jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (03/19/90)
I got an ICD 1989-1990 product catalog yesterday and I went looking through it
and it says that the MIO does not support imbedded SCSI drives. Does this
mean that a drive such as a Seagate ST157N will not work? Also, what's the
status of the T-816 and MIO board playing nice together?
// JCA
/*
**--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
** Flames : /dev/null | My opinions are exactly that,
** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | mine. Bill Gates couldn't buy
** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | it, but he could rent it. :)
** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca
**--------------------------------------------------------------------------*
*/clf3678@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.L. Freemesser) (03/20/90)
In article <1872@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >I got an ICD 1989-1990 product catalog yesterday and I went looking through it >and it says that the MIO does not support imbedded SCSI drives. Does this >mean that a drive such as a Seagate ST157N will not work? Also, what's the >status of the T-816 and MIO board playing nice together? > > // JCA I have seen the T-816. It's not that great. As for the MIO, it's probably the most unpredictable interface ever made for the 8-bits. It can work perfectly on one machine, and really flake out on another. It's non-support of embedded SCSI drive (such as the ST157N) is good proof of its poor design. The Black Box from Computer Software Services is an excellent product. Not only is it fast and well-designed, but has many extra features. A future add-on board will let you hook up generic drive mechs in PARALLEL! It has the parallel/serial/HD ports, with the Serial handling 9600 baud perfectly. It plugs into the parallel bus on the 800xl, 600xl, and 130xe. It comes with both connectors (unlike the MIO). The only thing it does NOT have is a Ramdisk. One other thing: it lets you put full boot floppies on your HD! If you want more info on it, call CSS at (716)586-5545. It's priced at around $199. Chris Freemesser, Rochester Institute of Technology ( THE ACORN BBS ||| BITNET: clf3678@ritvax ) (716)436-3078 ||| Usenet: clf3678@ultb.rit.isc.edu ( 2400 baud/42 megs / | \ GEnie: C.FREEMESSER ) full Atari support
ajy2208@ultb.isc.rit.edu (A.J. Yarusso) (03/20/90)
In article <2514@ultb.isc.rit.edu> clf3678@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.L. Freemesser) writes: >In article <1872@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >>I got an ICD 1989-1990 product catalog yesterday and I went looking through it >>and it says that the MIO does not support imbedded SCSI drives. Does this >>mean that a drive such as a Seagate ST157N will not work? Also, what's the >>status of the T-816 and MIO board playing nice together? >> >> // JCA >I have seen the T-816. It's not that great. > >As for the MIO, it's probably the most unpredictable interface ever made >for the 8-bits. It can work perfectly on one machine, and really flake >out on another. It's non-support of embedded SCSI drive (such as the >ST157N) is good proof of its poor design. Aww come on Chris, you're a bit biased because you know the designer of the Black Box, and it seems a lot of people here in Rochester have a slanted opinion of ICD since CSS lives here. I used to run a board on an MIO for over a year, and aside from one problem I had with a 256K version (a very very old one with a serial number of about 120), I think the MIO was a fantastic piece of engineering. An RS232 port, Centronics printer port, SCSI/SASI port, either 256K or 1Meg of RAM, and excellent built-in firmware! >The Black Box from Computer Software Services is an excellent product. >Not only is it fast and well-designed, but has many extra features. A >future add-on board will let you hook up generic drive mechs in >PARALLEL! It has the parallel/serial/HD ports, with the Serial handling >9600 baud perfectly. It plugs into the parallel bus on the 800xl, ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ I never had a problem with 9600 on the MIO. I also used 19,200 with it. >600xl, and 130xe. It comes with both connectors (unlike the MIO). ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ bit deal, that's just a marketting decision. If you don't have an XE, you save money because they don't have to give you a connector you don't need. >The only thing it does NOT have is a Ramdisk. One other thing: it lets >you put full boot floppies on your HD! They may be a bit late with this.. ICD came out with the MIO several years ago. :-) >Chris Freemesser, Rochester Institute of Technology ( THE ACORN BBS _____________________________________________________________________________ Albert Yarusso, Rochester ajy2208@ritvax.bitnet Institute of Tech. _________________________________________________________ Computer Science /___ / {rutgers, ames}!rochester!ultb!ajy2208 ______________________/ / ajy2208@ultb!isc!rit.edu
gdtltr@freezer.it.udel.edu (Gary Duzan) (03/20/90)
In article <1872@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: =>I got an ICD 1989-1990 product catalog yesterday and I went looking through it =>and it says that the MIO does not support imbedded SCSI drives. Does this =>mean that a drive such as a Seagate ST157N will not work? Also, what's the =>status of the T-816 and MIO board playing nice together? => I don't know anything about the imbedded SCSI problem (though it would be quite a problem), but I think I just about have my MIO getting along with my T-816. I get an occasional glitch, but I think I need to adjust the timing a bit. Gary Duzan Time Lord Third Regeneration -- gdtltr@freezer.it.udel.edu _o_ -------------------------- _o_ [|o o|] "My field is blood and guts programming." -- Me [|o o|] |_O_| "Don't listen to me; I never do." -- Doctor Who |_O_|
a254@mindlink.UUCP (Malcolm McDougall) (03/20/90)
> jca writes: > > Org. : People-Net [pnet01], El Cajon CA > Person: John C. Archambeau > > I got an ICD 1989-1990 product catalog yesterday and I went looking through > it > and it says that the MIO does not support imbedded SCSI drives. Does this > mean that a drive such as a Seagate ST157N will not work? Also, what's the > status of the T-816 and MIO board playing nice together? > I have 2 MIO's, and they will work with the SCSI imbedded drives. It is not suggeted that you use them, but there are format programs out there for them. I'm not sure why ICD doesn't want you to use the SCSI imbedded drives. Personally, I never really wanted to find out the hard way. I have a couple of old xebec 1410 SASI controllers on my MIO's, and they work fine. I now have the SCSI ROM chip for them, and all I have to do is change the bytes per sector from 512, to 256, and it should work fine in the old Xebec controllers.
mgh1@cbnewsl.ATT.COM (matthew.g.hetman) (03/22/90)
In article <1872@crash.cts.com>, jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: > I got an ICD 1989-1990 product catalog yesterday and I went looking through it > and it says that the MIO does not support imbedded SCSI drives. Does this > mean that a drive such as a Seagate ST157N will not work? Also, what's the > status of the T-816 and MIO board playing nice together? > // JCA The only reason imbedded drives are not fully supported is that to work with the MIO, they must be able to support 256 byte sectors. The only embedded drive that does this that I know of is the Seagate 225N. The Blackbox interface on the other hand deos support both 256 and 512 size sectors. Thus it can be used with more types of drives. _______ ______ Matthew G. Hetman ( / ) / / / / ____ AT&T Bell Labs / / / __ / / /---/ / ____ __ __ (201) 386-7259 / / (___/-/__/ /____ / (___()__/____///__/-/__/ /_ attbl!whscad1!mgh
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (03/23/90)
ajy2208@ultb.isc.rit.edu (A.J. Yarusso) writes: >In article <2514@ultb.isc.rit.edu> clf3678@ultb.isc.rit.edu (C.L. Freemesser) writes: >>In article <1872@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >>>I got an ICD 1989-1990 product catalog yesterday and I went looking through it >>>and it says that the MIO does not support imbedded SCSI drives. Does this >>>mean that a drive such as a Seagate ST157N will not work? Also, what's the >>>status of the T-816 and MIO board playing nice together? >>> >>> // JCA >>I have seen the T-816. It's not that great. >> >>As for the MIO, it's probably the most unpredictable interface ever made >>for the 8-bits. It can work perfectly on one machine, and really flake >>out on another. It's non-support of embedded SCSI drive (such as the >>ST157N) is good proof of its poor design. > >Aww come on Chris, you're a bit biased because you know the designer of >the Black Box, and it seems a lot of people here in Rochester have a slanted >opinion of ICD since CSS lives here. > >I used to run a board on an MIO for over a year, and aside from one >problem I had with a 256K version (a very very old one with a serial >number of about 120), I think the MIO was a fantastic piece of >engineering. An RS232 port, Centronics printer port, SCSI/SASI port, >either 256K or 1Meg of RAM, and excellent built-in firmware! If it's really a SCSI port, then I should be able to hang an ST157N on it, correct? It ain't really SCSI, probably some brain damaged subset. That isn't going to cut it. Why should I have to buy an ST412/506 hard drive with a SCSI -> ST412/506 host adaptor when it is supposed to be functionally equivalent to an embedded SCSI drive? It's also cheaper to buy the embedded SCSI drive, especially in my position. >>The Black Box from Computer Software Services is an excellent product. >>Not only is it fast and well-designed, but has many extra features. A >>future add-on board will let you hook up generic drive mechs in >>PARALLEL! It has the parallel/serial/HD ports, with the Serial handling >>9600 baud perfectly. It plugs into the parallel bus on the 800xl, > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >I never had a problem with 9600 on the MIO. I also used 19,200 with it. > >>600xl, and 130xe. It comes with both connectors (unlike the MIO). > ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >bit deal, that's just a marketting decision. If you don't have an XE, >you save money because they don't have to give you a connector you >don't need. > >>The only thing it does NOT have is a Ramdisk. One other thing: it lets >>you put full boot floppies on your HD! > >They may be a bit late with this.. ICD came out with the MIO several >years ago. :-) > >>Chris Freemesser, Rochester Institute of Technology ( THE ACORN BBS If the MIO doesn't support embedded SCSI drives such as the ST157N which I can get quite cheaply since I work for a Seagate authorized dealer, then it is a poor design. SCSI is SCSI, now admittedly there are several implementations of SCSI such as Mac, ANSI, CCS, and SCSI-2, but I don't see the logic as to why one would need a SCSI->ST412/506 host adaptor to plug a hard drive into an MIO board, is this a marketing decision by ICD so you have to buy such a board to drive your damned MIO board with a hard drive? The decision of whether I go with an MIO or a Black Box hinges on how much of a pain in the rear and how much I get hit in the wallet in rebuilding an 8-bit system. Also, how the MIO plays with the T-816 board is another factor. If the Black Box will work with the T-816 100% and support drives such as an ST157N or perhaps even an ST1096N then obviously that would be the better solution to storage. I think from a power user's perspective... Will this piece of hardware handicap me? Apparently the MIO board will. The biggest MFM ST412/506 drive I've seen is a 120 Mb. Now anybody who knows anything about the 65816 knows that it can beat the hell out of an 80286 if the proper motherboard is designed around it regardless of what AMD and Harris do to enhance the 80286. Now think of this, if you have a powerful enough machine, you damn well are going to need as much hard drive space as you can get. I have yet to see an actual limit to embedded SCSI drives. Hell, I've put 400 Mb CDC's in Mac's, now if you people want to see the 8-bit evolve into a 16-bit machine (which is what the T-816 is for) along with evolve into a 32-bit machine (there is a 65832 on the drawing board), then you had better question these stupid design flaws which I do all the time. There's a difference between dare to be different and dare to be stupid. I don't put up with stupidity in systems I configure and install whether they be Sun workstations, Macintoshes, or IBM compatables and I sure as hell won't tolerate it with the systems I have at home that I play with whether they be 386 machines, Atari ST's (if I ever decide to finally get one, I won't unless somebody makes an ethernet board for them), or Atari XL/XE. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | My opinions are exactly that, ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | mine. Bill Gates couldn't buy ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | it, but he could rent it. :) ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (03/23/90)
mgh1@cbnewsl.ATT.COM (matthew.g.hetman) writes: >In article <1872@crash.cts.com>, jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >> I got an ICD 1989-1990 product catalog yesterday and I went looking through it >> and it says that the MIO does not support imbedded SCSI drives. Does this >> mean that a drive such as a Seagate ST157N will not work? Also, what's the >> status of the T-816 and MIO board playing nice together? >> // JCA > >The only reason imbedded drives are not fully supported is that to work >with the MIO, they must be able to support 256 byte sectors. The only embedded >drive that does this that I know of is the Seagate 225N. The Blackbox >interface on the other hand deos support both 256 and 512 size sectors. Thus >it can be used with more types of drives. Then why didn't ICD make a piece of driver software to remap the 512 sectors (or blocks) to 256 sectors? There are other drives that do allow for 256 byte blocks. The CDC Wrens (at least the Wren VI I know for sure) do. They're changeable from 256 to 1024 size blocks (or sectors). Since I've formed a love/hate relationship with the Wren VI, I've become somewhat well versed in what it can do. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | My opinions are exactly that, ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | mine. Bill Gates couldn't buy ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | it, but he could rent it. :) ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */
gdtltr@freezer.it.udel.edu (Gary Duzan) (03/24/90)
In article <1915@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: => =>Will this piece of hardware handicap me? Apparently the MIO board will. =>The biggest MFM ST412/506 drive I've seen is a 120 Mb. Now anybody who knows =>anything about the 65816 knows that it can beat the hell out of an 80286 if =>the proper motherboard is designed around it regardless of what AMD and Harris =>do to enhance the 80286. Now think of this, if you have a powerful enough =>machine, you damn well are going to need as much hard drive space as you can =>get. I have yet to see an actual limit to embedded SCSI drives. Hell, I've =>put 400 Mb CDC's in Mac's, now if you people want to see the 8-bit evolve into =>a 16-bit machine (which is what the T-816 is for) along with evolve into a =>32-bit machine (there is a 65832 on the drawing board), then you had better =>question these stupid design flaws which I do all the time. => I want to know exactly what the problem is between the MIO & the imbedded SCSI drives before I get too heated, but it is quite a hassle. As far as the 65816 vs. 80286, I don't think I'd want to race a 1.75Mhz 65816 against a 12Mhz 80286. Once we manage to get the clock speed up, then we will have quite a system. I have a Turbo-816, and there is no noticable speedup with regular software, and I have yet to run any 65816-specific programs on the thing. If anyone wants to give me some hints on how to port GCC to a 65816 cross- compiler, let me know. I started writing a C compiler for the thing a while back, but I think I better wait until I get to my compiler design course before putting my brain back to that task. =>There's a difference between dare to be different and dare to be stupid. => Tell that to "Wierd Al" Yancovich (sp?). :-] =>I don't put up with stupidity in systems I configure and install whether they =>be Sun workstations, Macintoshes, or IBM compatables and I sure as hell won't =>tolerate it with the systems I have at home that I play with whether they be =>386 machines, Atari ST's (if I ever decide to finally get one, I won't unless =>somebody makes an ethernet board for them), or Atari XL/XE. => I hear that there are SCSI Ethernet boards in existence. I would love to have one for my MIO (if I can write a driver for it). :-] Gary Duzan Time Lord Third Regeneration Atari Enthusiast Extreme -- gdtltr@freezer.it.udel.edu _o_ -------------------------- _o_ [|o o|] "My field is blood and guts programming." -- Me [|o o|] |_O_| "Don't listen to me; I never do." -- Doctor Who |_O_|
Ordania-DM@cup.portal.com (Charles K Hughes) (03/24/90)
jca@pnet01.cts.com writes: >>>As for the MIO, it's probably the most unpredictable interface ever made >>>for the 8-bits. It can work perfectly on one machine, and really flake >>>out on another. It's non-support of embedded SCSI drive (such as the >>>ST157N) is good proof of its poor design. I've had this problem, but it is related to the lousy PBI on the Atari, not to the MIO itself. >> >>Aww come on Chris, you're a bit biased because you know the designer of >>the Black Box, and it seems a lot of people here in Rochester have a slanted >>opinion of ICD since CSS lives here. >> >If it's really a SCSI port, then I should be able to hang an ST157N on it, >correct? It ain't really SCSI, probably some brain damaged subset. That >isn't going to cut it. Why should I have to buy an ST412/506 hard drive with >a SCSI -> ST412/506 host adaptor when it is supposed to be functionally >equivalent to an embedded SCSI drive? It's also cheaper to buy the embedded >SCSI drive, especially in my position. You can hang an embedded SCSI drive on the MIO. However, one of the Seagate embedded drives is "braindead" - it won't allow 256 byte sectors. This is not the fault of the MIO. The MIO is not (I think) a full implementation of SCSI, but then few things are. :) > >>>The Black Box from Computer Software Services is an excellent product. >>>Not only is it fast and well-designed, but has many extra features. A >>>future add-on board will let you hook up generic drive mechs in >>>PARALLEL! It has the parallel/serial/HD ports, with the Serial handling >>>9600 baud perfectly. It plugs into the parallel bus on the 800xl, That future add-on board has been in the future for at least a year now. >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>I never had a problem with 9600 on the MIO. I also used 19,200 with it. >> >>>600xl, and 130xe. It comes with both connectors (unlike the MIO). >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >>bit deal, that's just a marketting decision. If you don't have an XE, >>you save money because they don't have to give you a connector you >>don't need. >> >>>The only thing it does NOT have is a Ramdisk. One other thing: it lets >>>you put full boot floppies on your HD! >> >>They may be a bit late with this.. ICD came out with the MIO several >>years ago. :-) >> >>>Chris Freemesser, Rochester Institute of Technology ( THE ACORN BBS > >If the MIO doesn't support embedded SCSI drives such as the ST157N which I can >get quite cheaply since I work for a Seagate authorized dealer, then it is a >poor design. SCSI is SCSI, now admittedly there are several implementations >of SCSI such as Mac, ANSI, CCS, and SCSI-2, but I don't see the logic as to >why one would need a SCSI->ST412/506 host adaptor to plug a hard drive into an >MIO board, is this a marketing decision by ICD so you have to buy such a board >to drive your damned MIO board with a hard drive? The decision of whether I >go with an MIO or a Black Box hinges on how much of a pain in the rear and how >much I get hit in the wallet in rebuilding an 8-bit system. Also, how the MIO >plays with the T-816 board is another factor. If the Black Box will work with >the T-816 100% and support drives such as an ST157N or perhaps even an ST1096N >then obviously that would be the better solution to storage. I think from a >power user's perspective... > >Will this piece of hardware handicap me? Apparently the MIO board will. >The biggest MFM ST412/506 drive I've seen is a 120 Mb. Now anybody who knows >anything about the 65816 knows that it can beat the hell out of an 80286 if >the proper motherboard is designed around it regardless of what AMD and Harris >do to enhance the 80286. Now think of this, if you have a powerful enough >machine, you damn well are going to need as much hard drive space as you can >get. I have yet to see an actual limit to embedded SCSI drives. Hell, I've >put 400 Mb CDC's in Mac's, now if you people want to see the 8-bit evolve into >a 16-bit machine (which is what the T-816 is for) along with evolve into a >32-bit machine (there is a 65832 on the drawing board), then you had better >question these stupid design flaws which I do all the time. > >There's a difference between dare to be different and dare to be stupid. > >I don't put up with stupidity in systems I configure and install whether they >be Sun workstations, Macintoshes, or IBM compatables and I sure as hell won't >tolerate it with the systems I have at home that I play with whether they be >386 machines, Atari ST's (if I ever decide to finally get one, I won't unless >somebody makes an ethernet board for them), or Atari XL/XE. > > // JCA Charles_K_Hughes @cup.portal.com
jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) (03/24/90)
gdtltr@freezer.it.udel.edu (Gary Duzan) writes: >In article <1915@crash.cts.com> jca@pnet01.cts.com (John C. Archambeau) writes: >=>Will this piece of hardware handicap me? Apparently the MIO board will. >=>The biggest MFM ST412/506 drive I've seen is a 120 Mb. Now anybody who knows >=>anything about the 65816 knows that it can beat the hell out of an 80286 if >=>the proper motherboard is designed around it regardless of what AMD and Harris >=>do to enhance the 80286. Now think of this, if you have a powerful enough >=>machine, you damn well are going to need as much hard drive space as you can >=>get. I have yet to see an actual limit to embedded SCSI drives. Hell, I've >=>put 400 Mb CDC's in Mac's, now if you people want to see the 8-bit evolve into >=>a 16-bit machine (which is what the T-816 is for) along with evolve into a >=>32-bit machine (there is a 65832 on the drawing board), then you had better >=>question these stupid design flaws which I do all the time. >=> > I want to know exactly what the problem is between the MIO & the imbedded >SCSI drives before I get too heated, but it is quite a hassle. As far as the >65816 vs. 80286, I don't think I'd want to race a 1.75Mhz 65816 against a >12Mhz 80286. Once we manage to get the clock speed up, then we will have quite >a system. I have a Turbo-816, and there is no noticable speedup with regular >software, and I have yet to run any 65816-specific programs on the thing. If >anyone wants to give me some hints on how to port GCC to a 65816 cross- >compiler, let me know. I started writing a C compiler for the thing a while >back, but I think I better wait until I get to my compiler design course before >putting my brain back to that task. The fastest 65816 is 8 MHz. One could design a nice machine around an 8 MHz chip which may probably be up to par with a 12 MHz 286. Remember, the WDC chips are more of a RISC architecture. >=>There's a difference between dare to be different and dare to be stupid. >=> > Tell that to "Wierd Al" Yancovich (sp?). :-] > >=>I don't put up with stupidity in systems I configure and install whether they >=>be Sun workstations, Macintoshes, or IBM compatables and I sure as hell won't >=>tolerate it with the systems I have at home that I play with whether they be >=>386 machines, Atari ST's (if I ever decide to finally get one, I won't unless >=>somebody makes an ethernet board for them), or Atari XL/XE. >=> > I hear that there are SCSI Ethernet boards in existence. I would love to >have one for my MIO (if I can write a driver for it). :-] There are SCSI ethernet devices out there, but those are for the Mac. Also, I doubt if you could implement TCP/IP in a 64K address space, but you could do it in a 65816 address space of 16 Mb. There are a lot of parallelisms between the 65816 and the 80286. // JCA /* **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* ** Flames : /dev/null | My opinions are exactly that, ** ARPANET : crash!pnet01!jca@nosc.mil | mine. Bill Gates couldn't buy ** INTERNET: jca@pnet01.cts.com | it, but he could rent it. :) ** UUCP : {nosc ucsd hplabs!hd-sdd}!crash!pnet01!jca **--------------------------------------------------------------------------* */