[sci.electronics] electrical codes

awalker@topaz.rutgers.edu ($ *Hobbit*) (02/09/88)

I have cause to seriously wonder how many commercial electricians have
really *read* these.  A hospital near me recently built a new wing that's been
plagued ever since with electrical fires.  Just the other night I found an
outlet in a friend's house whose ground lead wasn't ground, it was the other
side of the transformer, so between hot and the plate there was 240VAC.  Every
time I go to a hotel I find *something* wrong with the room wiring.  My current
place of residence even had some fairly strange kludges in it, most of which I
fixed and the rest weren't dangerous; whoever wired the upstairs-downstairs
light switch didn't get it right either.  Many of the screws in the breaker
box were loose, and the breaker box wiring itself looks like shit.

I have seen good installations with nice neatly-dressed-back wiring too, and
can't understand why there is so much variation among the work of tradesmen
who are all supposed to have read the same documents.  There's no way in hell
I'm going to let them anywhere near the wiring in *my* [hitherto theoretical]
house...

_H*

rees@apollo.uucp (Jim Rees) (02/10/88)

I completely rewired my house in Seattle myself, with a new 200 amp
service.  The old wiring was dog spit, and I assume it was done by
an amateur.

The big surprise to me was the inspection by the city for the wiring
permit.  I thought they would be looking for the same things you looked
for, open grounds, etc.  But they seemed much more concerned with what
I think of as the "convenience" part of the code (outlets every 12 feet,
two circuits in the kitchen, etc).  In fact, the only thing they made
me change, was that they said I had too many circuits in the kitchen.
I had the refrigerator on its own 20 amp circuit, and they made me put
another outlet on that same circuit, because they said that every kitchen
circuit has to be accessible.  After a careful reading of the code, I'm
convinced they were wrong.  By the way, I did have the required two
20 amp circuits in addition to the one for the fridge.

The worst botch by a pro I've ever seen was a guy who wired an entire
building (a small utility shed containing some ham and commercial
radio repeaters) with 240 across the 120 line.  He managed to blow
several thousand dollars worth of Motorola radio gear.

todd@uop.edu (Dr. Nethack) (02/11/88)

Not all home wiring is done by electricians.
Perhaps what some are encountering is the "Do it Yourself" "Expert".
Having worked behind a counter for several years, I have seen some
real crazy fuvg.

There was a guy who wanted to use zip cord in place of the asbestos
coated wire to hook up the elements in his electric range, because the
original had fried out.  "It looks the same to me"

People screwing flared gas fittings into iron pipe fittings and just
adding extra teflon tape or pipe dope.

The latest is that the PG&E has approved various types of plastic pipe
for gas lines.. so long as you bury a wire with it for location purposes.
This frightened me, as every year the DIY "Experts" rent trenching machines
for their or their neighbor's new sprinkler system.. and yes they tear
the hell out of old galvanized, and cast iron pipes.

Let alone a plastic gas line in immediate proximity to an internal combustion
engine.

We had a product rep. who took home a sprinkler timer, hooked it up in
his garage, and it blew off the wall. Not only had he not used the
supplied power transformer to step down the 110, he had hooked it right
into 220.  It went all the way across the room, and this guy should know
better, he sells the stuff!!

Aluminum wire is biggest culprit of fires in residential areas.  Now don't
get all upset if your main feed is aluminum, it is good for that.

It is horrible for the rest of the house, over time it loosens in the
connections, and then the resistance goes up, providing you with more
heat than you need inside your wall.

There is a nice little tube of bonding paste you can use to clamp the
aluminum to the copper (should you decide to  rewire).  

There is a fire or two per summer in one apartment complex around the
corner, all aluminum wiring.

I will agree that I do have a bias against the "contractor" mentality
as I have seen it.  In this town it is, "if it works, do it, especially
if it is cheap, and I can get the customer to pay top dollar for it"

The reason this upsets me, is I cannot count the times I have told these
contractors how to do their job and what the code permits.  These are
no longer the DIY guys, but the guys who are supposed to know what is
going on.  These are the same guys who knew the specs called for 220
in our new science building, and put in 220 all right, all of it in 3 phase.

Around here, most contractors are beer guzzling, apes.  There was one
team who came into the store every morning to get parts.  Coffee cup in
hand, and reeking of good ole mary jane. 

Well, I could go on, but you get the idea!!

---
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    Remember, Dr. Science has a Master's Degree, in *Science*

cgs@umd5.umd.edu (Chris Sylvain) (02/11/88)

In article <17905@topaz.rutgers.edu> awalker@topaz.rutgers.edu writes:
$ can't understand why there is so much variation among the work of tradesmen
$ who are all supposed to have read the same documents.

The blame cannot be placed solely on the tradesmen.. I think the greater part
of the blame should be assigned to the Building Inspectors: either some of them
just don't care that much, or they're getting cosy with the builders.

Half the house I'm in is good work (built ca. 1960), but I detect and abrupt
change in quality from one end of the house to the other. I suspect either the
inspector gave his approval before all the work had been completed, or the
foreman on the job told his people to "get a move on".. o'course, all the parts
used in the house were all UL approved, but much, much cheaper. *I* wouldn't
install the cheaper parts..

Having been a Quality Assurance Inspector for a small manufacturer of
commercial electronic communications equipment, the workers don't always
appreciate it when you play the part of the customer's (the workers prefer
Devil's) advocate. It takes time, but most will sensitize themselves to
quality issues.
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root@conexch.UUCP (Larry Dighera) (02/14/88)

In article <17905@topaz.rutgers.edu> awalker@topaz.rutgers.edu ($   *Hobbit*) writes:
>I have cause to seriously wonder how many commercial electricians have
>really *read* these.  A hospital near me recently built a new wing that's been
>plagued ever since with electrical fires.  Just the other night I found an
>
[...]
>I have seen good installations with nice neatly-dressed-back wiring too, and
>can't understand why there is so much variation among the work of tradesmen
>who are all supposed to have read the same documents.  There's no way in hell
>I'm going to let them anywhere near the wiring in *my* [hitherto theoretical]
>house...

I think it all depends on what you mean by "commercial electricians".  If 
you are referring to *UNION* electricians, you can rest assured that
they know the National Electric Code forward and back.  You see, in
order to become a member of the International Brotherhood of
Electrical Workers, you would have to work days and attend night school for
four years studying not only code, but lots of theory too.  I would be
willing to wager that the "neatly-dressed-back" wiring you have seen
was installed by a union shop.

Unfortunately, with the sentiment of the present regime in the White
House non-union labor has become very prevalent.  This seems to be the one
common failing of our society: The lowest bidder gets the job; quality
isn't an issue.


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dmt@ptsfa.UUCP (Dave Turner) (02/20/88)

In article <196@conexch.UUCP> root@conexch.UUCP (Larry Dighera) writes:
>In article <17905@topaz.rutgers.edu> awalker@topaz.rutgers.edu ($   *Hobbit*) writes:
>>I have cause to seriously wonder how many commercial electricians have
>>can't understand why there is so much variation among the work of tradesmen
>>who are all supposed to have read the same documents.  There's no way in hell
>
>Unfortunately, with the sentiment of the present regime in the White
>House non-union labor has become very prevalent.  This seems to be the one
>common failing of our society: The lowest bidder gets the job; quality
>isn't an issue.

I don't think that the current administration should be held responsible for
much of the poor quality in house wiring.

I bought a new house in New Jersey in 1967 and nearly every connection was
faulty. I first noticed the problem when an outlet overheated while I was
vacuuming the house. There were two 14 ga wires under each screw on the duplex
outlet. The leads were sloppily dressed, hot bare wires accessible etc.
Every screw on all outlets were loose. I doubt that the work was inspected.

When the telephone installer installed the phone he tore out two strips of
ceiling insulation and left it in a heap in the attic.

A guy in my carpool in NJ commented that he thought that a qualified amateur
often does better work that most commercial professional electricians, plumbers,
etc, etc simply because the amateur knows that it is his house and has pride in it.

I agree with him.


-- 
Dave Turner	415/542-1299	{ihnp4,lll-crg,qantel,pyramid}!ptsfa!dmt

wn9nbt@ea.ecn.purdue.edu (Dave Chasey) (02/21/88)

On the subject of bogus wiring practices, when I moved into my current house
I looked over some of the electrical work.   I was amused when I found a #6
bare ground wire grounding the electrical pannel to the incomming water line.
That is all well and good, but the house has all PVC (plastic) water pipe,
including the feed from the street.    They put a ground clamp on the water
heater shutoff valve, with plastic pipe on each side !   In talking with the
owner, who was the original purchaser when the house was new, he said that the
union electrical inspector made the original union electricians go back and
install the ground wire since the code mandates it.   It had no exceptions
for PVC plumbing.    The pannel also has a ground wire to a ground rod, so 
the pannel is in fact grounded, but sometimes the code and inspectors need to
have a bit of common sense.  It makes me wonder what else is hidden in the 
walls and attic..........   Dave Chasey
				pur-ee!wn9nbt
				wn9nbt@ea.ecn.purdue.edu

dave@onfcanim.UUCP (Dave Martindale) (03/07/88)

In article <4134@ptsfa.UUCP> dmt@ptsfa.UUCP (Dave Turner) writes:
>
>A guy in my carpool in NJ commented that he thought that a qualified amateur
>often does better work that most commercial professional electricians, plumbers,
>etc, etc simply because the amateur knows that it is his house and has pride in it.

The other difference is that the amateur can afford to take the time to do
it right.  I generally do my own electronic repair, electrical repair,
plumbing, auto mechanics, and other things.  I always take longer than
a professional would.

If I look only at dollars spent, I almost always save a bunch of money
even if I sometimes have to buy another tool to do the job.  Howver, if
I count my own time at $20/hr, then it's cheaper to do it myself only
sometimes.

As an example, I recently fixed my Sony D5 CD player, which had been
having tracking problems.  The fault turned out to be a flexible circuit
board which was damaged by too much flexing and had developed cracked
conductors.  I trimmed it a few mm shorter and resoldered it, for a net
cost of $0.  If I'd taken it to Sony, the first thing they would have done
is replaced the entire laser pickup assembly (which would have fixed the
problem, even if they hadn't figured out what it was) at a cost of
$150 or so for the part plus maybe 3 hours labour.  I figure I saved
$200 - $250 fixing it myself.  On the other hand, it took me a lot more
than 10 hours to find the problem.

But then again, it looks like the circuit board had been damaged when
the laser assembly had previously been replaced by Sony under warranty.
In that case, the problem was really a bad transistor and not the laser
assembly at all.  So, if I'd done the troubleshooting myself then,
even though the set was in warranty, perhaps it would have never
developed this later problem.  And that would have saved a *lot* of time.