cgf@ednor.UUCP (Chris Faylor) (08/05/88)
Does anybody know if it is possible to produce a tar tape on a Sun that is readable on an HP 300? It seems that the HP uses some kind of strange format... Replies via e-mail, please. -- Chris Faylor uunet!ednor!cgf
swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) (08/06/88)
In article <614@ednor.UUCP> cgf@ednor.UUCP (Chris Faylor) writes: > >Does anybody know if it is possible to produce a tar tape on a Sun >that is readable on an HP 300? It seems that the HP uses some kind >of strange format... I tried this for a while one day and finally gave up. I think HP uses some different kind of format. We couldn't even get the tape drive to accept blank tapes that we use for the Sun (the error light would come on after 30 secs). It seemed the only blank tapes we could get the drive to accept were those that came from HP and I think they said something about special formatting. I also heard that HP writes the tape backwards from other people, this is why it takes up to 90 seconds to load the tape because it has to forward (rewind) to the end (beginning) of the tape. I don't know if any of this is really true, but it sounds crazy to me. In short we gave up and tried to transfer data with ethernet, of course the HP was thin ethernet and the Sun thick so ... BTW, this happened before I worked at Sun and my general stupidity should not be construed as a reflection on this fine company. -- Scott Wilson arpa: swilson@sun.com Sun Microsystems uucp: ...!sun!swilson Mt. View, CA
aad@stpstn.UUCP (Anthony A. Datri) (08/06/88)
HP cartridges are indeed preformatted in some way. Hence, you have to get your tapes from HP. Pop open the window on an HP tape, and you'll see a pair of little holes (!) in the tape. I think they have something to do with it. I've taken surplus HP tapes and used them in a sun, but when you do that they are forever unusable in the HP. -- @disclaimer(Any concepts or opinions above are entirely mine, not those of my employer, my GIGI, or my 11/34) beak is beak is not Anthony A. Datri,SysAdmin,StepstoneCorporation,stpstn!aad
burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Anthony Burzio) (08/07/88)
In article <63050@sun.uucp>, swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) writes: > In article <614@ednor.UUCP> cgf@ednor.UUCP (Chris Faylor) writes: > > > >Does anybody know if it is possible to produce a tar tape on a Sun > >that is readable on an HP 300? It seems that the HP uses some kind > >of strange format... > > I tried this for a while one day and finally gave up. I think > HP uses some different kind of format. We couldn't even get the I was told by HP at a UNIX class that their file system for UNIX is actually built up an an older file system. The UNIX volume is a file in this other system. Without this file system on the tape, you are out of luck. Of course, HP didn't throw in a program to FORMAT this older file system, therefore you have to buy their tapes... > In short we gave up and tried to transfer data with ethernet, of course > the HP was thin ethernet and the Sun thick so ... > DEC sells a little gizmo for switching between thick and thin Ethernet (if you can stomach talking to DEC...) **************************************************************** Tony Burzio * My bosses will never read this * Martin Marietta Laboratories * so it's ok. * ****************************************************************
rjn@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Bob Niland) (08/08/88)
re: "Does anybody know if it is possible to produce a tar tape on a Sun
that is readable on an HP 300? It seems that the HP uses some kind
of strange format..."
from a Nov 1987 response to a similar question...
re: HP vs SUN format on 1/4-in. cartridge tapes
The sad news: Sorry, you can't use 1/4-in. cartridge tape to exchange data
with non-HP systems. Why? Read on...
As far as I know, there is no formal industry standard for 1/4-in. tape
formats, like the ANSI standards for 1/2-in. tape. The variations between
vendors may include: number of tracks, density, speed, direction, encoding,
etc. The predominant HP standard is the 3M HCD-75 format, code-named
"Linus", as used on 88140LC/SC media (this is what you have). A few vendors
have adopted QIC-02/24. The HP 9142A drive uses "PCT" format, also
incompatible with HCD.
The HCD-75 format was developed in the early 80's (well before QIC). I have
no idea why it never became a standard outside HP. It's rough
specifications are: 10,000 cpi, 16 track, MFM encoding. The media is
pre-formatted by 3M into 1536-byte blocks (1024 data bytes plus 50%
redundancy for error recovery). The 1.5Kb blocks are delimited by
full-track "keys", written by 3M.
The 3M designation for the 150-ft. HP88140SC is DC615HC, and the 600-ft.
HP88140LC is DC600HC. There is also a new HCD-134 format and "XTD" media,
suitable for 32-track drives.
The keys pre-formatting is critical. It can be done only by 3M. The
"certification" process done by our 'sdfinit' and 'mediainit' commands only
erases, verifies and spares the existing data frames. It DOES NOT create
new keys or frames on a blank tape. If you degauss an 88140 tape, or write
on it on a non-HCD-75 system, you destroy it's useability on HP systems.
This is why the reels are often labelled "DO NOT DEGAUSS".
SUN apparently uses QIC-24 format on QIC-02 drives. I don't have complete
specs at hand, but what I could find says: 9 tracks, NRZI encoding and
variable length records. SUN media appears to be 3M DC300XL. The density
must be similar, since a 600-ft. 16-track HP tape holds 67 Mbytes, and a
600-ft. 9-track DC300XL holds 45 Mbytes. In any case, I know from personal
experience that DC300XL media doesn't work in 88140-compatible HP drives.
Now, what can happen if you attempt interchange?
1. If the SUN system manages to write on your HP tape, the tape is ruined
for further HP use. You may be able to use it on the SUN after
formatting it on the SUN (or whatever process they use to prep tapes, if
any).
Why would the SUN write on it? Well, on HP tape drives, my understanding
is that the drive will update the CS/80 logs on the tape (outside the
region of data frames), regardless of whether or not the tape is
write-protected (I doubt HP drives will write on a "foreign" tape).
Unless you deliberately write on it, I don't really think a SUN will
trash the tape. QIC format does not allow selective re-writing of
records like the HCD-75 format does. There are probably also no "logs"
because QIC format relies on read-while-write to prevent errors and has
no other error recovery mechanism, and thus no use for logs.
2. The tape may be left rewound in a strange state. Apart from the fact
that SUN rewinds to the opposite end of the media from HP, the BOT/EOT
conventions are different.
The physical beginning and end of tape (BOT/EOT) on these cartridges is
several holes punched in the tape, sensed optically through the little
mirror opening in the cartridge. The tape is NOT affixed to the takeup
reels. It is possible to rewind the tape off the hubs, so the drive
firmware is "cautious".
HP drives do not use the optical sense method; it was not sufficiently
reliable. We use the boundary keys to determine BOT/EOT, and always
rewind the tape before unload/release. If the tape is rewound to the
BOT/EOT holes, it is outside the keys area, and the HP drive will
probably time-out looking for keys, and thinks that the tape is spilled
(or about to). It will buzz and reject the cartridge to avoid damaging
the tape by further attempts at tape motion.
If you can see that the tape has not unspooled, you can try manual
repositioning. Wind the tape into the normal HP "rewound" state. Watch
carefully for the first BOT/EOT hole. Park the hole toward the emptier
reel (with respect to the mirror), plus an extra foot or so. Be careful
not to dump the tape. It is very tricky to disassemble and reload one of
these cartridges.
Regards, Hewlett-Packard
Bob Niland rjn@hpfcrjn.HP.COM 3404 East Harmony Road
[hplabs|hpu...!hpfcse]!rjn Ft Collins CO 80525-9599frank@zen.co.uk (Frank Wales) (08/09/88)
In article <373@mmlai.UUCP> burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Anthony Burzio) writes: >In article <63050@sun.uucp>, swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) writes: >>In article <614@ednor.UUCP> cgf@ednor.UUCP (Chris Faylor) writes: >>>Does anybody know if it is possible to produce a tar tape on a Sun >>>that is readable on an HP 300? It seems that the HP uses some kind >>>of strange format... >> >> I tried this for a while one day and finally gave up. I think >> HP uses some different kind of format. > >I was told by HP at a UNIX class that their file system for UNIX is >actually built up an an older file system. This was true on the now-obsolete series 500 machines, which used SDF (Structured Directory Format), but the current 300 and 800 series machines both use the Berkeley-McCusick Fast File System. >The UNIX volume is a file in this other system. Without this file system >on the tape, you are out of luck. Of course, HP didn't throw in a program >to FORMAT this older file system, therefore you have to buy their tapes... Hmm, not exactly. The cartridges HP use are pre-formatted from the manufacturer for HP's use (HP doesn't make them; if you look carefully through the clear plastic case, you can see who does) -- if you wipe the tape's formatting off, even HP can't fix it (allegedly); it has to go back to the maker. Hence no formatting program. The main problem with HP's cartridges is that HP runs them through the tape drive mechanism the other way from everyone else using this tape size, so stick a Sun tape (say) into an HP drive, and wheee! it runs off the end of the tape looking for the start-of-tape marker, because on HP's cartridge, it's in the other direction along the tape. If you have an HP tape and a non-HP tape, compare them and see which reel contains more tape when wound to the start. >> In short we gave up and tried to transfer data with ethernet, of course >> the HP was thin ethernet and the Sun thick so ... Did you try using uucp over RS232? Slow, but reliable. :-) -- Frank Wales, Development Engineer, [frank@zen.co.uk<->mcvax!ukc!zen!frank] Zengrange Ltd., Greenfield Rd., Leeds, ENGLAND, LS9 8DB. (+44) 532 489048 x220
mlight@hpiacla.HP.COM (Mike Light ) (08/09/88)
>>Does anybody know if it is possible to produce a tar tape on a Sun >>that is readable on an HP 300? It seems that the HP uses some kind >>of strange format... >[...] >this is why it >takes up to 90 seconds to load the tape because it has to forward (rewind) >to the end (beginning) of the tape. I don't know if any of this is really >true, but it sounds crazy to me. Cartridge tapes are rather temperamental beasts. The tape is read forward and backward when inserted to evenly distribute the stress on the tape. Sadly, I've never tried moving data to/from a Sun, so can't help you there. >BTW, this happened before I worked at Sun and my general stupidity >should not be construed as a reflection on this fine company. Thank you. :-) -- Mike Light. ----------------------------------------------------------------------- Mike Light HP Industrial Applications Center - mlight@hpiacla.HP.COM -----------------------------------------------------------------------
mike@pcsbst.UUCP (Mike Schroeder) (08/10/88)
In article <373@mmlai.UUCP> burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Anthony Burzio) writes: >In article <63050@sun.uucp>, swilson%thetone@Sun.COM (Scott Wilson) writes: >> In article <614@ednor.UUCP> cgf@ednor.UUCP (Chris Faylor) writes: [stuff deleted] > >> In short we gave up and tried to transfer data with ethernet, of course >> the HP was thin ethernet and the Sun thick so ... >> > >DEC sells a little gizmo for switching between thick and >thin Ethernet (if you can stomach talking to DEC...) > As far as I know, you can also get this type of gizmo from Interlan (in case you prefer talking to them ;-). Mike Schroeder (cochise!mike@pcsbst.UUCP) PCS GmbH; Pfaelzer-Wald-Str. 36; D-8000 Muenchen 90; W. Germany UUCP: ...uunet!unido!pcsbst!msc PS: anyone seen my disclaimer wandering around ?-)
tim@introl.uucp (Tim Chase) (08/10/88)
The HP systems (at least the 9000's) use preformatted tapes. Putting
a regular (DC600A for example) tape in an HP's drive will cause it
to grind awhile and finally decide that the tape is no good. Sometimes,
with the wrong kind of tape, the drive will get confused and wind the
tape off one of the spools.
The proper tapes for HP systems are 3M's DC600HC (600 feet) or the DC615HC
(150 feet). Presumably the format on them would be destroyed instantly
by writing them on a "foreign" system.
In any case, I suspect it is impossible to either read or write an HP
compatible tape on a SUN, Apollo, or any other system that uses
unformatted tapes.
--
UUCP: {uunet,uwvax!uwmcsd1}!marque!introl!tim
Phone: +1 414 276-2937burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Anthony Burzio) (08/10/88)
In article <1378@zen.co.uk>, frank@zen.co.uk (Frank Wales) writes: > >I was told by HP at a UNIX class that their file system for UNIX is > >actually built up an an older file system. > > > This was true on the now-obsolete series 500 machines, which used SDF > (Structured Directory Format), but the current 300 and 800 series machines > both use the Berkeley-McCusick Fast File System. If this is true, can you then explain the following: when you create swap space on an HP disk drive, you may not change the size without reformatting the disk. I was told that this is because the swapping space is in the old file system and therefore static. If anyone knows how to change the swap size dynamically ( we use SDRC CAD programs that are real swap hogs ) please let me know... (By the by, I am going to take the results of this to HP to update their UNIX SysAdmin course. Seems they are a little out of date...) *************************************************************************** Tony Burzio * The IS life after DEC? * Martin Marietta Laboratories * By golly, you're right! * ***************************************************************************
burzio@mmlai.UUCP (Anthony Burzio) (08/10/88)
In article <1967@stpstn.UUCP>, aad@stpstn.UUCP (Anthony A. Datri) writes: > HP cartridges are indeed preformatted in some way. Hence, you have > to get your tapes from HP. Try MISSCO, same tapes but cheaper... Be SURE to ask for HP formatted tapes. ************************************************************************** Tony Burzio * "Whatta you mean $500 for backup tapes! * Martin Marietta Laboratories * "But gee boss, only one backup per tape." * **************************************************************************
rml@hpfcdc.HP.COM (Bob Lenk) (08/12/88)
> >I was told by HP at a UNIX class that their file system for UNIX is > >actually built up an an older file system. > > > This was true on the now-obsolete series 500 machines, which used SDF > (Structured Directory Format), but the current 300 and 800 series machines > both use the Berkeley-McCusick Fast File System. The boot block on the series 300 file system is structured as an older file system format (known as LIF, logical interchange format). The file system beyond that is (essentially) the BSD file system. This has nothing to do with the cartridge tape issue. > If this is true, can you then explain the following: when you create > swap space on an HP disk drive, you may not change the size without > reformatting the disk. I was told that this is because the swapping > space is in the old file system and therefore static. If anyone knows > how to change the swap size dynamically ( we use SDRC CAD programs > that are real swap hogs ) please let me know... Swap space on the series 300 can be configured as any combination of pieces of the forms: - a whole disk - the part of the disk that is left beyond the file system - any explictly specified portion of a disk The second is the most common, and the only one that is normally useful on a system with a single disk. The only way to increase swap space on such a disk is to rebuild a smaller file system. This has nothing to do with the LIF file system in the boot block. The only other way to add swap space is to add another disk. These answers do not apply to machines other than the series 300. Bob Lenk hplabs!hpfcla!rml rml%hpfcla@hplabs.hp.com Standard disclaimer - the statements and opinions are mine alone.
jarmo@tut.FI (Jarmo Sorvari) (08/13/88)
In article <1967@stpstn.UUCP> aad@stpstn.UUCP (Anthony A. Datri) writes: > >HP cartridges are indeed preformatted in some way. Hence, you have >to get your tapes from HP. Pop open the window on an HP tape, and No. I have bought 3M tapes, run 'mediainit' on them, and used without problems. I am using an HP 9000/840. 3M tapes worked on our previous 9000/550, also; I think initialization was done using the command sdfinit (?). -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- ! Jarmo Sorvari Control Engineering Laboratory ! ! jarmo@tut.fi Tampere University of Technology ! --------------------------------------- BOX 527, 33101 Tampere, Finland -----
lai@vedge.UUCP (David Lai) (08/17/88)
In article <151@karhu.tut.FI> jarmo@tut.FI (Jarmo Sorvari) writes: > >No. I have bought 3M tapes, run 'mediainit' on them, and used without >problems. I am using an HP 9000/840. 3M tapes worked on our previous >9000/550, also; I think initialization was done using the command >sdfinit (?). When I pop a regular 3M tape into the 9144 drive (HP9000/300), it cranks a while then the 'fault' lite appears. I can't get it to do anything with mediainit. (Actaully my problem is using non-preformatted tapes for the HP) Is there a way of formatting them? -- "What is a DJ if he can't scratch?" - Uncle Jamms Army The views expressed are those of the author, and not of Visual Edge, nor Usenet. David Lai (vedge!lai@larry.mcrcim.mcgill.edu || ...watmath!onfcanim!vedge!lai)
spolsky@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Joel Spolsky) (08/18/88)
You can, however, move 1/4 tapes between a Sun and an AT&T 3Bn. I've done that. Joel Spolsky Bell Communications Research
tjfs@otter.hple.hp.com (Tim Steele) (08/19/88)
I gather formatting a tape requires a drive with special firmware - there's no way to do it on a standard HP drive. Tim
robert@pvab.UUCP (Robert Claeson) (08/20/88)
In article <4799@netnews.upenn.edu>, spolsky@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Joel Spolsky) writes: > You can, however, move 1/4 tapes between a Sun and an AT&T 3Bn. I've > done that. How?
spolsky@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Joel Spolsky) (08/24/88)
In article <301@pvab.UUCP| robert@pvab.UUCP (Robert Claeson) writes: | In article <4799@netnews.upenn.edu| , spolsky@eniac.seas.upenn.edu (Joel Spolsky) writes: | | | You can, however, move 1/4 tapes between a Sun and an AT&T 3Bn. I've | | done that. | | How? (assuming you are using the 60 meg cartridge things) Use cpio format. Worked for me first time. Joel Spolsky Bell Communications Research and Yale University