homxb,ihnp4,ltuxa,mvuxa, allegra,ulysses,vax135}!ttrdc!levy
rbj@icst-cmr.arpa (01/27/87)
In a recent article dalem@hpfcph.HP.COM ( Dale McCluskey) wrote: >Two comments. First, while UNIX manuals aren't designed with beginners in >mind, they DO tell you a great deal that you will have trouble finding in >VMS manuals - file formats, for instance. True, sometimes. For a counter-example, try Tar-file format - we just replicated tar onto VMS, and it was surely a nuisance that that format wasn't written down anywhere! Try man 5 tar. garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu) (Root Boy) Jim "Just Say Yes" Cottrell <rbj@icst-cmr.arpa>
john@frog.UUCP (01/28/87)
> In a recent article rbl@nitrex.UUCP ( Dr. Robin Lake ) wrote: > > UNIX, with it's pipe feature and the excellent Software Tools > > books to back it up, serves well in teaching students how to > > quickly analyze an end-user's real needs and quickly prototype > > a solution. The fast analysis/prototype cycle results in systems... > > WHAT IN THE HOLY GOOD GOD EARTH DO PIPES HAVE TO DO WITH RAPID PROTOTYPING?? > > This article sounds like a snow job... growl. > > garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu) A quick spelling checker: tr '\t ' '\n' | sort | uniq | comm -23 - /usr/lib/dict/wordlist Took me 3 minutes to write, including fishing around for the manual. Given this, I can try it out, spell a few documents, and discover what I need to add. Eventually I'll reach the point where I ought to code it in C, but by then I'll have a very good idea of how it should work. Note that I used 3 pipes and 4 "Software Tools" that perform limited, precisely describable jobs. -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (617) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw%mit-ccc@MIT-XX.ARPA WITH YOUR MESSAGE ***
cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (01/28/87)
In article <1238@frog.UUCP> john@frog.UUCP (John Woods, Software) writes:
->> In a recent article rbl@nitrex.UUCP ( Dr. Robin Lake ) wrote:
->> > UNIX, with it's pipe feature and the excellent Software Tools
->> > books to back it up, serves well in teaching students how to
->>
->> WHAT IN THE HOLY GOOD GOD EARTH DO PIPES HAVE TO DO WITH RAPID PROTOTYPING??
->>
->> This article sounds like a snow job... growl.
->>
->> garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu)
->
->A quick spelling checker:
->
->tr '\t ' '\n' | sort | uniq | comm -23 - /usr/lib/dict/wordlist
->
->Took me 3 minutes to write, including fishing around for the manual.
->
.....
->Note that I used 3 pipes and 4 "Software Tools" that perform limited,
->precisely describable jobs.
->
hmm, this fascinated me... so I decided to try it, and it worked, and I did
it as written on my VMS machine.... Now, explain to me why if I can do this
on my UNIX machine AND I can do it on my VMS machine, why UNIX is better
than VMS.
-ed cetron
in fact, I then went and tried it on my RSX-11M+ machine, hmmm, worked there
two.....this is getting strange :-)mcvoy@uwvax.UUCP (01/29/87)
In article <4221@utah-cs.UUCP> cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (Edward J Cetron) writes:
[spelling prog w/ lots of parts & pipes]
hmm, this fascinated me... so I decided to try it, and it worked, and I did
it as written on my VMS machine.... Now, explain to me why if I can do this
on my UNIX machine AND I can do it on my VMS machine, why UNIX is better
than VMS.
Well, how about this: pipes, like many other innovative and unique
ideas, were found on Unix first. Pipes, and other tools, are slowly
becoming implemented in other systems, such as yours.
So why is Unix better? Well, tell me, ed, how long have pipes been
available on your machine? Not very long, I'll bet. While you have
been starting to use some of the ideas founded by Unix hackers, those
hackers have not been sitting idle. They're off hacking on something
new. You know, networks, and graphics, and window managers. Stuff you
hear Unix types talking about and wish you had (or would wish you had
if you knew what it was). Unix is good because it's an environment
made for and used by programmers. That encourages new ideas, ideas
that you will (eventually) use.
'Nuff said, I don't want to start any wars, so follow up to me.
--
Larry McVoy mcvoy@rsch.wisc.edu,
{seismo, topaz, harvard, ihnp4, etc}!uwvax!mcvoy
"They're coming soon! Quad-stated guru-gates!"btb@ncoast.UUCP (01/31/87)
How much does dec pay these guys to knock Unix in favor of VMS? VMS is like an advanced MSDOS for minicomputers... Unix is sheer brilliance, simplicity of design & function... Ed Cetron says he did the same as the one-line Unix spelling checker under VMS... on how many lines? With how many options on how many commands? He didn't use pipes, because they don't exist, and if he wanted to do it in the background, he had to add something like spawn/nowait/input=nl: to EACH and every separate command that he used to emulate the Unix one-line command... The Unix user only has to add & to the end of his one-line. I don't have to sell Unix to these non-believers... either they retire, or they will have to learn it within the next 5 years, because in the free market, productivity and standardization are the restoring force, and with this force, Unix has been the single stable eigenstate for the past 10+ years. -- Brad Banko ...!decvax!cwruecmp!ncoast!btb Cleveland, Ohio "The only thing we have to fear on this planet is man." -- Carl Jung, 1875-1961
gwyn@brl-smoke.UUCP (02/01/87)
In article <4221@utah-cs.UUCP> cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (Edward J Cetron) writes: >->tr '\t ' '\n' | sort | uniq | comm -23 - /usr/lib/dict/wordlist > Now, explain to me why if I can do this >on my UNIX machine AND I can do it on my VMS machine, why UNIX is better >than VMS. The only reason you can run this on your VMS system is that all the necessary parts were lifted from UNIX. The early releases of VMS certainly did not support anything of the sort. Actually it rather surprises me that the current release of VMS does. Or are you running the Software Tools VOS or DEC-Shell instead of DCL?
wcs@ho95e.UUCP (02/02/87)
In article <1977@ncoast.UUCP> btb@ncoast.UUCP (Brad Banko) writes: >How much does dec pay these guys to knock Unix in favor of VMS? VMS is >like an advanced MSDOS for minicomputers... Unix is sheer brilliance, >simplicity of design & function... ......... >I don't have to sell Unix to these non-believers... either they retire, or >they will have to learn it within the next 5 years, because in the free >market, productivity and standardization are the restoring force, and with >this force, Unix has been the single stable eigenstate for the past 10+years. Ok, so I like UNIX too, and I' rather not do development on VMS (or --OH, NO--- TSO, or MS-DOS), but VMS does have its good points. In the real world, there's a *lot* of adequate-quality software serving business needs, and while you or I may not think COBOL-written accounting programs are any fun, a lot of businesses need accounting, and it's a lot harder to do high-performance transaction processing on UNIX systems than on VMS. Similarly, for number-crunching, I'd rather have the flexibility of C++ to work in, but there are a lot of heavy-duty F0RTRAN scientific subroutine packages that I'd rather reuse than rewrite, and a lot of scientific programming can be done adequately without good recursive control structures, and nobody's ever claimed f77 was a model of optimum high-speed code generation. While VMS version changes are probably more painful than UNIX version changes, you can change hardware without changing your object code, and that's worth a lot. There are some obvious costs to staying with DEC hardware, but they do a good job of supporting their customers, and that keeps them, and VMS, in business. You know all the disclaimers I'm supposed to add here. -- # Bill Stewart, AT&T Bell Labs 2G-202, Holmdel NJ 1-201-949-0705 ihnp4!ho95c!wcs
rbj@icst-cmr.arpa (02/05/87)
> In a recent article rbl@nitrex.UUCP ( Dr. Robin Lake ) wrote: > > UNIX, with it's pipe feature and the excellent Software Tools > > books to back it up, serves well in teaching students how to > > quickly analyze an end-user's real needs and quickly prototype > > a solution. The fast analysis/prototype cycle results in systems... > > WHAT IN HOLY GOOD GOD EARTH DO PIPES HAVE TO DO WITH RAPID PROTOTYPING?? > > This article sounds like a snow job... growl. > > garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu) Ever hear of `popen'? Or the more general case of setting up the plumbing, then forking and execing a system program. Why write a real program when you can call other ones almost as easy as subroutines? (Root Boy) Jim "Just Say Yes" Cottrell <rbj@icst-cmr.arpa>
mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (02/05/87)
>>>> UNIX, with it's pipe feature and [...] >>> WHAT [...] DO PIPES HAVE TO DO WITH RAPID PROTOTYPING?? >>> This article sounds like a snow job... growl. >> tr '\t ' '\n' | sort | uniq | comm -23 - /usr/lib/dict/wordlist > hmm, this fascinated me... so I decided to try it, and it worked, and > I did it as written on my VMS machine.... Now, explain to me why if > I can do this on my UNIX machine AND I can do it on my VMS machine, > why UNIX is better than VMS. You've changed the question. The original was "what do pipes have to do with rapid prototyping?". Granted, this question arose in a discussion of "why learn UNIX", but the point the example was chosen to illustrate is the one about prototyping. Seems to me that the fact that VMS is lifting ideas from UNIX instead of the other way around says something about which is more useful. der Mouse USA: {ihnp4,decvax,akgua,utzoo,etc}!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse Europe: mcvax!decvax!utcsri!mcgill-vision!mouse ARPAnet: think!mosart!mcgill-vision!mouse@harvard.harvard.edu
dalem@hpfcph.UUCP (02/05/87)
> Ok, so I like UNIX too, and I' rather not do development on VMS (or > --OH, NO--- TSO, or MS-DOS), but VMS does have its good points. Agreed. I'm a UNIX fan, but DEC has done *some* things very well in VMS. [businesses need accounting...] > and it's a lot harder to do high-performance transaction processing on > UNIX systems than on VMS. Why? Dale McCluskey {hplabs,ihnp4}!hpfcla!dalem
PAAAAAR@calstate.bitnet (02/06/87)
In-Reply-To: "John Woods, Software"'s message of 28 Jan 87 03:49:00 GMT > WHAT IN HOLY GOOD GOD EARTH DO PIPES HAVE TO DO WITH RAPID PROTOTYPING?? > > This article sounds like a snow job... growl. > > garry wiegand (garry%cadif-oak@cu-arpa.cs.cornell.edu) In addition to the obvious use of pipes for spell checking and such things it is *not* well known that pipes are an ideal way to prototype any problem which has what Michael Jackson (*not* the dancer!) calls a "structure clash". In JSP (Jackson Structured Programming) a problem with a clash is decomposed into separate programs and data objects linked by data streams. The streams are defined to work *exactly* like pipes. Usually a pipelined solution is a little slow and so JSP typically recodes one or more programs as semi-co-routines by a process called "inversion". These look UGLY but work efficiently. See Bo. Sanden's recent book and articles. Also (inshallah) the book that I will get out with Paul Ross next year (Systems Programming: A Softwrae Engineering Approach) which has several chapters on prototypes and process communication. Also - if anyone needs to invert any C programs or create co-functions in C I have a short m4 macro package that makes the task a little less dirty. Dick Botting, Dept Comp Sci., Cal State U, San Bernardino, CA 92407 PAAAAAR@CCS.CSUSCC.CALSTATE.EDU voice:714-887-7368 modem:714-887-7365 (Silicon Mountain -- where the LA smog stops)
robert@jimi.UUCP (02/06/87)
In article <5585@brl-smoke.ARPA> gwyn@brl.arpa (Doug Gwyn (VLD/VMB) <gwyn>) writes: >In article <4221@utah-cs.UUCP> cetron@utah-cs.UUCP (Edward J Cetron) writes: >>->tr '\t ' '\n' | sort | uniq | comm -23 - /usr/lib/dict/wordlist >> Now, explain to me why if I can do this on my UNIX machine AND I can >> do it on my VMS machine, why UNIX is better than VMS. >The only reason you can run this on your VMS system is that all the >necessary parts were lifted from UNIX. The early releases of VMS >certainly did not support anything of the sort. Actually it rather >surprises me that the current release of VMS does. Or are you >running the Software Tools VOS or DEC-Shell instead of DCL? I have never understood this argument. People are always telling me "well, VMS doesn't have make". On my system it does. They then go on a long tirade about how it was invented on unix, and VMS only has it because they "lifted it" from UNIX. So what? A good idea is a good idea, who cares that it was on system x first. As it happens, I like UNIX a lot, but there are features on VMS that are lacking on UNIX, and for certain environments a VMS type system is better. I can tell you however, that the above command will not work on a vanilla VMS system. IPC is easily done on VMS, it is not done via DCL, however as has been mentioned before, just as there are several shells available for UNIX systems, there are several for VMS. What sort of response do you suppose I'd get if I complained that BSD 4.0 has no networking support, that V6 has no job control etc. What VMS was lacking 10 years ago is irrelevant. --robert -- Disclaimer: I like unix better than VMS!!! CSNET: robert%jimi.cs.unlv.edu@relay.cs.net UUCP: {sdcrdcf,ihnp4}!otto!jimi!robert seismo!unrvax!tahoe!jimi!robert
mwm@eris.UUCP (02/10/87)
In article <634@mcgill-vision.UUCP> mouse@mcgill-vision.UUCP (der Mouse) writes: >Seems to me that the fact that VMS is lifting ideas from UNIX instead >of the other way around says something about which is more useful. And what makes you think the flow is all one way? I can think of a handfull of things that were in early VMeS's (say, 3.x) that weren't in early BSD releases (4.0) that are in 4.[23], or have been added by various people. Trouble is, most of those things are things that are in any production OS, so you can't point and say that "this came from VMS." They could have come from AOS, or MVS, or Primos, or..... In any case, the important question isn't "where'd it come from," the important question is "when will it be in my favorite OS?" Being willing and able to adapt good ideas will improve your OS faster than trying to come up with them by yourself. <mike