jte@psuvax1.UUCP (06/12/87)
One thing has bothered me about this whole business about non-sources
in net.sources groups. The net is supposted to be a democratic type
of orginization (or so I am lead to believe), so if 98% of the posters
to net.sources don't post sources but post something elese then let
them post what they want. I would rather threat through 10 non sources
articles to get to one article then not have any net.sources newsgroup
at all... The moderated source groups have one problem with the delay
factor. There is just too much work (at least I think) for one person
to do without pay on top of another job. I feel that a unmoderated
sources group should be recreated because of overall net opinion.
(Everyone who wanted a unmoderated souces group could post a message
to comp.sources.d, that would get someone to listen...)
Just kidding about that though, I don't think it will come to that.
I think that the net has been well run up to this point and that it
will continue to operate under the hands of the current operators.
Disclaimer: I do not represent the Pennsylvania State University
in any shape, matter or form (including opinions)
execpt that I think we have a great football team.
--Jon Eckhardt jte@psuvax1.psu.edu - ARPA
<allegra,ihnp4,atcgva,burdvax,purdue>!psuvax1!jte
jte@psuvax1 - BITNET
---------------------------------------------------------------------------
PSU #1 Phone: 814-237-1901 Work: (leave message) 814-865-9505 PSU #1
---------------------------------------------------------------------------jerry@oliveb.UUCP (06/15/87)
It has been suggested that we just ignore the non-source postings to source groups. I think we are all used to skipping articles that we don't find interesting so this is a suggestion I could live with, except for one thing. My site, as well as many others, save the source groups. Currently I have to regularly go through the archive directory and delete the extraneous postings. I want to keep part 5 of your new editor but I definitely DON'T want to keep somebody's request for a reposting of part 5. Most of the people who believe they should be allowed to post discussion and requests in the source groups seem to ignore the extra workload they create for archive maintainers. Before someone comments that this is the archiver's problem not theirs, I am sure that many people are glad to have archiving sites around when they suddenly find a need for that software they saw posted last month. I would like to introduce an idea that might satisfy both sides. I suggest that we introduce an "Archive: " header. We then modify the expire process so that it can expire selectively based on this keyword. An addition to postnews would ask the poster if their article should be marked as containing source (or announcement of source availability) that should be permanently archived, and add the "Archive: " header. This would allow discussions and requests to run in parallel with source postings and would keep me happy. I and see two problems with this: First is that a poster with old software might post without the "Archive: " header. As posting a source is generally done by a more knowledgable user they can, if necessary, manually add the header. If source does go out without the header then it is possible to contact the poster and have him repost it with the correct header. In this case you are dealing with a sympathetic user and cooperation should be better. The second potential problem is "Archive: " headers on non-source postings. The key point here is that this would require a deliberate abuse by someone with no justification of ignorance or "free speech". Most of the non-source posting are thru ignorance and are therefor fixed by this solution. The others are by people who are aware of the restriction to sources only but stand on there right to "free speech". If some user thinks that his opinions are not only worthy of world wide distribution in the sources group, but also should be permanently archived using someone else's disk space then I think we have a good case for restricting his access to the net. I think the main point is to require the poster to explicitly mark the posting as source rather then infer it from the news group. Jerry Aguirre -- My favorite is the poster who wrote an article apologizing for his non-source posting and how he knew better now and would never do it again. He posted the apology to net.sources of course. There should be some kind of award.
chuq@plaid.UUCP (06/16/87)
In article <1408@oliveb.UUCP> jerry@oliveb.UUCP (Jerry F Aguirre) writes: >It has been suggested that we just ignore the non-source postings to >source groups. I think we are all used to skipping articles that we >don't find interesting so this is a suggestion I could live with, except >for one thing. > >My site, as well as many others, save the source groups. Currently I >have to regularly go through the archive directory and delete the >extraneous postings. I want to keep part 5 of your new editor but I >definitely DON'T want to keep somebody's request for a reposting of part 5. It's funny, but long, long ago, before moderated groups and high volumes, I archived source groups to tape. I did this for over two years, as a matter of fact, taking the time to zap all the garbage messages and the like (believe it or not, garbage in sources groups isn't a new phenomenon -- people have always been idiotic and stubborn about posting to the wrong groups). I mean, you never know when you'll want a copy of ispell version 0.4 or top version 3.1. I finally sat down and looked at (1) the time I was spending maintaining a source archive and (2) the number of times I actually USED the archive. I found (and I'll bet that this is a common occurance) that if I didn't do something with it when it was posted (either install it or store it until I had time) I never used it. In all that time, with (at one time) 25+ megabytes of net.sources archive, I went back to the archive exactly once. So I did the only logical thing -- I turned off archiving. Eventually I reused the tape, and to date I've never missed anything I once thought was so important. Putting together archives is a Good Thing. But, frankly, how often do you find you need something off of it? How many gigabytes of disk and tape are being taken up by archives of all of this stuff that nobody needs and that most archivers probably have forgotten they have? It's my belief that the sources groups are great for posting source, but I'm not at all sure that keeping those sources around is really worth it. In fact, it is probably MUCH cheaper on a dollar basis to simply dump everything to tape rather than spend a couple of man-hours cleaning up the archive -- people, especially unix people, are relatively expensive pieces of equiptment; tape is cheap. I mean, all of this is well and good, but is it worth all the time we're wasting arguing about it? Or are we arguing because we like to argue? chuq Chuq Von Rospach chuq@sun.COM Delphi: CHUQ Now, where did my ex-wife put my Fairy Dust?
ken@rochester.UUCP (06/16/87)
Well, instead of having a moderator, why not someone volunteer to watch news go by and post the article id's of the sources postings now and then and we could use those id's to zap the non-source postings? Ken
sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) (06/16/87)
In article <1408@oliveb.UUCP> jerry@oliveb.UUCP (Jerry F Aguirre) writes: >It has been suggested that we just ignore the non-source postings to >source groups. I think we are all used to skipping articles that we >don't find interesting so this is a suggestion I could live with, except >for one thing. >I would like to introduce an idea that might satisfy both sides. I >suggest that we introduce an "Archive: " header. We then modify the >expire process so that it can expire selectively based on this keyword. I have been meaning to make a suggestion along these lines but for somewhat different reasons. If this line could contain additional information such as the suggested file name to store the posting then the expiration process could do a much more intelligent job of saving the information. For example: Archive: sources/games/warp7.2 ( warp7 part 2 of 7 ) Archive: sources/unix/smail2.3.4 ( smail 2.3 part 4 of 5 ) This would make an archivers life SO much easier. No more screwing around trying to figure out what the names of the 57 files in your save directory are, so you can rename them. In point of fact I have been meaning to setup up an archive service for our local area, and indeed have the server software up and running. However I find it takes TOO much time to keep the database current. I just don't have the time. So I don't offer this service. Perhaps postnews could be modified to ask: Is this a source posting? (y/n) If the answer is yes: What is the archive name of this posting? If none was given then it would not put the Archive: header in. This presents two different questions which potential abusers would have to answer before their message would be archived. Also, because we now have these messages saved AND NAMED, if there is abuse it will be relatively easy to delete the files in question. They should be quite easy to find (esp. as there will likely be massive flaming in comp.sources.d telling everyone to delete the appropriate file). -- Stuart Lynne ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!van-bc!sl Vancouver,BC,604-937-7532
lyndon@ncc.UUCP (Lyndon Nerenberg) (06/17/87)
In article <841@van-bc.UUCP>, sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes:
<
< If this line could contain additional information such as the suggested file
< name to store the posting then the expiration process could do a much more
< intelligent job of saving the information. For example:
<
< Archive: sources/games/warp7.2 ( warp7 part 2 of 7 )
< Archive: sources/unix/smail2.3.4 ( smail 2.3 part 4 of 5 )
<
< This would make an archivers life SO much easier. No more screwing around
< trying to figure out what the names of the 57 files in your save directory
< are, so you can rename them.
<
< Perhaps postnews could be modified to ask:
< Is this a source posting? (y/n)
< If the answer is yes:
< What is the archive name of this posting?
<
< If none was given then it would not put the Archive: header in. This
< presents two different questions which potential abusers would have to
< answer before their message would be archived.
I *like* the idea (this would also work well with the map distributions)
however someone has to maintain a list of filenames. Otherwise, sooner
or later (probably sooner), someone will inadvertently (or otherwise)
use a duplicate name, zapping your old source in the process.
THEREFORE, I would like to suggest that (if this is implemented) rnews
be made to check the active file for the moderation status of the news-
group. If, and only if, it's moderated should the Archive: header be
used.sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) (06/17/87)
In article <1443@ncc.UUCP> lyndon@ncc.UUCP (Lyndon Nerenberg) writes: >In article <841@van-bc.UUCP>, sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes: >< >< If this line could contain additional information such as the suggested file >< name to store the posting then the expiration process could do a much more >< intelligent job of saving the information. For example: >< >< Archive: sources/games/warp7.2 ( warp7 part 2 of 7 ) >< Archive: sources/unix/smail2.3.4 ( smail 2.3 part 4 of 5 ) >< >I *like* the idea (this would also work well with the map distributions) >however someone has to maintain a list of filenames. Otherwise, sooner I think that moderated groups would have no problem with this. For the most part the moderators will be able to provide unique names without any problem. Unmoderated groups MIGHT have a problem. Personally I don't think it would be a big one. At least not for a while. >or later (probably sooner), someone will inadvertently (or otherwise) >use a duplicate name, zapping your old source in the process. Actually it's not quite as bad as this. First the default save can be made to be an append as opposed to creating a new file. Or if the name was already in use a qualifier could be added. For example: source/games/warp7.2.a Or you could use a date oriented scheme: Archive: warp7.2 (warp 7, part 2 of 7) could be archived in: archive/870616/warp7.2 In this case all files being archived are put into a directory that is unique for a specific day (or week, or month). The files for a specific posting will now be spread over several directories, but that's far less of a hassle to deal with than what we have now. > >THEREFORE, I would like to suggest that (if this is implemented) rnews >be made to check the active file for the moderation status of the news- >group. If, and only if, it's moderated should the Archive: header be >used. This idea fits very nicely into the self moderation scheme. The original message in this series dealt with the problem of self moderation by asking a specific question "Is this a source posting?" and then adding the Archive: header to signal expire to deal with the article in a special fashion. By forcing people to provide additional information if they want to have their posting archived we put a slight road block in their way. Not much of one but most people are lazy and for the most part that and peer pressure (do you really want several dozen nasty messages in you mailbox if you abuse this option) will keep people from providing the information unless it is required. -- Stuart Lynne ihnp4!alberta!ubc-vision!van-bc!sl Vancouver,BC,604-937-7532
rob@array.UUCP (Rob Marchand) (06/26/87)
In article <843@van-bc.UUCP> sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes: >In article <1443@ncc.UUCP> lyndon@ncc.UUCP (Lyndon Nerenberg) writes: >>In article <841@van-bc.UUCP>, sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes: >>< >>< If this line could contain additional information such as the suggested file >>< name to store the posting then the expiration process could do a much more >>< intelligent job of saving the information. For example: >>< >>< Archive: sources/games/warp7.2 ( warp7 part 2 of 7 ) >>< Archive: sources/unix/smail2.3.4 ( smail 2.3 part 4 of 5 ) >>< > >This idea fits very nicely into the self moderation scheme. The original >message in this series dealt with the problem of self moderation by asking a >specific question "Is this a source posting?" and then adding the Archive: >header to signal expire to deal with the article in a special fashion. > I like the idea of setting up some automatic archiving of sources. Any thoughts on setting up a sys file entry to batch source articles? (Of course, then you end up with two copies until expire trashes the article) Then have a cron job that processes them once a day, or whatever. If the moderator then set out to have the Subject: line start with, say, a standard format, e.g. ispell01.shar (shar file (no kidding :-) ispell01.pat (patch file) (where the 01 was the section number of the distribution) as the first 'word', it should be fairly simple to set up a shell script to archive source files based on the Subject: line. It would leave the final decision as to how the source archive was structured up to the user. Of course, this would then require that a moderator, or some such, set up the Subject: line correctly, or that Pnews, or Postnews, or whatever could generate it via some simple procedure. Oh well, more random wanderings for your amusement.... :-) -- Rob Marchand UUCP: {watmath,mnetor}!utzoo!dciem!array!rob Array Systems Computing ARPA: rob%array@seismo.css.gov 200-5000 Dufferin Street Phone : +1(416)736-0900 Fax: (416) 736-4715 Downsview, Ont CANADA M3H 5T5 Telex : 063666 (CNCP EOS TOR) .TO 21:ARY001
ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles) (07/01/87)
In article <507@array.UUCP> rob@array.UUCP (Rob Marchand) writes: >In article <841@van-bc.UUCP>, sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes: >< If this line could contain additional information such as the suggested >< file name to store the posting then the expiration process could do a much >< more intelligent job of saving the information. For example: >< >< Archive: sources/games/warp7.2 ( warp7 part 2 of 7 ) >< Archive: sources/unix/smail2.3.4 ( smail 2.3 part 4 of 5 ) > >[edited]...If the moderator then set out to have the Subject: >line start with, say, a standard format, e.g. > ispell01.shar (shar file (no kidding :-) > ispell01.pat (patch file) The problem with either of these methods is that some systems have file name size limits of 8 characters, some of 14, some of 32, and some have no limits. There would always be some poor person whose archiving gets stomped on because some poster didn't make sure his file names were no more than 8/14/etc... characters long. Leave it up to the moderator to make sure that the file names are of an acceptable length and the delay in posting will really get out of hand. Nice idea, but... Back to the terminal! -- | Edwin Wiles ...!seismo!sundc!netxcom!ewiles | Net Express, Inc. "Who?... Me?... What opinions?!?" | 1953 Gallows Rd. Suite 300 Schedule: (n.) An ever changing nightmare. | Vienna, VA 22180
allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) (07/04/87)
As quoted from <240@netxcom.UUCP> by ewiles@netxcom.UUCP (Edwin Wiles): +--------------- | In article <507@array.UUCP> rob@array.UUCP (Rob Marchand) writes: | >In article <841@van-bc.UUCP>, sl@van-bc.UUCP (Stuart Lynne) writes: | >< If this line could contain additional information such as the suggested | >< file name to store the posting then the expiration process could do a much | >< more intelligent job of saving the information. For example: | >[edited]...If the moderator then set out to have the Subject: | >line start with, say, a standard format, e.g. | The problem with either of these methods is that some systems have file | name size limits of 8 characters, some of 14, some of 32, and some have | no limits. There would always be some poor person whose archiving gets | stomped on because some poster didn't make sure his file names were no | more than 8/14/etc... characters long. Leave it up to the moderator to | make sure that the file names are of an acceptable length and the delay | in posting will really get out of hand. +--------------- My submissions to comp.sources.misc and comp.binaries.ibm.pc contain a new header line: Archive: newsgroup/mmdd/seq example: "Archive: comp.sources.misc/8707/4" If you don't have BSD filenames, just change the dots to slashes and in general it'll work fine (barring MS-DOS, Eunice, and other brain-dead operating systems). However, don't depend on my archiving them -- ncoast is cramped for space (cbosgd just made us the N.E. Ohio news feed -- most of last night's load ended up on the floor, and I ended up sacrificing archival space to make room in the spool filesystem for news). ++Brandon -- ---- Moderator for comp.sources.misc and comp.binaries.ibm.pc ---- Brandon S. Allbery <BACKBONE>!cbosgd!hal!ncoast!allbery ('til Aug. 1) aXcess Company {ames,mit-eddie,harvard,talcott}!necntc!ncoast!allbery 6615 Center St. #A1-105 {well,sun,pyramid,ihnp4}!hoptoad!ncoast!allbery Mentor, OH 44060-4101 necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.HARVARD.EDU (Internet) +01 216 974 9210 ncoast!allbery@CWRU.EDU (CSnet -- if you dare) NCOAST ADMIN GROUP Brandon Allbery on 157/504 (Fidonet/Matrix/whatever) * ncoast -- Public Access UN*X -- (216) 781-6201, 24 hrs., 300/1200/2400 baud * * ncoast is proud to be carrying alt.all -- contact me for more information *
barnett@vdsvax.steinmetz.UUCP (Bruce G Barnett) (07/06/87)
In article <2774@ncoast.UUCP> allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) writes: >My submissions to comp.sources.misc and comp.binaries.ibm.pc contain a new >header line: > >Archive: newsgroup/mmdd/seq > >example: "Archive: comp.sources.misc/8707/4" >++Brandon along the same lines: I have another method - which is a variation of the savenews program distributed with News 2.11 (original by Chuq Von Rospach). It will take any article and store it under /savenews/newsgroup/yy-mm/article-id It also creates a log file, one for each newsgroup. Example: /savenews/LOGS/comp.sources.misc comp.sources.misc/87-04/2432.ncoast Welcome to comp.sources.misc comp.sources.misc/87-05/2486.ncoast Adventure Shell Chuq's original used a hashing scheme instead of the yy-mm value. Using the yy-mm scheme makes it easier to archive to tape the older stuff. Also - part n of m postings usually end up in the same directory. Thirdly, I can sort the log file somewhat chronologically. I also compress older directories. I have made some other minor changes that handle some of the strange Message-ID's of TOPS and VMS machines, in addition to Rev C news articles. It can archive any article, but it looks like it should be changed to make use of Brandon's header. If you like - I can send you the patches. p.s. Thank you, Brandon and Chuq. -- Bruce G. Barnett (barnett@ge-crd.ARPA) (barnett@steinmetz.UUCP)
allbery@ncoast.UUCP (07/09/87)
As quoted from <1940@vdsvax.steinmetz.UUCP> by barnett@vdsvax.steinmetz.UUCP (Bruce G Barnett): +--------------- | >Archive: newsgroup/mmdd/seq | >example: "Archive: comp.sources.misc/8707/4" +----------------------------------------^^ Mea culpa. It's yymm, not mmdd. (At least one replier did notice that "87" isn't a valid month!) Also, it's "X-Archive:" to avoid future RFC822 extensions. These headers of mine are added automatically by my "authorize" script, which I've sent to the moderators' list. (It also does archiving, but ncoast is too limited in space to retain them.) -- [Copyright 1987 Brandon S. Allbery, all rights reserved] \ ncoast 216 781 6201 [Redistributable only if redistribution is subsequently permitted.] \ 2400 bd. Brandon S. Allbery, moderator of comp.sources.misc and comp.binaries.ibm.pc {{ames,harvard,mit-eddie}!necntc,{well,ihnp4}!hoptoad,cbosgd}!ncoast!allbery <<The opinions herein are those of my cat, therefore they must be correct!>>