jrd@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.SYMBOLICS.COM.UUCP (05/13/88)
Does anyone know if the processor in the 130XE (listed as a 6502C) is the enhanced 6502, ie the one with instructions like INA and TXY? What about the 800XL? Thanks for any info.
rargyle@wsccs.UUCP (Bob Argyle) (05/21/88)
In article <19880512221405.8.JRD@MOA.SCRC.Symbolics.COM>, jrd@STONY-BROOK.SCRC.SYMBOLICS.COM (John R. Dunning) writes: > Does anyone know if the processor in the 130XE (listed as a 6502C) is > the enhanced 6502, ie the one with instructions like INA and TXY?
dh108@cs.city.ac.uk (KEATES M G) (03/05/91)
I'm no computer engineer, but is it possible to just do a straight replacement of the 6502 with a 65C02? Just a thought. ~r .signature -- +--------------+--------------------------------------------+-----------------+ | "Wrathchild" | e-mail : dh108@cs.city.ac.uk | ||| Atari- Power| | dh108 | Postal : 18 Droitwich House, Sumner Road, | ||| Without | | M.G.KEATES | Peckham, London SE15 5QG, ENGLAND |/ | \Our Support!|
gdtltr@brahms.udel.edu (root@research.bdi.com (Systems Research Supervisor)) (03/07/91)
In article <1991Mar5.110713.24023@cs.city.ac.uk> dh108@cs.city.ac.uk (KEATES M G) writes: => => I'm no computer engineer, but is it possible to just do =>a straight replacement of the 6502 with a 65C02? => => Just a thought. => =>~r .signature => Yes, I believe that this is usually possible. Note, however, that the Atari 8-bits use a modified 6502, the 6502C. I think it does something strange with interrupts to facilitate the use of gadgets like the Antic chip. Therefore, I don't believe you can just pop a 65C02 into an Atari and have it work properly. Gary Duzan Time Lord Third Regeneration -- gdtltr@brahms.udel.edu _o_ ---------------------- _o_ [|o o|] Two CPU's are better than one; N CPU's would be real nice. [|o o|] |_o_| Disclaimer: I AM Brain Dead Innovations, Inc. |_o_|
squishy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Shishin Yamada) (03/07/91)
Sorry, just thought I'd add my two cents worth... The striaght
drop-in replacement of the 6502 by a 65C02 would ALMOST SURELY not work.
It has a lot to do with the logic voltages of TTL compatable (6502
is an MOS device from Motorola and uses TTL compatable logic voltages), and
CMOS devices. The voltages for logic 0's and 1's differ between the two
chip technologies (CMOS has lower voltages). It is however interesting to
note that the 65C02 used in the 130xe series is FASTER than the standard
6502 running at 1.79MHz (incidentally, if you're wondering why 1.79MHz, it
is because it is an even factor of the TV color-burst frequency... 3.58MHz.
Makes video interfacing easier and it's cheaper to find a color-burst
crystal). Typically, CMOS is the slowest familly of Logic, so this must be
a variation, like HC (High Speed CMOS). While MOS technology is similar,
every MOS chip I've seen from Motorola is directly TTL compatable, and we
are taught to think of them in terms of a TTL type family of logic chips.
In this case, even if the 65C02 added an internal line-driver
(sometimes done to correct for the difference in logic voltages), often the
CMOS version has a different pin-out than the TTL version. Also, the 65C02
adds some new instructions to supplement the standard 6502 code to make
things a little faster.
To make a long story short, you are probably better off purchasing
a 130xe for cheap, than to fiddle with an old 800.
PS: I was a 800 user since 1980, then a 130xe user from 1985-1988. Now I am
a happy Mac II user. However, there's nothing like an Atari for easy
hardware interfacing. I wish I could show you the robot interface I once
built (at the cost of a fried 130xe!)
=====================================================
Shishin "Squish" Yamada |\/\/\/|
squishy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu /---------\ | |
Northwestern University | Yo | (o)(o) |
Electrical Engineering | Dudes! \ ( < )
Class of 1991 \__________\ |___/ |
\ |
"Life sucks, but Death swallows!" / \
/______\
=====================================================mcl9337@aim1.tamu.edu (MARK CHRISTOPHER LOWE) (03/07/91)
Hmmm... just a second, guys. Much as I hate to admit it, I owned an Apple //e a few years back (several). What do you think the enhancement kit for the //e involved? A couple new ROMs, and a 65C02 that was dropped in in place of the 6502. There are NO logic level problems whatsoever. The MAIN difference with the CMOSity of the 65C02 is that it used less power and ran cooler. Not like that was a big deal. There were the extra commands, too, as mentioned in a previous article. Just try it and see what happens. Remember that there are some programs that relied on a bug in jumps on page boundaries with the original 6502. These programs may crash on a 65C02. This little bug was often used as a means of copy protection. Mark C. "Bro!" Lowe - KB5III
gdtltr@brahms.udel.edu (root@research.bdi.com (Systems Research Supervisor)) (03/07/91)
In article <13111@helios.TAMU.EDU> mcl9337@aim1.tamu.edu (MARK CHRISTOPHER LOWE) writes: =>Hmmm... just a second, guys. Much as I hate to admit it, I owned an Apple //e =>a few years back (several). What do you think the enhancement kit for the //e =>involved? A couple new ROMs, and a 65C02 that was dropped in in place of the =>6502. There are NO logic level problems whatsoever. The MAIN difference with =>the CMOSity of the 65C02 is that it used less power and ran cooler. Not like =>that was a big deal. There were the extra commands, too, as mentioned in a =>previous article. => Yes, I believe it is relatively common to have a CMOS chip with TTL conversions at the pins. That way you get the power savings while maintaining compatability with the multitude of existing TTL logic chips. Gary Duzan Time Lord Third Regeneration -- gdtltr@brahms.udel.edu _o_ ---------------------- _o_ [|o o|] Two CPU's are better than one; N CPU's would be real nice. [|o o|] |_o_| Disclaimer: I AM Brain Dead Innovations, Inc. |_o_|
Tom_Klok@mindlink.UUCP (Tom Klok) (03/07/91)
> gdtltr@brahms.udel.edu writes: > > Yes, I believe that this is usually possible. Note, however, that > the Atari 8-bits use a modified 6502, the 6502C. I think it does > something strange with interrupts to facilitate the use of gadgets > like the Antic chip. Therefore, I don't believe you can just pop a > 65C02 into an Atari and have it work properly. Unless you have a 400 or 800 with one of the old, old CPU boards, that is. Atari originally used the normal 6502, but soon moved some of the TTL logic onto the CPU chip (since they were having them custom produced anyways, I believe). If you compare an older and newer CPU board side by side, the difference is obvious... at least two less TTL chips on the newer ones, over on the side where the colour-clock delay trimmer is. I swapped an older CPU card into my 400, and now I've got a 3MHz R65C02 in there. Running at only 1.79MHz, of course, but it stays nice and cool. There are some minor disadvantages, basically because of the bug fixes. The JMP ($xxFF) bug is fixed, illegal instructions now map to either new instructions or NOPs (which can throw off some programs expecting nasty tricks to work), and I believe a few instructions execute a clock cycle quicker, which can throw off super-critical timing loops. The added instructions are quite nice, but since using them makes your code nontransportable, the thrill wears off quickly. There's not a lot of point to the upgrade, really. Tom Klok a344@mindlink.UUCP
snyder@chopin.udel.edu (Mayleen G Snyder) (03/07/91)
In article <1991Mar5.110713.24023@cs.city.ac.uk> dh108@cs.city.ac.uk (KEATES M G) writes: > > I'm no computer engineer, but is it possible to just do >a straight replacement of the 6502 with a 65C02? > > Just a thought. > yes it is....but one thing you have to remeber the xl's and xe's don't have a 6502 they have a 6502C which is different and therefore you can only put a 65C02 in a 800 (which i did about two years ago....) and theoretically you can also put a 65C802 in...but i havn't been able to get it to work (it shows up with the blue screen but doesn't poll for the drive....i was gonna re assem the OS (friend has it ) and put in my own roms but never got around to it...(16 bit math routines....aahhhh the dreams of the young...) Sloopy X. Malibu snyder@brahms.udel.edu (chris luckey) snyder@mocha.acs.udel.edu
squishy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu (Shishin Yamada) (03/08/91)
Ooops, sorry, I guess I'm wrong. The 65C02 must have TTL line
drivers installed. I dunno if it would make the computer faster however,
since it is still clocked at the same clock speed, and the peripheral
interfaces are still the same type (I think the XE series has upgraded
PIAs). But, I would like to hear from those that modifed it. The key
advantage to CMOS technology is that it requires very little power, but its
drawbacks are speed and also driving devices. CMOS requires little power
because in CMOS technology power is consumed only when switching between
logical states (0-1 or 1-0 transitions). Very little power is used in the
steady-state logic outputs. This can possibly be a problem, especially if
there are pull-up or pull-down resistors somewhere, since it may not keep
the correct logic values (Should not be a problem if line-driver is
installed though).
If you decide to modify it, you MUST be careful to observe CMOS
static handling procedures, as a static shock could fry the chip's oxide
layers. Basically this means the best protection is to only handle the chip
with something like a static wrist strap (available cheap from Radio Shack)
to ground your body. I'd like to hear how it comes out!
=====================================================
Shishin "Squish" Yamada |\/\/\/|
squishy@casbah.acns.nwu.edu /---------\ | |
Northwestern University | Yo | (o)(o) |
Electrical Engineering | Dudes! \ ( < )
Class of 1991 \__________\ |___/ |
\ |
"Life sucks, but Death swallows!" / \
/______\
=====================================================Ordania-DM@cup.portal.com (Charles K Hughes) (03/08/91)
Ok, here is the definitive answer on CPU replacements for the Atari 8-bit series.... 400/800 - CPU can be switched with a 65C02, and 65802. Nothing else is needed. 1200xl, 1450xl, 600xl, 800xl, 130xe, XEGS - all require a special board to perform some multitasking stuff in order to replace the CPU. The only board (that I know of) that does this is the DataQue 65816 CPU upgrade. The particular design (NMOS/CMOS) used in the chip makes no difference (except perhaps in power consumption, and that is negligible). Charles_K_Hughes@cup.portal.com
davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu (David L. Yee) (03/14/91)
In article <39941@cup.portal.com> Ordania-DM@cup.portal.com (Charles K Hughes) writes: > 1200xl, 1450xl, 600xl, 800xl, 130xe, XEGS - all require a special board >to perform some multitasking stuff in order to replace the CPU. The >only board (that I know of) that does this is the DataQue 65816 CPU >upgrade. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ > > >Charles_K_Hughes@cup.portal.com Did this thing really come out? I remember reading articles about it in Computer Shopper, about how they were going to do a lot of neat things with it... and I awaited it but never heard much about it afterwards. Did it come out? Does any one have it? Does it work? I am really curious about something like this. If only the 8 bits had had this item 6 years ago... David L. Yee Email to:davidy@sumax.seattleu.eedu
gdtltr@brahms.udel.edu (root@research.bdi.com (Systems Research Supervisor)) (03/14/91)
In article <2450@sumax.seattleu.edu> davidy@sumax.seattleu.edu (David L. Yee) writes: =>In article <39941@cup.portal.com> Ordania-DM@cup.portal.com (Charles K Hughes) writes: =>> 1200xl, 1450xl, 600xl, 800xl, 130xe, XEGS - all require a special board =>>to perform some multitasking stuff in order to replace the CPU. The =>>only board (that I know of) that does this is the DataQue 65816 CPU =>>upgrade. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ =>> =>> =>>Charles_K_Hughes@cup.portal.com => =>Did this thing really come out? I remember reading articles about it in =>Computer Shopper, about how they were going to do a lot of neat things =>with it... and I awaited it but never heard much about it afterwards. =>Did it come out? Does any one have it? Does it work? I am really curious =>about something like this. If only the 8 bits had had this item 6 years ago... => Yes, it is out; I have one in my 130XE. As it is, I don't think it was worth it. The main reason is that the clock speed is still stuck at 1.79Mhz. I haven't kept up with things in the last year or so, but last I heard DataQue was looking into the possibility of introducing a new video board for the thing. The main problem with upping the clock speed is that it tends to freak out the ANTIC chip. With a new video board, it may be possible to disable ANTIC & switch to a higher speed. I have heard rumors of 65816 chips that will crank up to 20Mhz, but I believe the Turbo-816 65816 is rated at 5Mhz (Though I understand it may manage, say, 8Mhz.) But then the RAM will slow things down. Extended static RAM cards are available, and will support (I believe) up to 2Meg of SRAM. => => => David L. Yee => Email to:davidy@sumax.seattleu.eedu Gary Duzan Time Lord Third Regeneration -- gdtltr@brahms.udel.edu _o_ ---------------------- _o_ [|o o|] Two CPU's are better than one; N CPU's would be real nice. [|o o|] |_o_| Disclaimer: I AM Brain Dead Innovations, Inc. |_o_|
Ordania-DM@cup.portal.com (Charles K Hughes) (03/15/91)
David asks: >In article <39941@cup.portal.com> Ordania-DM@cup.portal.com (Charles K Hughes) >writes: >> 1200xl, 1450xl, 600xl, 800xl, 130xe, XEGS - all require a special board >>to perform some multitasking stuff in order to replace the CPU. The >>only board (that I know of) that does this is the DataQue 65816 CPU >>upgrade. ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ >> >> >>Charles_K_Hughes@cup.portal.com > >Did this thing really come out? I remember reading articles about it in >Computer Shopper, about how they were going to do a lot of neat things >with it... and I awaited it but never heard much about it afterwards. >Did it come out? Does any one have it? Does it work? I am really curious >about something like this. If only the 8 bits had had this item 6 years ago... > Yes it did. Pick up the current issue of START and look at the 8bit section in there. I believe it has something on the 65816 this month. If it doesn't, and you want the address for DataQue, I can dig that up for you. However, the upgrade costs $130 or so. (and that assumes you put it in yourself). It isn't cheap. > > > David L. Yee > Email to:davidy@sumax.seattleu.eedu Charles_K_Hughes@cup.portal.com
ken@hpcupt3.cup.hp.com (Kenneth M. Sumrall) (03/17/91)
> Ooops, sorry, I guess I'm wrong. The 65C02 must have TTL line >drivers installed. I dunno if it would make the computer faster however, >since it is still clocked at the same clock speed, and the peripheral >interfaces are still the same type (I think the XE series has upgraded >PIAs). But, I would like to hear from those that modifed it. The key > The 65C02 performed some instructions faster than the 6502. However, the the flags are set correctly on decimal math mode on the 65C02 at the cost of one addtional cycle. The speedup would not really be noticable IMHO. Also, the 6502 was used on the 400 and 800, but the XL and XE machines used the a chip called 6502C or Sally. In this chip, a few pins were changed 6502C 6502 Pin function pin function 36 READ/WRITE 36 N.C. 35 /HALT 35 N.C. 34 N.C. 34 READ/WRITE the HALT pin on the 6502C stopped the CPU clock and tri-stated the address bus inside the CPU, instead of it being done externally like the 400 and 800 did. Also, because of the way the CPU clock is halted, (the clock is stretched during phase 0 of the clock at logic 0 level) the 65802 isn't a drop in replacement fo the 6502 even on the 400 and 800 because the 65802 doesn't allow the CPU clock to be stretched low for more than 10 uS. ANTIC stretches the clock for more than that when doing video memory accesses. BTW, I don't know how the DataQue 65816 board works, so don't ask. >advantage to CMOS technology is that it requires very little power, but its >drawbacks are speed and also driving devices. CMOS requires little power ^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^^ Not anymore. This was true back when the RCA 4000 series CMOS chips were made, but all the latest CPU's are done in CMOS at high clock speeds. The 68030 clocks at 50Mhz now, the 68040 clocks at 25Mhz with 33 and 50 planned (I think), and the 80486 runs at 33 Mhz, with higher speeds planned (I think). Intel did talk about a one of a kind 100 Mhz 80486 that they got running in the lab. And here at HP, we have RISC processors running at 50Mhz. As for fan out, depending on the process, a CMOS output can drive several TTL loads, and LOTS of CMOS loads. Just my $0.02. Ken Sumrall ken%hpda@hplabs.hp.com ...!hplabs!hpda!ken