rjd@tiger.UUCP (10/08/87)
> - In article <29932@sun.uucp> guy%gorodish@Sun.COM (Guy Harris) writes: > - -> Check with AT&T to determine if the $2 or $3K you will be paying for the > - -> Korn shell is for SUPPORTED code. I *think* that the ATT Toolchest contains > - -> just unsupported source code. > - $2 or $3k? Last I heard it was $50 for the binaries off of the toolchest. > > The problem with binaries is that they generally don't run on the machine that > you have :-). Not everybody has a Vax or a 3b2. > > Of course, third-parties do provide binaries & support, for SOME machines... > > Eric Green So buy a 3B2!!! You need one anyway!! Randy
elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) (10/11/87)
in article <147000003@tiger.UUCP>, rjd@tiger.UUCP says: >> - -> Check with AT&T to determine if the $2 or $3K you will be paying for the >> - $2 or $3k? Last I heard it was $50 for the binaries off of the toolchest. >> The problem with binaries is that they generally don't run on the machine that >> you have :-). Not everybody has a Vax or a 3b2. >> Of course, third-parties do provide binaries & support, for SOME machines... > So buy a 3B2!!! You need one anyway!! Hate to burst your bubble, but if I had the $10,000 for a 3b2, there is a whole host of other machines in that price range which provide more bang for the buck, with a better version of Unix, too (Pet Peeve #123123). Ain't no way that the poor old WE CPU in the 3b2 is gonna keep up with no 16mhz 68020... -- Eric Green elg@usl.CSNET Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Lafayette, LA 70509 Hello darkness my old friend, I've come to talk with you again....
rjd@tiger.UUCP (10/14/87)
> >> you have :-). Not everybody has a Vax or a 3b2. > >> Of course, third-parties do provide binaries & support, for SOME machines.. > > So buy a 3B2!!! You need one anyway!! > > Hate to burst your bubble, but if I had the $10,000 for a 3b2, there is a > whole host of other machines in that price range which provide more bang for > the buck, with a better version of Unix, too (Pet Peeve #123123). Ain't no way > that the poor old WE CPU in the 3b2 is gonna keep up with no 16mhz > 68020... > Eric Green Piddly 16 Mhz? Guess you missed the model 600 announcement (not to mention the capabilities with the coprocessor option). Better version of Unix??? You're cracked. Maybe not $10,000, but still better for the money. Randy
rjd@tiger.UUCP (10/22/87)
> Oh good grief.* A 3-MIPS Sun-3/60 with 16" color monitor retails for $9900 > sans disk. If like a lot of places you get 20% or 30% educational discount, > this knocks it down to $7K or $8K; add a 3rd party SCSI disk & tape and you > might have nudged past the $10K mark in cost, but you've blasted past the 3B2 > in capability (and general wonderfulness). And color besides. "You're > cracked."? Don't make me laugh; `System V - consider it sub-standard' ... Color Monitor? So what? If you really need it, a color DMD can be had that is just great for the 600. (I guess the Sun is one of those PC-type of boxes with a monitor wired in.) The 600 isn't for graphics, though it can easily accomodate you, it is for serious business applications. NO DISK IN THE SUN??? Don't make me laugh. The model 600 has two 147 MB disks and 4 Meg Memory in its most basic configuration, along with capability to handle 26 users expandable with extra serial I/O rs232 cards to 90 users and memory expandable to 16 Meg. Disk space expandable to around 6 Gigabytes. 3-Mips? I'll say it again: Piddly!! The model 600 with coprocessor is around 4 to 4.5 Mips!! And lastly; No, system V is THE standard. Anything else except maybe Berzerkly is second-rate. Randy
wcs@ho95e.ATT.COM (Bill.Stewart) (10/24/87)
> >> you have :-). Not everybody has a Vax or a 3b2. > >> Of course, third-parties do provide binaries & support, for SOME machines.. > > So buy a 3B2!!! You need one anyway!! > > Hate to burst your bubble, but if I had the $10,000 for a 3b2, there is a > whole host of other machines in that price range which provide more bang for > the buck, with a better version of Unix, too (Pet Peeve #123123). Ain't no way > that the poor old WE CPU in the 3b2 is gonna keep up with no 16mhz > 68020... > Eric Green Ahem. <Warning: flames follow:> It's true the original WE-32000 10MHz 3B2/300 won't keep up with a 16 MHz 68020. It was similar in speed to the 68000s that were around at the time. Be fair. The 32100 used in the 3B2/400 runs at 10 MHz producing about 1 MIPS. The 32100 running 18 MHz in the 3B2/600 does about 2.6 MIPS (machine design having improved significantly.) The 32200 running 24-28 MHz will blow your doors off once we produce enough to ship you some. AT&T also makes a VME SBC based on the 32100 at 14-18 MHz. You'll have to but it in a card cage and give it some peripherals, but it's got 1 MB of 0-wait-state RAM in addition to any VME memory you have. It's cheap, and similar in performance to the 3B2/600 if you get the 18 MHz and good peripherals. Microproject has already announced a 32200 VME board using our chips; I don't know what MHz they're using (memory starts to get expensive, but the 32201 MMU/Cache does a *lot* for you, and the DMAC's pretty snazzy.) So don't sell the 32XXX series short. It's CISC rather than RISC, but it's got a complete chip family, a floating point chip faster than Weitek, and good Operating System support (SVR3.1 is noticably nicer than SVR0; comparisons to 4.3BSD will be graciously ignored, after you buy TCP/IP from The Wollon Gang or whoever.) -- # Thanks; # Bill Stewart, AT&T Bell Labs 2G218, Holmdel NJ 1-201-949-0705 ihnp4!ho95c!wcs
elg@killer.UUCP (Eric Green) (10/25/87)
in article <147000007@tiger.UUCP>, rjd@tiger.UUCP.UUCP says: <various ravings about AT&T 3b2/600 vs. Sun-3/60, where Mr. rjd proves that he's never used a Sun: > Since there seem to be a lot of AT&T employees here who have apparently never seen a Sun, first, a brief description of exactly what a Sun is. First, it is not particularly intended to be a multi-user computer, it is intended to be a networked graphics workstation, especially suited to CAD and heavy-duty software design. That is, each person has a Sun on his desk with a bunch of RAM and a 16 to 25mhz 68020 (in Sun-3 models), and a network wire going out the back to a file server (which may be a heavily endowed Sun, in w hich case 4-8 Suns per fileserver give better performance than SCSI disk drives, or may be any of 40-50 vender's machines who have adopted the Network File System). Your file server can have a variety of disk drives on it, including Eagle-class and Super-Eagle class drives (500mb to 1000mb). The operating system run on each machine is a heavily-hacked version of Berkeley BSD4.x (Bill Joy, who was one of the guys behind BSD, is one of the founders of Sun Microsystems), with various networking and windowing extensions. If I recall right, Sun is also under contract with AT&T to help merge together features of Sys V and BSD4.x. This is a completely different class of machine from the aforementioned AT&T machine, which is intended, from the specifications presented, to be sort of a cheap alternative to a low-end Vax (i.e. stand-alone, multi-user, big disk drives, glass TTY terminal interface instead of windowing interface, etc.) As for "general wonderfullness" and "System V - consider it sub-standard", well, I'm posting this from an AT&T 3b2 right now. Believe me, compared to what kind of stuff is available on a Sun, Sys V.2.2, at least, is so plain-vanilla that it's (almost?) painfull. I wouldn't attempt to use Sys V without getting either csh or ksh, and a whole bunch of baubles out of the net.archives (e.g. the "less" pager, "jove", & sundry other utilities). In any event, back to the original topic, if I had $10,000, based upon what I've seen on this 3b2 that I'm using right now, there's a lot better machines that I could buy with my $10,000 besides buy a 3b2. It was a good machine in its time, but what you get for $10,000 is getting rather dated (I won't comment on high-end 3b family machines, which apparently run at higher clock rates with later versions of the chips -- the original WE 32-bit line was the first 32-bit microprocessors ever released, and, technology-wise, are a bit behind compared to later 32-bit microprocessors such as the 68020). I wouldn't necessarily choose a Sun (let's face it, a Sun is expensive, and do I REALLY need one?)... but definitely not a 3b2. > And lastly; No, system V is THE standard. Anything else except maybe > Berzerkly is second-rate. > > Randy That's where he proves where he doesn't know what a Sun is (I mean, Bill Joy is a FOUNDER of Sun Microsystems! :-). -- Eric Green elg@usl.CSNET Snail Mail P.O. Box 92191 {cbosgd,ihnp4}!killer!elg Lafayette, LA 70509 Hello darkness my old friend, I've come to talk with you again....
schwartz@gondor.psu.edu (Scott E. Schwartz) (10/25/87)
In article <147000007@tiger.UUCP> rjd@tiger.UUCP writes: > >> Oh good grief.* A 3-MIPS Sun-3/60 with 16" color monitor retails for $9900 >> sans disk. If like a lot of places you get 20% or 30% educational discount, >> this knocks it down to $7K or $8K; add a 3rd party SCSI disk & tape and you >> might have nudged past the $10K mark in cost, but you've blasted past the 3B2 >> in capability (and general wonderfulness). And color besides. "You're >> cracked."? Don't make me laugh; `System V - consider it sub-standard' ... > > Color Monitor? So what? If you really need it, a color DMD can be had that >is just great for the 600. (I guess the Sun is one of those PC-type of boxes >with a monitor wired in.) The 600 isn't for graphics, though it can easily >accomodate you, it is for serious business applications. <sound of apples and oranges hitting the floor> Look, I think the intent of the original poster was to emphasise the amazing GRAPHICS capability of Suns and their ilk. Yeah the monitor is wired in, wired right into main memory. I guess your 3b2 is one of those antiques that has to send all output over slow (say 32k baud) lines to the terminal. Well, some people don't mind bottlenecks. How much did you say the color DMD was? I've seen the green and white ones and they don't compare to black and white Sun consoles anyway, at least if you care about things like resolution and readability. For that matter how much do g&w DMS's cost? Since when does having graphics ability preclude "serious" business applications? > NO DISK IN THE SUN??? >Don't make me laugh. The model 600 has two 147 MB disks and 4 Meg Memory in >its most basic configuration, along with capability to handle 26 users >expandable with extra serial I/O rs232 cards to 90 users and memory expandable >to 16 Meg. Disk space expandable to around 6 Gigabytes. Yeah the lack of local disks in Sun's most common configuration is a drag. On the other hand, as the original poster mentioned, Suns come with a popular interface, so you can easily attach one or more disks of your own choosing. Also, you can transparently use non-local disks elsewhere on your LAN (if you've got one). How much do those extra boards and disks you mention cost? Sounds like your price is rising. Sun's also have a minimum of 4M memory. 16 Meg max? You must be joking. Sun 3/60's go up to 24M (I think). > 3-Mips? I'll say it >again: Piddly!! The model 600 with coprocessor is around 4 to 4.5 Mips!! Coprocessor? --> $? >And lastly; No, system V is THE standard. Anything else except maybe >Berzerkly is second-rate. This is not a well informed statement: Sun UNIX includes the functionality of BOTH SysV and BSD with lots of extentions. Also, on Monday (you know, the day the market crashed) AT&T and Sun announced their plans for a unified edition of unix. Apparantly SUN unix is going to be THE standard soon. >Randy -- Scott Schwartz schwartz@gondor.psu.edu
wong@llama.rtech.UUCP (J. Wong) (10/26/87)
In article <1800@ho95e.ATT.COM> wcs@ho95e.UUCP (46133-Bill.Stewart,2G218,x0705,) writes: >> [discussion of relative merits of WE32000 chips in 3bx series vs. >> MC68000 chips in Sun/3 series] Just to note that AT&T recently signed an agreement with Sun to use the new proprietory chip Sun developed for use in the Sun/4 series. (So, this discussion seems moot. :-) J. Wong ucbvax!mtxinu!rtech!wong **************************************************************** You start a conversation, you can't even finish it. You're talking alot, but you're not saying anything. When I have nothing to say, my lips are sealed. Say something once, why say it again. - David Byrne
ignatz@chinet.UUCP (Dave Ihnat) (10/26/87)
>Also, on >Monday (you know, the day the market crashed) AT&T and Sun announced >their plans for a unified edition of unix. Apparantly SUN unix is >going to be THE standard soon. Uh...it could easily be said that AT&T Unis is going to be THE standard, after eating Sun for a snack. Come on, people, grow up--you're comparing systems with two different goals and purposes. I refuse to get involved, even though I'm finishing up a series of benchmarks and evaluations that ran the gamut from Sun workstations, 3B2 systems, the IBM PC/RT, and the Vax workstation, among others. If you don't have a specific application to provide parameters for your evaluation criteria, you're not discussing relative merit--you're indulging in religion. As in the kind of religious polemic to which this "Sun-vs-AT&T" debate has degenerated. Why don't you put this one where these types of arguments belong, along with the "Emacs vs Vi" and "Unix vs VMS"-- net.religion, because it sure isn't rational comparison, and nobody whose articles I've read is going to be convinced by the other side... -- Dave Ihnat ihnp4!homebru!ignatz || ihnp4!chinet!ignatz (w) (312) 882-4673
moran@yale-zoo-suned..arpa (William Moran) (10/29/87)
$10k ?? I'd buy 15 Amiga's (joke) ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ha ( I love
keyboard macros). Who cares? You are not going to convert Mr. {3b2,
Sun} so ignore it. Let's hear about things relating to SOURCES; who
cares whether you'd buy a Sun or a 3b2; further, SYSV vs. BSD is
surely not going to get decided here, so why bother? As the Sex
Pistols said "Ignore it and it'll go away". :}
Bill Moran
PS With $10k I'd but 1/4 of a 928 and get myself killed in a massive
explosion!!!!!!!!
******************************** William Moran Jr. *************************
* Arpa: moran-william@yale.arpa or cs.yale.edu * Arioch, Arioch etc. *
* UUCP: {harvard,decvax,cmcl2}!yale!moran-william * 1. Nf3 ++/-- *
* Bitnet: moran-william@yalecs.bitnet * *
****************************************************************************mike@turing.unm.edu (Michael I. Bushnell) (11/01/87)
In article <1781@chinet.UUCP>, ignatz@chinet (Dave Ihnat) writes: > Why don't you put this one where these types >of arguments belong, along with the "Emacs vs Vi" and "Unix vs VMS"-- >net.religion, because it sure isn't rational comparison, and nobody >whose articles I've read is going to be convinced by the other >side... Ummm....perhaps before you make these kind of statements about talk.religion.misc (I assume that is what "net.religion" refers to) you should back them up with facts....I know this is kind of off the subject, but some of us HAVE been convinced by the other side. I am now an atheist thanks, in part, to talk.religion.misc. But this is not just limited to that...I have been convinced that EMACS is a great editor, when at first I did not think so. I now of two other people who have been convinced that Emacs is better. I know of at least two people who have decided that they think VMS is superior to Unix, where originally they liked Unix more. This is not make known MY opinion, but to point out that this kind of discussion is NOT fruitless. It CAN change people's minds. It is a real shame that people like you continue in saying that it won't. -- Michael I. Bushnell a/k/a Bach II mike@turing.unm.edu {ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax!turing!mike --- I'm having a BIG BANG THEORY!! -- Zippy the Pinhead Michael I. Bushnell a/k/a Bach II mike@turing.unm.edu {ucbvax,gatech}!unmvax!turing!mike --- I'm having a BIG BANG THEORY!! -- Zippy the Pinhead
allbery@ncoast.UUCP (Brandon Allbery) (11/07/87)
Much quoting from <688@unmvax.unm.edu> by mike@turing.unm.edu (Michael I.
Bushnell) deleted; subject was a response to article <1781@chinet.UUCP>, where
ignatz@chinet (Dave Ihnat) suggests that the 3B2-vs.-Sun discussion be
relegated to "net.religion"...
Um, Mike, if I may intersperse a few comments in this discussion:
The "net.religion" bit is a comp-groups joke of sorts. Don't take it
literally. (Although your comment about it converting you to atheism can
be likened to my statement below; read on....)
As to trying to prevent such arguments: while some people CAN be converted by
these discussions, in general (and I've read some pretty long, verbose, and
wasteful ones since I joined the net) they are just the flames of fanatic
users of X against the fanatic users of Y and vice versa (for X and Y
substitute <VMS, Unix>, <Emacs, vi>, <3B2, Sun>, etc. ad nauseam), with few
people being converted to anything except the use of rn and its KILL files.
The cost to the backbone to transmit all of this excess verbiage just to
convert two people per month-long flame war is just not worth it.
--
Brandon S. Allbery necntc!ncoast!allbery@harvard.harvard.edu
{harvard!necntc,well!hoptoad,sun!mandrill!hal,uunet!hnsurg3}!ncoast!allbery
Moderator of comp.sources.misc