dana@gmu90x.UUCP (J Dana Eckart) (06/15/88)
Like a great many people I am in search of the "perfect" system. More
to the point, I want to find a Unix* machine for not much money. I would
like to think that "not much money" could be translated into about $3000
(or even less :-)), but I have my doubts.
Two lines of attack of which I am aware are:
(1) get the more expensive Unix products (~ $1500 for the whole
thing) that work on a wide variety of hardware, or
(2) get a cheaper Unix (Bell Technologies sells one for ~ $400)
that runs on more restricted hardware (Bell sells a version
of the required 80386 hardware for ~$6000, minus hard disk).
Since the driving force is to have Unix, I thought I would ask the net
the current state of affairs. Am I asking for too much (a sick feeling
in the pit of my stomach suggests that I am ... sigh)? Please mail me
your suggestions, pieces of wisdom and confirmations of my worst fears.
[NOTE: I have purposely left other "system" requirements vague, so as
not to further restrict suggestions.]
Thanks in advance.
*Unix is a registered trademark of AT&T Bell Laboratories.
J Dana Eckart
UUCP: ...!(gatech | pyrdc)!gmu90x!dana
ARPA: dana@gmu90x.gmu.edu
SNAIL: P.O. Box 236/Fairfax, VA 22030-0236cck@deneb.ucdavis.edu (Earl H. Kinmonth) (06/16/88)
In article <1150@gmu90x.UUCP> dana@gmu90x.UUCP (J Dana Eckart) writes: >to the point, I want to find a Unix* machine for not much money. I would >like to think that "not much money" could be translated into about $3000 SCO Xenix on an ATT 63** is a reasonable approximation of UNIX, perhaps even better than the real thing, since XENIX has a cross compiler for MSDOS. Including the whole OS, you could come in under three grand.
davidsen@steinmetz.ge.com (William E. Davidsen Jr) (06/16/88)
In article <1150@gmu90x.UUCP> dana@gmu90x.UUCP (J Dana Eckart) writes: | Like a great many people I am in search of the "perfect" system. More | to the point, I want to find a Unix* machine for not much money. I would Don't buy a 286 machine. Although I have used one for years, there are too many problems caused by (a) segmented archetecture and (b) people assuming that int{same as}ptr. I have a 386 at home, running Xenix. I tested the SVR3 ports from mport and INteractive systems, and decided that they were not appropriate for me, since I need reliability. Their preponents claim that's all fixed now. I'm told that the BellTech port has no "enhancements" and works reliably. If you want real bottom bucks, get a unix-pc, which gives you a linear address space, sysV+BSD utils, and virtual memory. Not fast but solid. A 2MB mem, 40MB disk version is ~$1500 + about $500 for software. Includes a builtin 1200 baud modem. -- bill davidsen (wedu@ge-crd.arpa) {uunet | philabs | seismo}!steinmetz!crdos1!davidsen "Stupidity, like virtue, is its own reward" -me
erict@flatline.UUCP (j eric townsend) (06/16/88)
In article <1150@gmu90x.UUCP>, dana@gmu90x.UUCP (J Dana Eckart) writes: > Like a great many people I am in search of the "perfect" system. More > to the point, I want to find a Unix* machine for not much money. I would > like to think that "not much money" could be translated into about $3000 > (or even less :-)), but I have my doubts. I suggest an AT&T UNIX-PC running the latest release of UNIX (3.51a?) that is out. The post-fire-sale prices are really good. Used is amazingly better. (I got a slightly used 3b1 (67Mb HD, 2Mb RAM) for about $1000.) A post on unix-pc.general would get you a good idea of the relative merits and problems with unix pc's from a wide range of people. -- Skate UNIX or go home, boogie boy... Spelling errors are directly related to how little time I have... J. Eric Townsend ->uunet!nuchat!flatline!erict smail:511Parker#2,Hstn,Tx,77007 ..!bellcore!tness1!/
jeff@wdl1.UUCP (Jonathan J. Jefferies) (06/21/88)
Dana This might not interest you at all but will send it out to you on the maybe. There have been several orphan types of unix boxes around. I currently use a callan and there has been at least one from AT&T itself that sold for $1,750. The main problem with these machines is that they are dated for their original purposes. Mine corresponds to an early 68000 based sun and runs System V version 4.2. But it does have all the trimings including a number of languages, assemblers, and the like. I'm not sure about the machine from AT&T - all I do know is that it was advertised in "Uni-Ops" books, Boonville, Ca (707) 895-2050. There are a series of tradeoffs I suppose we have to make between our intended uses and our pocket books. The callans have worn fairly well. My main problem has been disk drives (Micropolis 1304's) which in a couple of cases have gone well past their rated 40,000 hour mtbf. My machines were the larger versions that callan built but their are still a number of these out their available. I'm including some notes I sent out to some folks a while back just for curiousity's sake. It may be that this is not the right answer to your question or that I mis-understood you. Jeff Hi: Well this is something like paydirt, 2 responses in 1 day, perhaps I should send out messages more often on the net. A historical review of Callan computers with comments: In its short life Callan spurted out a series of computers- all with similar but different hardware & software. Probably this was and probably still is an undocumented feature of computer companies. But briefly callan put out at least some 4 versions of the hardware and at least two software versions and was working on a 5 th hardware system when they bit the dust. First of all, all of their hardware used the Multi-bus I for a system bus and then used some unused lines to define an internal cpu bus. Thus the cards are Multi-bus and standard Multi-bus cards (those that address 24 bits) can be used at least for i/o. In terms of hardware systems there was: 1. the terminal - you probably have one of in your system. It has many similarities to the vt-100 and is on a single card with screen and keyboard and was marketed as the Unistar 100 and later included as the terminal/workstation with the Unistar 200 series. 2. The Unistar 200, which came in two varieties: the PM68k cpu board model and the CD68k cpu board model. My machines all run with the latter. The main differences seem to be that the PM68k comes from Pacific Micro who is still in business and can fix your cpu board and even sell you an upgrade to the 68020 I believe. Or at least some addon board. The pm68k had some on board memory (256 -512k I believe) and may have had limitations as to how much it could address off board. The CD68k was Callan's own contribution to the confusion. The CD68k board differs in that it has no on-board memory. But it can address a magnificent 2 megabytes of memory, if you had the money. The later Unistar 200's also had larger disk drives, Micropolis 1304 which formatted to 43 megs. Both of the machines had 4 serial ports, one was for the Unistar-100 terminal interface, two were lead out the back of the machine, and one was left hanging - it had to have the same baud rate as one of the others. There were a variety of hardware boards available, including: a graphics interface card, floppy disk controllers, add. memory an smd hard disk controller, a combined floppy-streamer tape interface, several different serial controllers, an ST-506 disk controller, and probably some others. The internal cpu data path was 16 bits and made use of the multi-bus P-2 connector. The dynamic ram however was refreshed in all of the 200-machines by the cpu. The external multi- bus data path was either 8 or 16 bits. 3. Then the fourth hardware series (if you count the two versions of the Unistar 200 separately) was the Magnificient UNISTAR 300. Which was a Unistar 200 disguised as a mini-computer with no terminal built in but with expanded power supply, space for 4 (count them) micropolis 1304 drieves (4x43 megabytes), and a cypher streaming tape drive. I have had one of these given to me and I'm not sure whether it was a blessing or a curse. 4. And in the development stage but not yet ready for prime time was the CD68012 - (no there's no mistake I don't mean a 68020 but rather a motorolla 68012 processor ). Motorolla by the way is phasing (a polite term) this processor out. It is basically a 68010 processor with a few extra address lines led out to permit it to address 2 giga- bytes of ram. Of course Callan was going all out and upgrading its memory address space to 8 megabytes. A chap I know on the east coast sent me one for entertainment value. And there is a fellow in Palo Alto who has a number of the ram boards - minus the ram, the rising cost of 256k chips drove him to part with them- from the Callan auction. Speaking of social events the Callan auction was a great gathering of Callan connoisseurs. Actually I shouldn't complain as I am using mine for the same purpose that someone else proposed - education and enlightenment. On the software scene, Callan had come out with two versions of unix. Both of these were largely a product of Microsoft. The first which was ported to the PM68k board was system 7. The second was system V rev 4.2 for the CD68K series. It is this latter hunk of software that I am busily tearing into. I have been obtaining source code, disassembling the reconfiguration object modules and locating forgotten notes of obsolete lore to try and figure out what and why they (callan) did what they did. Talk about an archeological dig and it was only 1985 when they went belly up. But in 3 years you would be supprised at what happens to whale blubber. To be a little less flip about it the Callan's were probably as good as the rest of the market at the time and mine have worn relatively well. I used the Unistar 300 to teach an intro to unix class at DeAnza (a junior college in Sunnyvale) ( if you can actually imagine a college teaching computers without a computer) and after I left they kept the machine and left it run for a year. When I went to reclaim it there was sawdust inside from some construction work they had done and still the beast was running and I doubt that they turned it off except for christmas break. Now the old punch line some bad news and some good. You will probably find that the PM68K machines, software and hardware, are compatible with mine only with some difficulty, i.e. my object and task images will cause a core dump when run under system7. By the same token the disassemblies of the reconfiguration code is probably not directly applicable to sys 7, though you are welcome to it. However, in the course of my meanderings and at the Callan auction, I have run into a number of folks with the Callan PM68k machines. There is a good size group (6) at U.C. Santa Barbara. Unfortunately they aren't hackers and the machines have basically been shelved, the rodime drives are just adequate. I also know of one fellow who is also interested in upgrading his machine So I may be able to put you in touch with him. Now on the really helpful side I did lay my pinkies on some software which - both for the earlier system 7 (properly Unix System 3 version 7) and the later Unix System V. Much of the latter came with one or more of my machines. Also I have some copies of various hardware documents - which ain't always what one would need much less desire but do what we can with what we have. The question is what hardware do you have and which system are you running. I'm willing to share the software for the cost of reproducing and mailing. The documentation I'm willing to mail out (at your cost) and allow you to duplicate. It would be nice if we complete strangers could share these things. I would like to have a few others out there interested in these arcane objects. Anyway here is a summary of the software I have with comments: ** System 3 version 7 (or just system 7) Pascal compiler, Fortran 77, basic+, and unicalc (a spreadsheet). Also I have some documentation on the PM68k cpu board - which you may already have. ** System V Ada, fortran 77, 68k motorolla assembler (different than the unix one), cobol compiler, basic+, qone (a word processor), qcalc(spread sheet), callan graphics(useful if you have the callan graphics board which emulates a tektronix 4010), reconfiguration files (these are object modules which allow you to relink unix and thereby reduce the size or add in new drivers), unify (database ) <the data base and word processor haven't been too useful. ** hardware documentation: I have manuals on most of the hardware and enough copies to chance lending it out if given some assurances of having it returned. ** IN RETURN** I would expect that the borrowers pay for shipping to and fro and for materials used in duplication. ** also there is a chap, Richard Kinch, who still makes some profit selling and refurbishing at ridiculious prices Callan computers. I recommend him only as a last resort and after having exhausted all other remedies. Huch as the net. But he will send you a catalog (2 sheets with prices) he is at 501 S. Meadow St., Ithaca, N.Y., telephone (607) 273-0222. There are als o some other purveyers of junk who occasionally have Callan parts,one, in Palo Alto, has smd disk controller boards for the callan ($150), and the 4 mega byte boards(ramless) ($50). So if you were interested in some real hacking we might be able to hit them up for some reduced prices in return for taking this obviously not good to anyone junk off their hands at our own risk. However, for disks I think the best bet is to alter the disk driver so as to be able to use (st-506) disks other than then rodime or micropolis. If you have a liberty bay disk controller card then what I am doing may be of interest The reconfiguration files indicate that there is also an msc controller card but do not have the object modules to include it. Not sure what this means. Looking forward to hearing from you. p.s. the two names I currently have received are: krohn@ctt.ctt.bellcore.com (Eric Krohn) and sgi!ames!elroy!jplgodo!wlbr!pete (Pete)
rmb384@leah.Albany.Edu (Robert M. Bownes III) (06/29/88)
In article <1150@gmu90x.UUCP>, dana@gmu90x.UUCP (J Dana Eckart) writes: > Like a great many people I am in search of the "perfect" system. More > to the point, I want to find a Unix* machine for not much money. I would > like to think that "not much money" could be translated into about $3000 > (or even less :-)), but I have my doubts. > Used Sun 2's can be had for about 3K. I'm trying to accomplish this at the moment by selling of my Xenix System. They are usually only slightly diskfull for that cost however. Bob -- Bob Bownes, Aka Keptin Comrade Dr Bobwrench III | If I didn't say it, It bownesrm@beowulf.uucp (518)-482-8798 | must be true. {steinmetz,brspyr1,sun!sunbow}!beowulf!bownesrm | - me, tonite -
berger@clio.UUCP (07/01/88)
I've seen a couple of diskless Sun-2's for under $ 1000. Be patient!
I've seen a couple of diskless Sun-2's for under $ 1000. Be patient!
Mike Berger
Department of Statistics
Science, Technology, and Society
University of Illinois
berger@clio.las.uiuc.edu
{ihnp4 | convex | pur-ee}!uiucuxc!clio!bergerisaac@gethen.UUCP (Isaac Rabinovitch) (07/01/88)
In article <1150@gmu90x.UUCP>, dana@gmu90x.UUCP (J Dana Eckart) writes: > Like a great many people I am in search of the "perfect" system. More > to the point, I want to find a Unix* machine for not much money. I would > like to think that "not much money" could be translated into about $3000 > (or even less :-)), but I have my doubts. It probably helps to live in close proximity to failed attempts to manufacture Unix-oriented micros. Often (including this very Thursday) I see ads (in the San Jose Mercury-News) for used Convergent MiniFrames (manufactured in San Jose) right in your price range. Perhaps some have drifted into your area. You should also look in Unix World and other magazines with Unix in the title: they often have ads for mail order houses (caveat emptor) selling orphan machines.