steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) (03/02/91)
Hello All I have designed a Mac II from A iifx memory map. Using hardware diffrent to apples, I have placed together a mac iifx compatible hardware combination. I have ensured that apples roms will NOT plug in and make it apple fx compatible. I have substituted variousn other better components to simulate apple hardware. mainlt serial ports (6551 driven for rs442) PAL's, but diffrent, however compling to sony's audio processor, apples ADB comm's The rest of the system works fine thru a logic analizer, using apples roms. But i do not want to use those. The question is is it worthing paying a 68040 programmer to write a os system to patch apples operating roms to mine. its in the area of $2000 in Australia. What i would like to know is if I can be sued even though the software is diffrent and the hardware diffrent, but still does EXACTLY the same job. I know apple will do anuthing to eliminate any efforts of any copies being attempted of their system, and I am keen to put may mac frankinstein in hackers hands as, It.. simply works. I Have spent may hours drawing schmatics of the system and using protel to produce a board. Do any of you 68000 programmers recon its visable. ? steveh
py@meadow.uucp (Peter Yeung) (03/05/91)
In article <steveh.667927814@tasman> steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) writes: > > >The question is is it worthing paying a 68040 programmer to write a os >system to patch apples operating roms to mine. its in the area of >$2000 in Australia. What i would like to know is if I can be sued >even though the software is diffrent and the hardware diffrent, but >still does EXACTLY the same job. I know apple will do >anuthing to eliminate any efforts of any copies being attempted >of their system, and I am keen to put may mac frankinstein in hackers >hands as, It.. simply works. I Have spent may hours drawing schmatics >of the system and using protel to produce a board. > The answer is: you cannot afford the legal cost of fighting with Apple (except you have a pocket as deep as Microsoft). I think Apple will be bring you to court as soon as you plan to market your efforts. It does not matter whether you will win in court or not: the legal will kill you before you can see a cent coming in. That is the sad state of the current micro-computer market, be it hardware or software. B-( > > Do any of you 68000 programmers recon its visable. ? > > > > steveh -- Peter Yeung Amdahl Canada Ltd., Software Development Center 2000 Argentia Road, Plaza 2, Suite 300 Mississauga, Ont. L5N 1V8 Phone: (416) 542-6300 Fax: (416) 858-2233
jeff@uf.msc.umn.edu (Jeff Turner) (03/05/91)
Steven Howell writes: > I have designed a Mac II from A iifx memory map. Boy would it be nice if Apple has some competition! >What I would like to know is if I can be sued I think it is safe to say that anyone can sue anyone for anything. The real question is can Apple win such a suit? I am light-years away from being a legal expert, but I would think that with all the fuss Apple has been causing lately (with respect to user interfaces and the like), you might be in trouble if your ROMs emulate the MAC's functions. Even though it is completely original code, if in the end it provides the same look-and-feel as Apple's interface, you are on shaky ground. I would recommend that you talk to a real attorney and take their advice. --- Jeff Turner EMAIL: jeff@msc.edu Minnesota Supercomputer Center, Inc. VOICE: (612) 626-0544 Minneapolis, Minnesota 55415 FAX: (612) 624-6550
epa@iti.org (Eric P. Armstrong) (03/05/91)
jeff@uf.msc.umn.edu (Jeff Turner) writes: >Steven Howell writes: >> I have designed a Mac II from A iifx memory map. >I am light-years away from being a legal expert, but I would think that with >all the fuss Apple has been causing lately (with respect to user interfaces >and the like), you might be in trouble if your ROMs emulate the MAC's >functions. Even though it is completely original code, if in the end it >provides the same look-and-feel as Apple's interface, you are on shaky ground. It might come under the same considerations as the IBMPC BIOS roms and UN*X kernal porting. The hardware should not be a problem? But the roms would have to be clean room ported, using at least two programmers and lots and lots of documentation. >I would recommend that you talk to a real attorney and take their advice. Still the best advice. ---- Eric P. Armstrong Kansas State University epa@phobos.cis.ksu.edu
gl8f@astsun.astro.Virginia.EDU (Greg Lindahl) (03/05/91)
In article <1991Mar4.181052.826@meadow.uucp> py@meadow.UUCP (Peter Yeung) writes: >In article <steveh.667927814@tasman> steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) writes: >> >>The question is is it worthing paying a 68040 programmer to write a os >>system to patch apples operating roms to mine. >The answer is: you cannot afford the legal cost of fighting with Apple (except >you have a pocket as deep as Microsoft). I think Apple will be bring you to >court as soon as you plan to market your efforts. Such efforts (patching real mac ROMSs to run on different hardware) are already on the market for the Amiga and Atari ST. None of those vendors were sued, but Apple is attempting to prevent any dealer from buying roms to sell to non-Mac users. So the answer is, others have done it and weren't taken anywhere, but unless they want to sue Apple for anti-trust (which seems to have worked against IBM and DG in the past) then they're probably toast.
lars@spectrum.CMC.COM (Lars Poulsen) (03/09/91)
In article <steveh.667927814@tasman> steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) writes: > I have designed a Mac II from A iifx memory map. >Using hardware diffrent to apples, I have placed together a mac iifx >compatible hardware combination. >I have ensured that apples roms will NOT plug in and >make it apple fx compatible. > >The question is is it worthing paying a 68040 programmer to write a os >system to patch apples operating roms to mine. its in the area of >$2000 in Australia. What i would like to know is if I can be sued >even though the software is diffrent and the hardware diffrent, but >still does EXACTLY the same job. (1) Can you get sued ? You bet. American companies will sue anyone if they think they can derive even a temporary benefit. If they could force you to spend a half million dollars defending yourself from a frivolous lawsuit, would it be to their benefit ? Yes. (2) Would a suit have merit, or would it be thrown out of court ? The operative phrase here is "derivative work". Did you derive your product from Apple's copyrighted material ? It sounds to me like the answer is YES. You intend to take Apple's ROM and patch it around the edges. (3) Is there a way to legally make a clone ? In order for a clone to not be a derivative work, it is necessary that the people that implement it should not have seen the copyrighted code. The companies that opened the world to IBM-PC clones defined a "clean room" procedure to ensure this. Two software teams worked in parallel. One team - the dirty team - developed a functional specification for the code. In other words, they reverse engineered a description of what the code must do to be an acceptable plug-in replacement. The other team - the clean team, which consisted entirely of programmers with no knowledge of the copyrighted code - implemented code according to the specifications. The dirty team then tested the resulting code, and whenever it was found to not work as required, defined the problem as a specification error, and amended the specification to cover the problem area. The clean team then amended the product. All communication between the two teams was formal and written to ensure that no "forbidden" knowledge of the copyrighted software was imparted to the clean team. I believe that DEC used a similar approach to develop OSF/1 software untainted by ATT Unix copyrights. This meant hiring systems programmers that had never seen Unix source code !! Clean room development is EXPENSIVE. Note, that if you develop in a clean room, there is no reason to insert gratuitous incompatibilities: They become IRRELEVANT. -- / Lars Poulsen, SMTS Software Engineer CMC Rockwell lars@CMC.COM
breidenb@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Oliver Breidenbach) (03/10/91)
hi, is that the same way IBM developed AIX (two teams, one never seen a piece of UNIX)? That would explain why it's such a nasty messy thing. A UNIX written by people straight from university without any experience in writing software? They should be sued on violation of human rights to the benefit of all mankind. (Just my opinion). Oliver.
n67786@cc.tut.fi (Tero Nieminen) (03/12/91)
In article <1991Mar10.091521.18978@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE> breidenb@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE (Oliver Breidenbach) writes:
Sender: news@Informatik.TU-Muenchen.DE
Distribution: comp
Organization: Technische Universitaet Muenchen, Germany
Lines: 9
hi,
is that the same way IBM developed AIX (two teams, one never seen a piece
of UNIX)? That would explain why it's such a nasty messy thing.
A UNIX written by people straight from university without any experience
in writing software? They should be sued on violation of human rights to
the benefit of all mankind. (Just my opinion).
Oliver.
Harly that, but you see, you can buy the unix source licence for a
"reasonable" price. And practically all unixes running today have some
copyrigtrd code in them (MACH and GNU are still to be released).
Just my two cents worth..
--
Tero Nieminen Tampere University of Technology
n67786@cc.tut.fi Tampere, Finland, Europesteveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) (03/13/91)
Well, that sums that up. $1000 worth of time and money down the drain. Ya know, apple used to be the best computer company in the world. they produced excellent made in USA products and issued excellent doccumentation. The apple ii was a legend. Then one day it all stopped, and they became a total bastard company. if they wanted to they could ransack my home score my little fx clone and clean me up on that alone. I don't know what steve and steve did, but something went wrong. I am an apple tech, i get to see the ins and out of every apple product. They are simple, to darn simple. And the prices they charge for service, wow man they produce millionairs from third party service alone. I am really getting jack of apple and its "im the greatest" policies. they are really annoying. You know, a bloke had acid spilt on his mac, just a horrible little mac plus, and to obtain a new bezel for it was was hell. they demanded all these spec. the bezel had to be shipped off to apple reasearch like department to be verified and certified valid for their replacement program and crap, and to belive that the idiot payed over $4000 for the machine when he first bought it, and he gets a pile of bits and pieces while apple think about replacing has bezel. man, that sux. anyway, when i design my machine that is original, (hell knows how since virtually everything from screw color, to tube size is copyrighted) I'll make a company that will buy apple out, and turn there head swell marvell into an electronic kit factory. so, heaps of grumbles, lots of fun and action. thanks for the replies folks. steve h 1
py@meadow.uucp (Peter Yeung) (03/14/91)
In article <steveh.668828873@tasman> steveh@tasman.cc.utas.edu.au (Steven Howell) writes: > > > Well, that sums that up. $1000 worth of time and money down the drain. >Ya know, apple used to be the best computer company in the world. they produced >excellent made in USA products and issued excellent doccumentation. >The apple ii was a legend. Then one day it all stopped, and they became a total >bastard company. if they wanted to they could ransack my home score my little >fx clone and clean me up on that alone. > Recently, I read about someone just announced a Mac chip set. They used the "clean room" approach to design/implement the hardware and the software. I think they are looking for takers to build something useful. They even had a copyright lawyer overlooking the whole process. The aricle also mentioned the possibility of law suits from Apple. As far as I can remember, Apple had not comment on it yet. The article is really recent, my mind just failed me and I have no recollection of where I read it. Can anyone elaborate on the chip set? -- Peter Yeung Amdahl Canada Ltd., Software Development Center 2000 Argentia Road, Plaza 2, Suite 300 Mississauga, Ont. L5N 1V8 Phone: (416) 542-6300 Fax: (416) 858-2233
spp@zabriskie.berkeley.edu (Steve Pope) (03/22/91)
> Well, that sums that up. $1000 worth of time and money down the drain.
Not necessarily. Maybe when the Apple lawyers show up
they'll pay you off big $$ to cease and desist from
clone-building. Cheaper than dragging you through the
courts.
steve