john@starfire.UUCP (John Lind) (12/01/88)
Disclaimer: The solution I am proposing is NOT the machine that "everyone" is looking for. Let's get the people who want something up and running on a REAL (non-iAPX) processor as quickly and cheaply as possible into one group, and the folks that want their '532 into the "other" group, because there is no way to make them both happy. If < $700 for a 2Mb 32016 SBC sounds good, read on. What I want to do is offer the possibility of an inexpensive, open-bus approach for the people that want a comfortable (definitely not turbo-charged) system that can be up and running quite quickly (if you solve the software licensing problem) with a TESTED, RUNNING design! Trust me, that isn't trivial -- we went several rounds with a PAL equation before we quit corrupting data every 200,000th DMA transfer. This is not a bad design, that's just the real world of high-speed digital engineering. No matter how good your design team is, and no matter how careful you are with the lay-out, you are going to find a number of GOTCHAS in any design this complex! If you think that you are going to get a 100% functional design on the first iteration, it is time to wake up and rejoin the world of the living. If you are one of the people that really want a '532, and are willing to put in the time, money, time, effort, and time to get it working, read no further -- I have nothing to offer you except a system which might be used as a software porting base. You are in the "other" group. Skip to "WHAT I OFFER" below to see if I can help your group any. My system, "starfire," is a 32016 SBC designed by a company that went out of business trying to find a way to distribute Unix/GENIX/something for it. They were going to do a 32032 board and other fun things, but the failed attempt to get a port and distribution set-up ate up all their cash. I managed to get a license from some VERY nice people at NSC who were sympathetic to the fact that I bought a board based on their product and got stuck high-and-dry. So, my license is technically for an ICM3216, even though I aint got one. This CANNOT be repeated, so don't even ask. As a result, none of the supplied drivers did me any good, but with a helpful boost from a group of grad students at CMU, I was able to get something running, and have bootstrapped my way into an adequately functional system. The basic drivers I started with were given to me no-strings-attached, and I have modified them substantially to make them work, so they are mine to do with as I please, including posting them to the net if I so desire. Starfire is currently running at 6MHz, but was designed to run at 10 (it was stuffed before the 10MHz parts were available, over 3 years ago). It can support two users doing pretty hefty work (compilation) pretty comfortably, and at least 6 people playing "hack" without much degradation in performance (I only have 6 ports). Those aren't Dhrystones or Whetstones, those are the observations of a happy owner. I'll get around to upgrading it to 10MHz (67% faster!) when I need the speed, or have extra $$$$ laying around :-). It is a "MultiBus I" system, which means that there are often good boxes and expansion boards available at Hamfests and surplus houses. I am running some Intel iSBC517 serial/parallel cards that I picked up for $7.50 each, and he threw in the card cage! I got my 650W power supply from a surplus store for $60. You can laugh at "Multibus I" all you want, but there is a LOT of hardware out there, and it is quite acceptable as an I/O only bus, which is how I use it. *IFF* we can find a way to get you binary licenses, I can supply you with drivers. I am a little foggy on what we can do legally to get the drivers on my system linked with the objects to build you a kernel, but I'll bet some reader will know the answer to that. DETAILS: This design incorporates the full chipset (CPU, MMU, FPU, TCU, ICU), 2Mb of byte-parity, dual-ported 256K x 1 DIP DRAMS, along with 4 serial ports, a disk interface (requires a controller), and a TOD battery backed-up clock (NSC MM58167A). OK, I just got off the phone with the guy that has the boards. His name is Andy Gruber (gruber@apollo.UUCP), and I will give you a mailing address below. Andy has about 100 bare boards that he is willing to sell for $35 each. For $50, you get the PALs, PROMs (won't boot Unix), owner's manual, and schematics. For an additional $50, you get a board stuffed will all the SSI, MSI, and sockets (no CPU, MMU, FPU, TCU, ICU, UART, nor RAM), although he only has about 10 of these. At these prices, he is doing little more than liquidating this stuff. He also hopes that the place that printed the boards still has the artwork... I paid $1000 for my board with everything but RAM and the processor set, where as you are looking at $135 + RAM + UARTS + CLOCK + CHIPSET!!! That is hard to beat. Actually, less than that if you are willing to stuff it yourself. Order from (if you know how you are going to get software): Andy Gruber 6 Valleywood Circle Winchester, MA 01890 BAD NEWS: The memory chips are rapidly becoming passe. There is no practical way to expand the memory beyond 2Mb on-board, and off-board incurs wait-states. Furthermore, the RAM sockets are piggy-back, which are a little tricky to fill. The MMU itself gives you one wait-state with this processor set (more if it needs to update its page tables), but the memory system alone runs at zero. The disk interface requires a specific ST506/412, SA400 controller designed by Western Digital and now sold by someone else, and does NOT support DMA! The serial ports cannot do full modem control due to board design limita- tions. ADDITIONAL INFO: Hey, this is a "Multibus I" design! Add what you need/want/wish for. Since one of my clients manufactures high-performance disk and tape controllers, I am now using a full DMA ESDI/QIC02/floppy controller instead of the WD hunk of junk, and a 9-track controller. With 170Mb of ESDI hard disk that I picked up surplus for $800 and a new-in-the- box Kennedy 9300 tape drive for $1800, I have a system with more punch than most PDP11s ever had! If anyone is interested in the add-on controllers, we can work out something for those drivers, too. Of course, I am also using the iSBC517 cards mentioned above for both serial and parallel communications, and those drivers are all mine. When I get my iSBC534 cards running, I'll even have some iSBC517s to sell/give away! SUMMING UP: I am running OBSOLETE software on OBSOLETE hardware, and loving it! Starfire is a full Usenet site -- we get all the news. I have a demand-paged, virtual-memory Unix system in my home. If that sounds good to you, let's go for it. In addition to the SBC, you will need the controller from RMT, who might be willing to give you a quantity discount. Then, you need an XT-style hard disk, and a terminal, which are pretty easy to find. Now you have all the hardware. Here's what we've got -- hardware and BSD-style drivers. That gets you nowhere unless you find a way to get a kernel to link the drivers with. The last hurdle is to get a legal way to get a configurable binary license and distribution into your hands and a way to link your kernel with my drivers. MORE DISCLAIMERS: Oh, yeah, there is no connection between me and Andy except that I am a satisfied customer. I stand to gain nothing from the sale of those boards. He's being trying to post an article himself, but can't seem to find a working set of news software. WHAT I OFFER: I will post the basic driver sources to the net if we get that far and ask for a token of appreciation from satisfied users ($25) (is that "legal" according to netiquette? If not, we'll set up starfire to be a BBS, and you can get them that way), but I suppose I would have to charge a nominal fee for the drivers shipped direct on media ( < $100), just so my hobby doesn't take bread off the table -- when you are a consultant, time is money. Writing drivers is what I do to feed myself! The drivers for the added controllers (which you don't have to have) contain vendor code, but I am pretty sure that I could work out a distribution agreement for them that would be quite reasonable, as long as you promised not to bug THEM with driver questions. I think that for $250 I can "buy" the driver that I started with and do anything I want with it after that, including selling my modified version for peanuts if I get enough interest. I'll happily check into quantity pricing on these add-on controllers if you want, but they are pretty spiffy, and you can get cheaper (less sophisticated) ones for less. I am willing to help get a kernel linked on my system, if there is a legal way to do that, and let you guys do what you want with it. If there is enough interest and people with checkbooks, I'll even buy a distribution license and sell you the software fully configured myself, but I would expect to make a little money from that (not bushel baskets, just enough that I am not losing money by not doing regular work). This offer holds for the people that are doing the '532 design, as well. Frankly, I wouldn't mind getting some supported software, myself -- I have a few bugs and an orphan system. It would be nice to get the software back into the main stream. Maybe ZAIAZ would take my drivers and link up a kernel for us -- that would be fairly painless. You don't NEED me to use this hardware, I am just telling you what I have and am willing to offer to the project. -- Make few rules -- the Law is love. John Lind, Starfire Consulting Services E-mail: john@starfire.UUCP USnail: PO Box 13001, Mpls MN 55414
john@starfire.UUCP (John Lind) (12/01/88)
Re-reading my posting, I realized that I might have given the wrong impression about the original disk interface. I ran with the original interface for two years, with two 70Mb hard disks, and processed a full news load. You can do just fine without the fancy controller I am now using. Hope that clears up any possible misconceptions. -- Make few rules -- the Law is love. John Lind, Starfire Consulting Services E-mail: john@starfire.UUCP USnail: PO Box 13001, Mpls MN 55414