SEWALL@UCONNVM.BITNET (04/05/88)
Leonard Erickson <tektronix!reed!psu-cs!qiclab!leonard@ucbvax.Berkeley.EDU> writes: >Remember, HP *tried* to get a license. If I understand Apple's court papers (with documents written by lawyers one can never tell - recall Shakespeare's presciption for the cure of social ills "Kill all the lawyers."), Apple's problem is not with New Wave per se. New Wave is a licensed derivative of Windows 2.03; hence, if Windows 2.03 is found to be in violation of Apple's copyright it follows (doesn't it?) that any licensed derivative also must be in violation (regardless of how it is made to appear in default? That part at least, is curious). I did actually have occassion today to ask a legal scholar about the suit. He allowed as how his specialty is NOT copyright, but he has a Macintosh and a friend who showed him Windows. His reaction (impression, gut feel, etc.) was "Wow, Windows is a flat out copy of the Macintosh interface!!" He reminded me of how I felt when I first saw a copy of Print Master (a flat out copy of Print Shop - and we all know where that's led to). --------------------- Disclaimer: I like my opinions better than my employer's anyway... (subject to change without notice; void where prohibited) ARPA: sewall%uconnvm.bitnet@mitvma.mit.edu Murphy A. Sewall BITNET: SEWALL@UCONNVM School of Business Admin. UUCP: ...ihnp4!psuvax1!UCONNVM.BITNET!SEWALL University of Connecticut
leonard@qiclab.UUCP (Leonard Erickson) (04/06/88)
Well, whatever they come up as as being "the Mac interface" has to specificly *exclude* GEM!!!
aglew@urbsdc.Urbana.Gould.COM (04/11/88)
..> Apple vs. HP I would like to start a suit against Apple for violating the Xerox user interface. I would gladly contribute 50-100$ to it, and I bet there are many people out there who feel similarly. Does anyone have any idea as to how to get this rolling? Please copy to any newsgroup you feel appropriate, ie. any newsgroup that has seen the Apple vs. the world wars. I'm serious. (Oh, I don't use news, so don't get the mass cross posting effect you lot do). aglew@gould.com
david@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (David Robinson) (04/12/88)
In article <29300003@urbsdc>, aglew@urbsdc.Urbana.Gould.COM writes: > > ..> Apple vs. HP > > I would like to start a suit against Apple for violating > the Xerox user interface. I would gladly contribute 50-100$ > to it, and I bet there are many people out there who feel > similarly. Does anyone have any idea as to how to get this > rolling? Not that I agree with Apple's lawsuit on its legal or ethical grounds but there is a LARGE misconception that Apple "stole" the Xerox user interface. This is not true! Apple signed licensing agreements with Xerox and hired away a few of the Xerox people who worked on the user interfaces. In a related story, AT&T has announced a new "User Friendly" Unix user interface that is to be designed by Sun & Xerox jointly. Comments in the WSJ article stated that they had no fear of suit by Apple since they were licensing direct from Xerox as Apple did originally. -- David Robinson elroy!david@csvax.caltech.edu ARPA david@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov ARPA {cit-vax,ames}!elroy!david UUCP Disclaimer: No one listens to me anyway!
papa@pollux.usc.edu (Marco Papa) (04/13/88)
In article <6177@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov| david@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (David Robinson) writes: |In article <29300003@urbsdc|, aglew@urbsdc.Urbana.Gould.COM writes: || || ..| Apple vs. HP || || I would like to start a suit against Apple for violating || the Xerox user interface. I would gladly contribute 50-100$ || to it, and I bet there are many people out there who feel || similarly. Does anyone have any idea as to how to get this || rolling? | |Not that I agree with Apple's lawsuit on its legal or ethical |grounds but there is a LARGE misconception that Apple |"stole" the Xerox user interface. This is not true! Apple |signed licensing agreements with Xerox and hired away a few ^^^^^^^^^ ^^^^^^^^^^ ^^^ The only thing that Apple licensed from XEROX was Smalltalk-80. Lots of other companies did this as well, including some of the ones involved in the suit. The use of the word "stole" referring to the user interface is morally valid, in my opinion, since they did indeed copy all of the ideas that were in Smalltalk-80 and the XEROX Star. Using the same tactic that Apple uses I could create a SmallTalk-80 screen and a Mac screen that would look abosultely identical, even more than the Mac versus NewWave. Note that Steve Jobs himself acknowledged that they "borrowed" XEROX's ideas AND visual interface when doing the Mac. |of the Xerox people who worked on the user interfaces. A few? They hired all the key people away from Xerox. If Xerox was as prone to litigation as Apple is (see Apple vs. Steve Jobs) they could have sued Apple and stopped them from using the mac user interface. Note that still today XEROX licenses Smalltalk-80 for peanuts. I like the idea of a "user-initiated" suit against Apple. It is simply ludicrous to even think about what Apple is doing. For myself, I'd support a complete boycott of all Apple products. Already if anybody asks me about which computer he should buy, I tell them "anything besides Apple, stay away from those jerks". And I've not seen anywhere reported the quote from Sculley own's book in which he says that "Apple would be crazy to sue Microsoft". The last famous words. -- Marco -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= uucp:...!pollux!papa BIX:papa ARPAnet:pollux!papa@oberon.usc.edu "There's Alpha, Beta, Gamma and Diga!" -- Leo Schwab [quoting Rick Unland] -=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=
dca@kesmai.COM (David C. Albrecht) (04/14/88)
In article <6177@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov>, david@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (David Robinson) writes: > In article <29300003@urbsdc>, aglew@urbsdc.Urbana.Gould.COM writes: > > > > ..> Apple vs. HP > > > > I would like to start a suit against Apple for violating > > the Xerox user interface. I would gladly contribute 50-100$ > > to it, and I bet there are many people out there who feel > > similarly. Does anyone have any idea as to how to get this > > rolling? > > Not that I agree with Apple's lawsuit on its legal or ethical > grounds but there is a LARGE misconception that Apple > "stole" the Xerox user interface. This is not true! Apple > signed licensing agreements with Xerox... I was at the west coast computer show and had an interesting conversation with a gentleman of the press who was employed by xerox for roughly 10 years. On the subject of licensing, he said that he called the Xerox legal department when this all came out and was informed that the ONLY license which Apple has for anything is for Smalltalk (which HP got at the same time by the way). He also conjectured as to why Xerox has never tried to press their rights to the concepts which Apple continually tries to claim. In the not too distant past Xerox got raked over the coals because they had the Xerographic market locked up because they had most of the pertinent patents. The patents were essentially taken away from them despite the fact that they were certainly valid. I suspect as attractive as the idea is, Xerox will not want to get involved in a suit with Apple which will be unquestionably expensive and protracted especially when none of their products are at stake. I too am getting rather tired of Apple trying to keep market share by holding everyone else back through legal harassment instead of advancing their own position through innovation. Innovation requires talent, harassment just requires lawyers and money. An independent suit against Apple would certainly be a great news getter and would properly drag their image through the mud (which in my opinion it should be). It is not clear to me, however, whether such a suit would be legally supportable without Xerox. David Albrecht
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu (04/14/88)
I wonder how your legal scholar friend would feel about the Xerox Star,
Suntools, and other window-based operating system interfaces. As a
less-experienced computer user, he might react the same way to all of
them.
Mike Berger
Department of Statistics
Science, Technology, and Society
University of Illinois
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu
{ihnp4 | convex | pur-ee}!uiucuxc!clio!bergergreggy@infmx.UUCP (greg yachuk) (04/16/88)
In article <6177@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov>, david@elroy.Jpl.Nasa.Gov (David Robinson) writes: > In a related story, AT&T has announced a new "User Friendly" > Unix user interface that is to be designed by Sun & Xerox > jointly. Comments in the WSJ article stated that they had no > fear of suit by Apple since they were licensing direct from > Xerox as Apple did originally. > > -- > David Robinson elroy!david@csvax.caltech.edu ARPA > david@elroy.jpl.nasa.gov ARPA > {cit-vax,ames}!elroy!david UUCP > Disclaimer: No one listens to me anyway! I'm not sure about this new interface, but if it is OPEN LOOK (joint announcement by AT&T and Sun earlier this week), it's already designed. (The layout, that is, not necessarily the software to drive it!!! :-) (I have heard about this joint Sun/Xerox announcement, but am not really sure what they are going to do). I attended a demo of Open Look at Sun in Mountain View a couple of weeks ago. They had obviously made an effort to preserve the Window metaphor while changing enough details to keep from getting sued. One nice addition is the "pushpin". Essentially, you can skewer anything (dialog box, menu, etc) with a pin and keep it visible (and move it to somewhere handy). Might sound like a minor thing but it might be convenient for reference (to a menu) or to move a menu pulldown to someplace (like lower left corner for instance). Greg Yachuk Informix Software Inc., Menlo Park, CA (415) 322-4100 {uunet,pyramid}!infmx!greggy !yes, I chose that login myself, wazit tooya? So, like, uh, where do you guys get all these way cool .sig's, anyways?
aglew@urbsdc.Urbana.Gould.COM (04/19/88)
Well, I seem to have struck a sympathetic chord with the proposal
to start a user-initiated suit against Apple for violating the
Xerox user interface. I am, frankly, inexperienced in such things,
but it seems to me that a good way to begin would be by collecting
support. Email is nice, but it would probably be more impressive
to get physical mail. Also, I will want to keep this very much
away from my employer's system (this may be my last post from this
address for a while on this subject, until I get an account at
university or elsewhere).
So, how about this:
(1) Send me physical mail, a letter saying that you deplore
Apple's attempts to copyright look and feel, and would
support a suit on behalf of Xerox.
Include your email address so that we might be able to
get some orchestration going.
My address is below.
(2) Send a copy of the same letter to your congressman
('Fraid I can't do that - maybe the INS will cancel my
visa for this?)
(3) Send a copy of the same letter to Apple, Xerox, HP and
Microsoft corporate headquarters. I'll try to come up
with addresses next posting.
In the meantime, I will be looking for a lawyer who can start
a preliminary investigation of the case (or as much as can be
done with the few dollars I have at hand).
DO NOT SEND MONEY yet - we don't know if there is anything
to spend money on.
Address:
Andy Glew
806 Kerr #204
Urbana, Illinois 61801
This posting, and most of my other opinions, are by no means
related to my employer.