ray@bcsaic.UUCP (Ray Allis) (01/30/88)
I am a NS32000 microprocessor enthusiast and a computer hobbyist. I am also frustrated by the lack of inexpensive computers based on this family of cpu's. The architecture is a dream to use and would make a fantastic computer to teach and learn about modern computing techniques. Unfortunately NATIONAL seems to be doing all it can to commit suicide in the marketplace. Their marketing department is constantly being reorganized. All the regional offices are only interested in committing you to LARGE quantity orders. If this cpu family is ever to get the popularity it deserves National is going to have to make friends with the little guys and hobbyists like INTEL and MOTOROLA. There must be some small electronics companies that would like to design a computer kit with the following specs: o 32332 and/or 32532 processor, coprocessors and support chips o memory expansion to 16 MB o A new 32 bit buss for I/O expansion options designed with speed and low cost in mind. o Maybe a PC/XT footprint or fit into a PS-2 clone tower box I would like to see expansion modules for the I/O buss in the following categories: o 32 bit 1024 x 1024 x 8 video controller designed around the TMS34010 or HITACHI video chips for mono or color. o SCSI Disk controller for ESDI or ST506 winchester hard disks with on board floppy controller. o Ethernet controller with lots of memory and smarts. o Multi port serial / parallel I/O board I am off my soap box now, Comments are appreciated. Send response to the address below: Mike Prezbindowski Boeing Computer Services (206) 234-1328 Ray Allis ray@boeing.com -- Ray Allis Boeing Computer Services, Boeing Aerospace Company Support Division CSNET: ray@boeing.com UUCP: uw-june!bcsaic!ray
grenley@nsc.nsc.com (George Grenley) (02/02/88)
It's nice to see some fans out there for our chips. Maybe I can help Ray out a little... In article <3703@bcsaic.UUCP> ray@bcsaic.UUCP (Ray Allis) writes: >I am a NS32000 microprocessor enthusiast and a computer hobbyist. Great! >I am also frustrated by the lack of inexpensive computers based on this >family of cpu's. We're not exactly thrilled, either. NSC would like to see a low cost machine based on 32xxx, but we can't do it ourselves. Note that neither Mot nor Intel are in the low bucks computer biz... >The architecture is a dream to use and would make a >fantastic computer to teach and learn about modern computing techniques. Your best bet would probably be the Opus add in board for IBM PC. There are both 32032 and 32332 versions. The run Unix V. Price is in the several K$ range, though. Still, it is the cheapest Unix platform you can get. (PC Xenix doesn't count, it isn't unix) >Unfortunately NATIONAL seems to be doing all it can to commit suicide in >the marketplace. Their marketing department is constantly being reorganized. No comment. (tee hee hee :-) ) But seriously, folks, I have some reasons to believe that the situation is improving over there in bldg 16. Watch this space for developemnts. >All the regional offices are only interested in committing you to LARGE >quantity orders. Please understand the nature of our business and how the field is run. The field people get paid commission. They're in this for the money, not out of a sense of Christian Missionary Zeal. It is unreal and unfair to expect them to expend a lot of their time on customers with small potential sales. Distributors do that, and we also have the designer kits. I worked in the field for many years, so I know whereof I speak. One guy got real nasty when his Radio Shack TRS-80 wouldn't work and called Mostek where I worked and actually expected us to fix it. (Mostek made the Z80 for Radio Shack) Getting rid of that clown without hurting his feelings wasn't easy, so I hurt his feelings... Anyway, don't be too hard on the field people. Their lives are busy enough as it is. >If this cpu family is ever to get the popularity it deserves National is >going to have to make friends with the little guys and hobbyists like INTEL >and MOTOROLA. Intel and Mot are Hobbyists??? 8-) But seriously, Intel and Mot are rich because IBM and Apple (and Sun, ad nauseum) like them, not because of hobbyists. Hobbyists have always like Z-80s but Zilog ain't rich... >There must be some small electronics companies that would like to design a >computer kit with the following specs: [Description of system deleted] It sounds like a nice box. A lot of that is already available on VME cards. Owl Computers, in San Diego, makes one. There will also be a bunch of announcements at Buscon at the end of Feb, so stay tuned... Thank you for Your Support, George Grenley - person in charge of stuff NSC, home of the world's fastest CPU, the32532 If you think I speak for NSC you are nuts - I get chewed out everytime I post.
agnew@trwrc.UUCP (R.A. Agnew) (02/06/88)
In article <4953@nsc.nsc.com> grenley@nsc.UUCP (George Grenley) writes: > >>I am also frustrated by the lack of inexpensive computers based on this >>family of cpu's. > >We're not exactly thrilled, either. NSC would like to see a low cost >machine based on 32xxx, but we can't do it ourselves. Note that neither >Mot nor Intel are in the low bucks computer biz... > >>There must be some small electronics companies that would like to design a >>computer kit with the following specs: > > [Description of system deleted] > About a year ago the PD32 appeared in MicroCornucopia. This board was based on a NS32016 (unfortunately) and has a port of System V.2 by Dave Rand. I bought the bare board from Definicon and built up a 1 megabyte card for about $300. The board works pretty similar to the Definicon DSI-32 or the Opus board. Anyone who has a garage and a PC with a Schematic capture Cad/layout program could come up with a killer 32532 board, standalone with SCSI ports for just a few k$. The problem with low-cost is the $995 that National wants for the '532. There will be announcements in the next few months that will make the '532 look silly, so I'd wait. [Nobody is responsible for anything I say, especially me]
jon@jim.odr.oz (Jon Wells) (02/08/88)
Yes
I'd like a 32k box at home instead of the silly Pc I have.
Yes
The company that I work (?) for has a big box full of 32k parts
that no one will ever use (I've forgotten why we brought them).
Yes
I've thought about designing some hardware, in fact I did
quite a lot of work on it late one night when I was to drunk
to know better.
Yes
I would be quite happy to sit down a finish such a design and
make the results public domain. I'd even get a lot of help from
other interested people just around here. Pcb's could be made
available at cost+post, people that could solder could help their
friends that can't etc. Just I like old days of S100 buss CPM systems.
Great but then what!!!
My pocket money doesn't stretch to the $US50k for a Unix source Lic.
and I don't really have enough spare(?) time to port it even if I did know
where to start.
The National people in this country wouldn't know if their whatsit
was on fire, so their not going to be of any help.
So a lump of hardware without any software is just another pile
of junk.
Maybe we have to wait until the FSF people get GNU finished.
Maybe we should ALL be helping them!!!
Maybe National could offer to help with such a thing.
It could be good for them if it was a reasonable box and if it
was I think you might find a few people apart from the odd
hardware hackers using it.
Maybe I'll just live with the Pc at home until I win a lottery,
then I'll go buy a Sun!
Any other ideas folks?
jon
--
Jon Wells @ O'Dowd Research P/L. ACSnet: jon@jim.odr.oz
752 Springvale Road. Mulgrave, UUCP: ..uunet!munnari!jim.oz!jon
Victoria,Australia, 3170 ARPA: jon%jim.oz@UUNET.UU.NET
Phone: 03-562-0100 Fax: 03-562-0616bcd@psueclb.BITNET (02/09/88)
I would like to know what you mean by "there will be annoucements in the next
several months that will make the '532 look silly." Are you refering to
annoucements of new processors in other families or new processors in the
32000 family? Surely you don't mean something like the 68030 et al.
------------
Bryan Davis (BCD@PSUECL)
Engineering Computer Laboratory
Pennsylvania State University
phil@amdcad.AMD.COM (Phil Ngai) (02/17/88)
In article <193@jim.odr.oz> jon@jim.odr.oz (Jon Wells) writes: >Great but then what!!! > >My pocket money doesn't stretch to the $US50k for a Unix source Lic. >and I don't really have enough spare(?) time to port it even if I did know >where to start. I don't have any ideas with regard to the lack of time, but if it's merely Unix source license restrictions preventing you from working on a processor you wanted to use, it might be possible to do something. The vendor of the chip could let you use one of their systems which was licensed. And that system could be in your house or wherever you want. Of course, that system would be the property of the vendor, and so would the work you did (this is because of AT&T licensing restrictions). But if what you did was valuable enough, you'd get compensation for it. Such as leaving the system "on loan" in your house for a long time. Or whatever. Is this interesting? -- I speak for myself, not the company. Phil Ngai, {ucbvax,decwrl,allegra}!amdcad!phil or phil@amd.com
grenley@nsc.nsc.com (George Grenley) (02/18/88)
It's nice to hear from so many potential friends out there... In article <193@jim.odr.oz> jon@jim.odr.oz (Jon Wells) writes: >My pocket money doesn't stretch to the $US50k for a Unix source Lic. It doesn't??? 8-) National is developing a binary reconfigurable Unix (ie you don't gotta buy a source license). It won't be ready for a few months, and I don't know what the price will be, except << 50K, but hey, it's a start. Also, a gentlemen from Sweden posted here recently that their computer club had a Unix distribution for something around $300-400, or so. Last but not least, as you may have heard, Heurikon is developing a 32532 VME board. I imagine (but don't know) if they'll do Unix for it - you could ask... >The National people in this country wouldn't know if their whatsit >was on fire, so their not going to be of any help. Oh, dear, another "happy" customer... 8-) >Maybe National could offer to help with such a thing. > It could be good for them if it was a reasonable box and if it > was I think you might find a few people apart from the odd > hardware hackers using it. Actually, we would help. Possibly. NSC has a partners program for 32000 family products, and if it makes business sense (read $$$) we might be able to do something. Speaking unofficially here, though, I can say that we would want to see a plan from a reliable source, not an unknown (Jon, I'm not saying you are an unknown - just that the typical undergarduate engineering project is NOT what we're looking for) >Maybe I'll just live with the Pc at home until I win a lottery, > then I'll go buy a Sun! For shame, for shame! Buy one of our 532 Unix boxes - it's much faster than a Sun (even Sparc), and it will keep me employed!!! Remember: NSC 32532 - "All the performance without the Risc!" George Grenley person in charge of stuff like the VME532 NSC
drew@wolf.UUCP (Drew Dean) (02/19/88)
This world does NEED a CHEAP single-user Unix box !!! Computer
Science students everywhere would line up in groves if someone put together a
32 bit (=> 10Mhz) CPU, MMU, and a 40Mb hard drive together with a binary Unix
license for $1500. IBM AT clones are the only <$2000 Unix machines available,
and I don't think I need to make any more snide comments about the 286 :-).
As a current high school senior, I bought a Mac SE last fall, which I am
dearly in love with, if only because it's so productive for all the other things
I need a computer to do. With Apple's pricing of A/UX, it's going to be cheaper
to pay for as much VAX time as I can use. (I include the cost of 68020 upgrade
or buying a Mac II in this.) I don't want an AT, but a 32032 (or 32332[?] :-))
would be nice to have. It doesn't have to run too fast, as it would strictly
be a single user machine, and 1 Mb RAM would probably be enough for useful
work (especially without graphics), but it should be expandable....
Real proposal: As the 32xxx series have not been exactly an over-
whelming commercial success (Please, no flames, just correct me, but I can't
think of any major systems in the US that use 32xxx MPUs), why doesn't
National Semiconductor take this opportunity to recoup a little with a small
Unix box on their old, relatively slow parts. The design would best be put
in the public domain, so anyone with time could build it, or buy PC boards/
assembled systems from somebody making a little profit....
The only problem left is Unix. Maybe GNU will be finished by the
time the hardware gets done, or maybe someone will need to distribute a
binary license inexpensively (<= $200). How much has NS recouped on the costs
of its Unix port ? Does anyone else have 32xxx Unix that their about to
write off, and would love to make $1 million on over a few years ?
I very much think that this market could take a few thousand units a
year, small by commercial standards, but from what I've seen, it would double/
triple the number of 32xxx systems in use....
If nobody does anything, I'll probably find out which brand of high
speed modems the applicable Academic Computing Center supports and buy one,
as the best price/performance ratio possible (vi at 1200 baud isn't particulary
fun).
Drew Dean
UUCP: {sdcsvax,ihnp4}!jack!wolf!drew
FROM Disclaimers IMPORT StandardDisclaimer;pekka@mystefix.liu.se (Pekka Akselin [The Mad Midnight Hacker]) (02/20/88)
In article <193@jim.odr.oz> you write: >Yes > I'd like a 32k box at home instead of the silly Pc I have. Good. I like the ns32k too, it's very nice. >My pocket money doesn't stretch to the $US50k for a Unix source Lic. >and I don't really have enough spare(?) time to port it even if I did know >where to start. There is the MINIX os. As I recall there are some people in US that are going to (allready ready with it?) port MINIX to a ns32k based machine. I think it was an ICM-3216 card, but any ns32k hardware should work due to the orthogonality in the ns32k. Building hardware around the ns32332 CPU and the ns32382 MMU would be very nice. And memory should be, at least, 4Mbyte. >Maybe we have to wait until the FSF people get GNU finished. >Maybe we should ALL be helping them!!! Yes. Unfortunaltely I'm too unexperienced in C to participate. I'm too busy with my exam and my work too. >Maybe I'll just live with the Pc at home until I win a lottery, > then I'll go buy a Sun! Poor dear fellow. /pekka [...The Mad Midnight Hacker Strikes Again...] ______________________________________________________________________________ pekka@majestix.liu.se ...!uunet!enea!liuida!majestix!pekka Pekka Akselin, Univ. of Linkoping, Sweden (The Land Of The Midnight Hacker 8-) Bus error (core dumped)
jon@jim.odr.oz (Jon Wells) (02/24/88)
In article <20411@amdcad.AMD.COM>, phil@amdcad.AMD.COM (Phil Ngai) writes: > In article <193@jim.odr.oz> jon@jim.odr.oz (Jon Wells) writes: > >Great but then what!!! > > The vendor of the chip could let you use one of their systems which > was licensed. And that system could be in your house or wherever you > This article is perhaps the best response I received. It is the best response only because it's the least likely! All but one or two letters have basically said....... "what's your problem, you can get a binary licence etc. etc." [the following is just a pet gripe skip it if you like] You must understand that this is the wrong side of the world to try such things. I doubt that you even need fingers to count the number of people at NS Aust. that have USED a unix system. Expecting them to have a machine AND the source to lend to anyone let alone a no one like me is just not on. It's not NS Aust's fault, their just a licenced sales office, as are most of the semiconductor people here, they have to pay for everything that they receive from NSC. Unix to them is a great buzz word for the sales people to use and not much else. [What do you get if you rub two salesmen together,..TIRED ARMS!] Now back to the real problem. A binary licence is great and cheap but it's only of any use if the differences between the machines can be hidden in the drivers. The second you try to do something different, heaven forbid, you have no choice but to dive into the kernel. Even just doing something `nice' with a graphics interface really needs the support of kernel modifications. It's not NSC's fault, it's not AT&T's fault, it's not UNIX's fault. When the unix first grew up and started to get off the PDP's it was hailed as a truely PORTABLE system. Now we see computers advertized as "unix compatible", WHAT IS THAT??? I know! it's a machine that looks a lot like a Vax, architecturally anyway. Try porting it to a machine that stores every data structure and function in a seperate segment, where even trying to modify the base registers that address these segments causes a protection fault and see how far you get. I have some friends who ported a C compiler to such a machine, the only (simple) solution was to give every C program a great big segment all on it's own and let it do whatever it liked in there. Enough drivel, the point that I am trying to make is that unix is not a good thing for someone whose preferred pass time is designing strange hardware. It's just too big and complex. If the design effort is to be worthwhile you have to be able to do something other than run toy programs loaded from a cross-developement machine and that's too much work for one person, even for a small group of people it would take a very long time. Things that progress very slowly have a tendency to never finish, you just spend your time changing details. Maybe these sorts of projects don't have an absolute end, just getting to the point of being useable is a good place to call finished. I think the solution for me is a system written in a HIGH LEVEL language that doesn't allow nasty's like *( (struct mess_up *) 0x42 ) etc... A language which is far removed from any real machine (smalltalk?). Maybe this is the wrong place to air my views but it is where I started. It also seems to be the only vaguely hardware related group that is received in Australia. Yes I'm always this boring, jon. -- Jon Wells @ O'Dowd Research P/L. Ph: 03-562-0100 Fax: 03-562-0616 Rogue isn't the only place that leprechauns steal your gold!
phil@amdcad.AMD.COM (Phil Ngai) (03/04/88)
In article <205@jim.odr.oz> jon@jim.odr.oz (Jon Wells) writes: <In article <20411@amdcad.AMD.COM>, phil@amdcad.AMD.COM (Phil Ngai) writes: <> The vendor of the chip could let you use one of their systems which <> was licensed. And that system could be in your house or wherever you <> <This article is perhaps the best response I received. <It is the best response only because it's the least likely! <All but one or two letters have basically said....... <"what's your problem, you can get a binary licence etc. etc." < < [the following is just a pet gripe skip it if you like] < < You must understand that this is the wrong side of the world to < try such things. I doubt that you even need fingers to count the < number of people at NS Aust. that have USED a unix system. < Expecting them to have a machine AND the source to lend to anyone < let alone a no one like me is just not on. I can't speak for NS but if you (or anyone else) are willing to look at other (faster) processors, you should call our literature department and ask for an information package on the 29000. Then if you have any interesting ideas, perhaps we could do something. Send me mail! (I suppose this doesn't really belong in the NS group but we don't have an amd group and we do pay our share of phone bills for USENET.) +1 408 732 2400 (ask for literature) -- 300 Mb on a Sun-3/60 for $2,300, quantity 1! I speak for myself, not the company. Phil Ngai, {ucbvax,decwrl,allegra}!amdcad!phil or phil@amd.com