mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (01/19/87)
Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white
video over a distance of 2 miles? Some friends and myself are trying to
put real-time vision on a radio-controlled plane. Any magazine referances
or books would be helpful. Please respond via E-mail and I'll post a summary
later on if anyone's interested.
Thanx in advance.
--
Mark Tilden: _-_-_-__--__--_ /(glitch!) M.F.C.F Hardware Design Lab.
-_-___ | \ /\/ Un. of Waterloo. Canada, N2L-3G1
|__-_-_-| \/ work: (519)-885-1211 ext.2457,
"MY OPINIONS, YOU HEAR!? MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! MINE! AH HAHAHAHAHAHAHAHAHA!!"brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) (01/20/87)
In article <4484@watmath.UUCP> mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: >Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white >video over a distance of 2 miles? Some friends and myself are trying to >put real-time vision on a radio-controlled plane. Any magazine referances >or books would be helpful. Please respond via E-mail and I'll post a summary >later on if anyone's interested. Before anybody says anything else: Any tv transmitter that can transmit for at least 2 miles will require FCC approval. In other words, forget it. Not only that, you probably couldn't get it to fit in the plane. There were little transmitters made to work in a person's house and they were pulled from the market because the output power was too large, and they would only work the distance the size of a house. -- ihnp4------\ |------------------------| harvard-\ \ | terminus: | Mr. Video seismo!uwvax!nicmad!brown | The clearing house for | rutgers-/ / | rec.arts.drwho | decvax------/ |------------------------| terminus-----/
grr@cbmvax.cbm.UUCP (George Robbins) (01/21/87)
In article <1438@nicmad.UUCP> brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: >In article <4484@watmath.UUCP> mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: >>Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white >>video over a distance of 2 miles? > >Before anybody says anything else: Any tv transmitter that can transmit for >at least 2 miles will require FCC approval. In other words, forget it. Too true. To do what you want, you will have to local a friendly amateur radio type who is into ATV. This might be fun, forced marriage or not. Simple solutions involving a video-modulator/amplifier/antenna get illegal very quickly... -- George Robbins - now working for, uucp: {ihnp4|seismo|rutgers}!cbmvax!grr but no way officially representing arpa: cbmvax!grr@seismo.css.GOV Commodore, Engineering Department fone: 215-431-9255 (only by moonlite)
capshaw@milano.UUCP (01/21/87)
Interesting that this question should come up.. A local ham is preparing just such a plane. I believe he is using fairly ordinary ATV (Amateur TV) technology. Minimizing payload weight and ensuring the safety of the payload (!) seem to be his greatest concerns. If he flies close enough to an ATV repeater, a bunch of folks can enjoy the view. -- Dave Capshaw
rsanders@watdcsu.UUCP (Roger K. Sanderson P.Eng.) (01/21/87)
In article <1438@nicmad.UUCP> brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: >In article <4484@watmath.UUCP> mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: >>Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white >>video over a distance of 2 miles? Some friends and myself are trying to > >Before anybody says anything else: Any tv transmitter that can transmit for >at least 2 miles will require FCC approval. In other words, forget it. Not >only that, you probably couldn't get it to fit in the plane. > Ah yes, but the origional poster was from Canada, and we only have to deal with the DOC :-).
brian@sdcsvax.UCSD.EDU (Brian Kantor) (01/21/87)
In article <1438@nicmad.UUCP> brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: >In article <4484@watmath.UUCP> mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: >>Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white >>video over a distance of 2 miles? If you have a Ham license, you could build a little transmitter that runs a watt or so, and put it in your plane. It would be on the the 420-450 MHz or higher bands. You'd probably have to follow the plane with a directional gain antenna to get an acceptable image, but it can be done. At the local electronics swap meet, there are a couple of people who wander around with CCD colour cameras with a little (probably 1200MHz) antenna on top, and transmit the image back to the monitor in their cars on the other side of the parking lot. Range is about 1/4 mile through people and cars and bushes, and without directional antennas. Brian Kantor WB6CYT UC San Diego
ken@argus.UUCP (Kenneth Ng) (01/22/87)
In article <1438@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: > In article <4484@watmath.UUCP> mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: > >Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white > >video over a distance of 2 miles? Some friends and myself are trying to > >put real-time vision on a radio-controlled plane. Any magazine referances > >or books would be helpful. Please respond via E-mail and I'll post a summary > >later on if anyone's interested. > > Before anybody says anything else: Any tv transmitter that can transmit for > at least 2 miles will require FCC approval. In other words, forget it. Not > only that, you probably couldn't get it to fit in the plane. Legally your probably right, unless the guy gets an appropriate amueter radio license. Technically, your probably wrong. Example: Israel in the Lebanon campaign frequently sent radio drones up which were really souped up mdel airplanes. They not only carried real time TV, but equipment to simulate a larger plane, in an effort to activate enemy antiaircraft batteries. -- Kenneth Ng: Post office: NJIT - CCCC, Newark New Jersey 07102 uucp !ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!argus!ken *** WARNING: NOT ken@bellcore.uucp *** bitnet(prefered) ken@orion.bitnet Gillian: "Are you sure you won't change your mind?" Spock: "Is there something wrong with the one I have?"
tob@inuxm.UUCP (01/23/87)
> In article <1438@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: > > >Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white > > >video over a distance of 2 miles? Some friends and myself are trying to > > > > Before anybody says anything else: Any tv transmitter that can transmit for > > at least 2 miles will require FCC approval. In other words, forget it. Not > > only that, you probably couldn't get it to fit in the plane. > Legally your probably right, unless the guy gets an appropriate amueter radio > license. Technically, your probably wrong. Example: Israel in the Lebanon > campaign frequently sent radio drones up which were really souped up mdel > airplanes. They not only carried real time TV, but equipment to simulate > a larger plane, in an effort to activate enemy antiaircraft batteries. The latest issue of Discover mag had a good article on these RPV's. Ted Burger
cgs@umd5.UUCP (01/27/87)
Keywords: In article <1438@nicmad.UUCP> brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: >In article <4484@watmath.UUCP> mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: >>Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white >>video over a distance of 2 miles? Some friends and myself are trying to >>put real-time vision on a radio-controlled plane. Any magazine referances >>or books would be helpful. Please respond via E-mail and I'll post a summary >>later on if anyone's interested. > >Before anybody says anything else: Any tv transmitter that can transmit for >at least 2 miles will require FCC approval. In other words, forget it. Not >only that, you probably couldn't get it to fit in the plane. > >Mr. Video Not true! The FCC has allocated bands in which one does not need a license of any kind to use the frequencies with any kind of modulation desired. The only restriction is the field strength measured at a specified distance from the transmitting antenna. One may use any amount of RF power as long as the field strength specification is met (read: you can use 1kW if your antenna is very lossy). Since the poster is already using one such band to control the airplane, the poster most certainly can use another frequency in the same band for the TV signal. Also, the 2 mile range is trivial given that the plane controller already has line-of-sight communication with the plane. Please, Mr. Video, go look at the FCC Regulations, especially Part 15. -- --==---==---==-- .. The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! .. ARPA: cgs@umd5.UMD.EDU BITNET: cgs%umd5@umd2 UUCP: ..!seismo!umd5.umd.edu!cgs
dsi@unccvax.UUCP (02/04/87)
In article <1426@umd5>, cgs@umd5 (Chris Sylvain) writes: > In article <1438@nicmad.UUCP> brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: > >In article <4484@watmath.UUCP> mwtilden@watmath.UUCP (M.W. Tilden, Hardware) writes: > >>Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white > >>put real-time vision on a radio-controlled plane. Any magazine referances > >>or books would be helpful. Please respond via E-mail and I'll post a summary > >Before anybody says anything else: Any tv transmitter that can transmit for > >at least 2 miles will require FCC approval. In other words, forget it. Not > >only that, you probably couldn't get it to fit in the plane. > > > >Mr. Video > > Not true! The FCC has allocated bands in which one does not need a license > of any kind to use the frequencies with any kind of modulation desired. > The only restriction is the field strength measured at a specified distance > from the transmitting antenna. One may use any amount of RF power as long No, no, no, no. The operation being contemplated by the original poster does NOT fall under 47 CFR 15 anyway (part 15 of the FCC Rules and Regs). Nevertheless, these would be the power maximums for "low power communications devices": 47CFR15.112(a) - 160 to 190 kHz - one watt input power 47CFR15.113(a) - 510 to 1600 kHz - 0.1 watt input power 47CFR15.114(a) - cordless telephone - 50 mV/m at 3 meters at carrier F 47CFR15.115 - device illegal to operate from 26.97 to 27.27 mHz (operations cease Sept 18, 1983) as 47CFR15.116 - 26.99 to 27.26 - voice and data prohibited (A3,F3,A1) 10 mV/m at 3 meters at carrier F 47CFR15.117 - 49.82 to 49.90 - 10 mV/m at 3 meters at carrier F Emissions not wider than 20 kHz 47CFR15.119 - Home built device (5 or less) Not marketed 49.82 to 49.90 (b) "the power input to the device at the batter or power line terminals shall not exceed 100 milliwatts under any condition of modulation 47CFR15.122 - (above 70 mHz) - transmission duration not greater than one second and silent period of at least 30 times the transmitting duration. 500 uV/m at 3 m Nevertheless, I would challenge anyone to make a radiofrequency power amplifier with 1 kw RF output and sufficiently shield it to limit radiation to 50 mV/m at 3 meters. Generally speaking, the FCC frowns big-time on homebuilt devices which have a DC input power to the final radiofrequency amplifier of 0.1 watts or more. While this has not been set in stone as a rule, it is certainly something which the local EIC (Engineer in Charge) could insist on if pushed. Furthermore, there is this business of self-certification which have been prosecuted. None of the part 15 frequencies would be suitable for television, anyway. David Anthony DataSpan, Inc.
res@sdiris1.UUCP (02/05/87)
I don't think a technical discussion is needed here, but there is a VERY large difference in the power levels needed for a given range for Voice/rc control and wide-band video... the ratio is that of the bandwidth of the signals, roughly... which is about a thousand to one... In Amateur TV service, a 1 watt transmitter, which must be licensed, is good for about a half-mile, tops, without high-gain directional antennas at both ends.. in air to ground service, it would be good for 2 miles probably... but you can only have about 100 milliwatts, 1/10th the power, in an unlicensed unit. Skip - N6IMN cn -- Skip Sanders : sdcsvax!jack!man!sdiris1!res
brown@nicmad.UUCP (02/06/87)
In article <1426@umd5> cgs@umd5.umd.edu (Chris Sylvain) writes: [... stuff about transmitting NTSC TV from a model plane ...] >Please, Mr. Video, go look at the FCC Regulations, especially Part 15. Ok, so I didn't know that a portion of the HAM band was opened up. But, I got the impression from the poster that he wanted a cheap way of doing it, ie, NTSC transmitter to a portable tv set. There aren't many portable tvs around that pick up the ham frequency area. The cheap way to a portable tv, over two miles, would require a transmitter out of FCC minimum requirements for non-license. Also, as we have seen in a reply from the poster (and others), that the problem area is in Canada, which the FCC can't do anything about. I have no answer for there, as I don't know the Canadian rules, but my original idea about transmitting to a portable tv will probably be out of spec in Canada as well. -- harvard-\ ihnp4-\ Mr. Video seismo!uwvax.......!nicmad!brown (How I hate 4 line .sigs!) rutgers-/ decvax-/
brown@nicmad.UUCP (02/06/87)
In article <614@unccvax.UUCP> dsi@unccvax.UUCP (Dataspan Inc) writes: [... gives very good data on FCC rules ...] >David Anthony >DataSpan, Inc. Does this mean that my original posting about one not being able to build anything is correct, and that another person's posting about a ham area for doing such stuff is wrong? That's a load off my mind :-) -- harvard-\ ihnp4-\ Mr. Video seismo!uwvax.......!nicmad!brown (How I hate 4 line .sigs!) rutgers-/ decvax-/
pozar@hoptoad.UUCP (02/06/87)
By the way, Video is usually encoded in AM, not FM. The audio is encoded
in FM.
--
Tim Pozar
UUCP pozar@hoptoad.UUCP
Fido 125/406
USNail KLOK-FM
77 Maiden Lane
San Francisco CA 94108
terrorist cryptography DES drugs cipher secret decode NSA CIA NRO IRS
coke crack pot LSD russian missile atom nuclear assassinate libyan RSAcgs@umd5.UUCP (02/07/87)
>>>>Anybody know of any circuits or modules that can transmit NTSC black/white >>>>put real-time vision on a radio-controlled plane. [orig. poster] >>> >>>Before anybody says anything else: Any tv transmitter that can transmit for >>>at least 2 miles will require FCC approval. ["Mr. Video"] >> >> ..The FCC has allocated bands in which one does not need a license.. >> The only restriction is the field strength measured at a specified distance >> from the transmitting antenna. One may use any amount of RF power as long > >No, no, no, no. The operation being contemplated by the original poster >does NOT fall under 47 CFR 15 anyway (part 15 of the FCC Rules and Regs). I note some discrepancies between the specifications you posted, and the FCC regulations themselves. In order to not mislead nor misinform anyone, I will comment on each of the paragraphs in turn where I detect a discrepancy. > 47CFR15.112(a) - 160 to 190 kHz - one watt input power This is actually the *alternative* provision for a device that does not meet the requirements of "47CFR"15.111. This states quite clearly: "..emission of RF energy on the fundamental or any harmonic or other spurious frequency does not exceed the field strength.." 10 kHz to 490 kHz 2400 divided by f(kHz) measured at 300 meters 510 kHz to 1600 kHz 24,000 divided by f(kHz) measured at 30 meters > 47CFR15.113(a) - 510 to 1600 kHz - 0.1 watt input power Again, this is the alternative provision for 15.111. > 47CFR15.114(a) - cordless telephone - 50 mV/m at 3 meters at carrier F > 47CFR15.115 - device illegal to operate from 26.97 to 27.27 mHz > (operations cease Sept 18, 1983) as > 47CFR15.116 - 26.99 to 27.26 - voice and data prohibited (A3,F3,A1) > 10 mV/m at 3 meters at carrier F 15.116 only applies to a non-voice device, so the modulation modes make sense. > 47CFR15.117 - 49.82 to 49.90 - 10 mV/m at 3 meters at carrier F > Emissions not wider than 20 kHz This applies only to a marketed device, or is home built in a quantity greater than 5. > 47CFR15.119 - Home built device (5 or less) > Not marketed > 49.82 to 49.90 > (b) "the power input to the device at the batter > or power line terminals shall not exceed 100 > milliwatts under any condition of modulation > 47CFR15.122 - (above 70 mHz) - transmission duration not greater > than one second and silent period of at least > 30 times the transmitting duration. 500 uV/m at 3 m The field strength given is incorrect. The correct field *strengths* are: (field strengths are measured at *30* meters) 70 to 130 MHz 50 microV/m 130 to 174 MHz 50 to 150 microV/m (linear interpolation) 174 to 260 MHz 150 microV/m 260 to 470 MHz 150 to 500 microV/m (linear interpolation) 470 MHz and above 500 microV/m > Nevertheless, I would challenge anyone to make a radiofrequency power >amplifier with 1 kw RF output and sufficiently shield it to limit radiation >to 50 mV/m at 3 meters. > Since there are legal linear amplifiers in Amateur Radio service with 2kW PEP in the output stage, I wonder what the limit is for type acceptance? The limit cannot be much if any higher than the receiver emission limits is my guess. > Generally speaking, the FCC frowns big-time on homebuilt devices which >have a DC input power to the final radiofrequency amplifier of 0.1 watts >or more. Amateur Radio operators build transmitters and amplifiers with greater power all the time... They (mostly all) just make sure that they meet the applicable provisions before putting the device "on the air". The FCC has no (real) problem with that kind of device. > None of the part 15 frequencies would be suitable for television, >anyway. [David Anthony] Since any modulation is permissible above 70 MHz (given the limitations above), I fail to see how the frequencies are unsuitable. If the power level is what is unsuitable, and the person has the backing of an organization such as a University, then the person can apply for a special experimental allocation under Part 5, instead of operating under Part 15. Also doing without color, and limiting the resolution of the NTSC video will shrink the bandwidth requirements considerably. -- --==---==---==-- .. The jaws that bite, the claws that catch! .. ARPA: cgs@umd5.UMD.EDU BITNET: cgs%umd5@umd2 UUCP: ..!seismo!umd5.umd.edu!cgs
good@pixar.UUCP (02/08/87)
Is there anybody out there with solid information, both technical and legal,
about the wireless video setup used on David Letterman's show as the Monkeycam,
Guestcam, Bandcam, et al? It seems to have severe range problems inside the
studio, but perhaps a similar arrangement would work outdoors in a line-of-
sight situation. Yes, I noted how large the belt-worn battery/xmitter pack is.
Seperate problem. ;-)
--
--Craig
...{ucbvax,sun}!pixar!goodmaryr@well.UUCP (02/09/87)
.UUCP> Sender: Reply-To: maryr@well.UUCP (Mary C Rinaldi) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA Keywords: Ya, on those RPV's they spent like 400 million dollars and they didn't even have a good working model yet. Hooray for Gov't selective spending. These comments are mine and are no responsibility of mine.
maryr@well.UUCP (02/09/87)
CP> <1491@nicmad.UUCP> Sender: Reply-To: maryr@well.UUCP (Mary C Rinaldi) Followup-To: Distribution: na Organization: Whole Earth 'Lectronic Link, Sausalito, CA Keywords: What you could do is build an illegal plane that does what you want, then have it spy on the Chief Engineer's house, or whoever enforrces the rules and if you see him do anything book it out of there! ----I am a graduate of the school of cheating
store2@ihuxi.UUCP (02/10/87)
There was an ad in the classified section of the January 1987 issue of
VIDEO magazine for a product called TV GENIE. It is a wireless transmitter
that operates on UHF channel 14. They claim a range of 200 feet. It works
with all video sources. I assume you have to have a TV or VCR with a
composite video out to connect to this device. It looks like they have
RCA type connectors on it marked video and audio. It has a little rod
type antenna on it. It is listed at $88. They list a toll free number
if you want to call. 1-800-222-4707.
Note: This ad is not in the February issue of VIDEO. They might have
only bought one ad to see what the response would be or they might
be out of business already. I haven't called.
Kit Kimes
AT&T--Information Systems Labs
1100 E. Warrenville Rd.
Naperville, IL 60566
...ihnp4!iwvae!kimesron@brl-sem.UUCP (02/13/87)
In article <1490@nicmad.UUCP>, brown@nicmad.UUCP (Mr. Video) writes: > Ok, so I didn't know that a portion of the HAM band was opened up. > But, I got the impression from the poster that he wanted a cheap way > of doing it, ie, NTSC transmitter to a portable tv set. There aren't > many portable tvs around that pick up the ham frequency area. The > cheap way to a portable tv, over two miles, would require a transmitter > out of FCC minimum requirements for non-license. It wouldn't be difficult to create a battery powered converter for your watchman or whatever (probably one of those slide rule type tuned ones is better). You just need an oscillator and a mixer the same technology that allows you to shift the microwave HBO feeds down to the normal TV bands. It's just two circuit boards from interational crystal (are they still around?). -Ron
larson@sri-unix.UUCP (02/13/87)
> It wouldn't be difficult to create a battery powered converter for your > watchman or whatever (probably one of those slide rule type tuned ones > is better). You just need an oscillator and a mixer the same technology > that allows you to shift the microwave HBO feeds down to the normal > TV bands. I don't know why this was proposed as a video FM transmitter. In any case, reception of FM video is a bit more complex. Of course, if you were in the right frequency range, a TVRO system (with smaller dish) could make a good receiver, and probably do decent range with low power. Speaking of all this, whatever did the original poster decide to do? I would recommend getting an amateur license, and going for that, but perhaps an experimental license is availiable in Canada, similar to ones that are availiable in U.S. I would have substantial fear about flying a camera. Awfully expensive crash! Alan
dbb@aicchi.UUCP (02/13/87)
The "Rabbit" VCR multiplier is really a small TV transmitter that takes the output of your VCR and sends it to another TV in your house. These devices are sometimes heavily discounted. Youu could buy one, and re- package it for your aircraft. -- -David B. (Ben) Burch Analysts International Corp. Chicago Branch (ihnp4!aicchi!dbb) "Argue for your limitations, and they are yours." - R. Bach
ken@argus.UUCP (02/15/87)
In article <532@sdiris1.UUCP>, res@sdiris1.UUCP (Skip Sanders) writes: > VERY large difference in the power levels needed for a given range for > Voice/rc control and wide-band video... the ratio is that of the bandwidth > of the signals, roughly... which is about a thousand to one... I can understand why a larger bandwith is needed, does this translate into more power as well? > Skip - N6IMN > Skip Sanders : sdcsvax!jack!man!sdiris1!res -- Kenneth Ng: Post office: NJIT - CCCC, Newark New Jersey 07102 uucp !ihnp4!allegra!bellcore!argus!ken *** WARNING: NOT ken@bellcore.uucp *** bitnet(prefered) ken@orion.bitnet Gillian: "Are you sure you won't change your mind?" Spock: "Is there something wrong with the one I have?"
jimb@tekigm2.UUCP (02/17/87)
In article <1486@ihuxi.UUCP> store2@ihuxi.UUCP (Wilcox) writes: >There was an ad in the classified section of the January 1987 issue of >VIDEO magazine for a product called TV GENIE. > >Note: This ad is not in the February issue of VIDEO. They might have > only bought one ad to see what the response would be or they might > be out of business already. I haven't called. Look closely at that ad. You will see it has a Gresham Oregon address. That outfit has been introuble with the law (or on the edge of it) for several years. That little gizmo they are selling is ILLEGAL. The local Portland (Gresham is a suburb of Portland) FCC office has quite a file on that outfit and that particular unit and has warned them many times about selling and advertising that item. (I know, so why haven't they done anything about it). It is only a matter of time until the FCC has them good. They were also (previous owners) one of the big ones they got for selling MDS decoders a few years ago. The local cable company and HBO sued them and about a dozen others and HBO won. I would stay clear.