richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (09/09/87)
In article <20548@ucbvax.BERKELEY.EDU> oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu.UUCP (David Phillip Oster) writes: >In article <668@uokmax.UUCP> rob@uokmax.UUCP (Robert K. Shull) writes: >>Tsk, tsk. NEVER mention "Sun", "support", and "less money" all in the same >>breath. You're just asking for it. > >In case you are curious, here is a posting that appeared recently in the Sun [...] > >This is a rehashed topic, but with the base price of a 16" color Sun-3/60C >being under $10K ($9900), which translates to $6930 for those places lucky >enough to have 30% discounts, it's really time to start looking seriously >at this machine. The problem of course is that Sun is Not In The Disk Business >Thus, to get the minimum level of functionality out of the machine as a >standalone, you have to get the 141 Mbyte SCSI/ESDI disk & 60 Mbyte 1/4" tape. >This lists for $6500 (/$4550 @ 30%); in other words, almost 65-70% of the cost >of the machine itself. Ouch. > >(---- end included material ---) >so at $6500+$9900=$16,400.00 (list) or >$6930+$4550=$11,480.00 (university discount) for a usable bottom of the >line color sun, versus the Mac II prices, I know which I'd rather buy. > >So please, if you think the Sun is in the same price range as the Mac II, >think again before you post. They are two very different machines. [...] > >--- David Phillip Oster --My Good News: "I'm a perfectionist." DESKTOP TECHNICAL WORKSTATIONS (MONOCHROME) VS. PCs =================================================== SUN APOLLO VAX IBM APPLE --- ------ --- --- ----- Model 3/50M DN3000L 2000 PS 80-071 Mac II Chip MC68020 MC68020 uVAX78032 80386 MC68020 MIPS 1.5 1.2 0.9(1) 2.0 1.2 Max Mem 4MB ? ? 16MB 8MB Display 19" 19" 15" 12" 12" Res. 1152x900 1280x1024 1024x864 640x480 640x480 Disk 282MB 348MB 318MB 230MB 80MB Price(2) $9,995(3) $9,490(3) $11,300 $13,370 $13,350 (1) New systems to be announced at 3.0 MIPS (2) With 71 MB hard disk and cartridge tape (3) Available diskless with server for $5,000 less Source: Sun Microsystems and Apollo Computer Disclaimer: I read it in Infoworld, so it *must* be true. -- Richard J. Sexton INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard "It's too dark to put the key in my ignition..."
benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) (09/10/87)
In article <1475@gryphon.CTS.COM>, richard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) writes: > > SUN APOLLO VAX IBM APPLE > --- ------ --- --- ----- > Model 3/50M DN3000L 2000 PS 80-071 Mac II > Chip MC68020 MC68020 uVAX78032 80386 MC68020 > MIPS 1.5 1.2 0.9(1) 2.0 1.2 > Max Mem 4MB ? ? 16MB 8MB > Display 19" 19" 15" 12" 12" > Res. 1152x900 1280x1024 1024x864 640x480 640x480 > Disk 282MB 348MB 318MB 230MB 80MB > Price(2) $9,995(3) $9,490(3) $11,300 $13,370 $13,350 > > (1) New systems to be announced at 3.0 MIPS > (2) With 71 MB hard disk and cartridge tape > (3) Available diskless with server for $5,000 less > > Source: Sun Microsystems and Apollo Computer > > Richard J. Sexton This is a pretty good chart. I would add a few things. 1) Sun discounts heavily to Universities and companies - on the order of 15% or more. That $9995 turns into about $8K. I believe Apollo and Apple do likewise. I don't know about DEC and IBM. 2) Sun 3/50 come with a streaming backup tape drive(60 Meg tape). I don't know if you added that in. I *know* the MAC II tape drive is 40 Meg. 3) I work on Apollos. Their are many good things to say about them. But I wouldn't buy one if i was interested in Unix. On the other hand I have also looked at Sun's Unix and like it. Question : does Apollo bundle Fortran, Pascal and C with their operating system (like Sun) or do you have to buy those compilers? Same question about IBM, DEC and Apple. Second Sun also gives you NeWS for $100. and MIT X Windows. 4) Mac II comes standard with 2 Meg. Sun with 4 meg. Apollo with 2 meg ??(last i checked). 5) What is missing from this chart is the Sun 3/60. Which to me, is the most interesting machine of the batch. SUN APOLLO DEC IBM APPLE --- ------ ---- --- ----- Model 3/60 (Mono) DN3000L 2000 PS 80-071 Mac II Chip MC68020 (20 MHz) MIPS 3.0 Std Mem 4 2 ? ? ? 2 Max Mem 24MB Display 19"(1) Bitplanes 8 4 ? ? 4 Res. 1152x900 (2) Ethrnt std Y Y ? ? N Disk 72M std. (Max? 282MB) Price $12,900 undiscounted (1) 16" Color 1152x900 ; 19" Color 1152x900 ; 19" Mono 1600x1280 ; 19" Grayscale 1152x900 (2) Depends on monitor (monochrome given) 6) One missing ingredient in the chart is number of bitplanes. This is relatively important if you are doing graphics. 6) The chart looks like the machines come with 282M disks actually you must be talking about the maximum disk space available to the machine. 7) One really BAD thing about the Mac II (i don't know if this is true about the IBM) is that the resolution is HALF of the other machines. This means it will cost you $$ if you want to get up to the resolution of a Sun or Apollo. 8) The Sun 3/60 I believe comes with an Ethernet card already built in. (Correct me if I am wrong). I *know* the Sun 3/50 also has a built in Ethernet. Ethernet on the Mac II is $900. I believe but am not sure that Apollo is making it available as standard equipment (choice of Domain board or Ethernet). 9) The chart misses one important ingredient that is in the Mac II's favor. Something like 2500 Mac programs can be used with the Mac II. 10) Another thing missing from the chart is what type of buss the machines have. The Sun 3/50 is unexpandable...but then that why you can get a $5K diskless Sun. On the other hand Apollo DN3000 has an AT Bus.
peter@sugar.UUCP (09/14/87)
In article <1417@ssc-vax.UUCP>, benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) writes: > SUN APOLLO DEC IBM APPLE > --- ------ ---- --- ----- > Model 3/60 (Mono) DN3000L 2000 PS 80-071 Mac II ... > Bitplanes 8 4 ? ? 4 The Mac II supports 256 colors simultaneously. That seems awfully like 8 bit planes to me. -- -- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- 'U` ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Not seismo!soma (blush)
benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (09/18/87)
In article <719@sugar.UUCP>, peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: > In article <1417@ssc-vax.UUCP>, benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) writes: > > SUN APOLLO DEC IBM APPLE > > --- ------ ---- --- ----- > > Model 3/60 (Mono) DN3000L 2000 PS 80-071 Mac II > ... > > Bitplanes 8 4 ? ? 4 > The Mac II supports 256 colors simultaneously. That seems awfully like 8 > bit planes to me. Excuse my vagueness. The Mac II supports 256 colors simultaneously. Yes! But you have to buy an additional 4 bitplanes to bring it up to 8. Apollo it should also be mentioned can be broughtup to 8 bitplanes...but comes with 4.
oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu (David Phillip Oster) (09/18/87)
The MacII video board is an option. You don't have to buy one from apple.
Apple's is available with 4bits per pixel or, by adding more memory, 8bits
per pixel. In either case, these bits indirect through a color table.
The operating system supports multiple display cards with different parameters
you can have a window half on a black and white display, half on a color
display. drag it, and it does the right thing. There is operating system
support for multiple task arbitration of the hardware color table.
There is a socket on the motherboard for the Motorola MMU chip.
I find the MacII to be a great Macintosh, and I expect it will be an okay
Unix workstation. Sun makes great workstations, but they are lousy
Macintoshes (no Mac software will run on them :-). I've found I get a
lot more done on a Macintosh than on a Unix workstation.
--- David Phillip Oster --My Good News: "I'm a perfectionist."
Arpa: oster@dewey.soe.berkeley.edu --My Bad News: "I don't charge by the hour."
Uucp: {uwvax,decvax,ihnp4}!ucbvax!oster%dewey.soe.berkeley.edurichard@gryphon.CTS.COM (Richard Sexton) (09/19/87)
In article <719@sugar.UUCP> peter@sugar.UUCP (Peter da Silva) writes: >In article <1417@ssc-vax.UUCP>, benoni@ssc-vax.UUCP (Charles L Ditzel) writes: >> SUN APOLLO DEC IBM APPLE >> --- ------ ---- --- ----- >> Model 3/60 (Mono) DN3000L 2000 PS 80-071 Mac II >... >> Bitplanes 8 4 ? ? 4 > >The Mac II supports 256 colors simultaneously. That seems awfully like 8 >bit planes to me. Either that or they have one hell of a dithering scheme :-) >-- Peter da Silva `-_-' ...!hoptoad!academ!uhnix1!sugar!peter -- Richard J. Sexton INTERNET: richard@gryphon.CTS.COM UUCP: {hplabs!hp-sdd, sdcsvax, ihnp4, nosc}!crash!gryphon!richard "It's too dark to put the keys in my ignition..."