steves@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM (Steve Shellans) (07/02/88)
All this talk about "whispering wires" has started a train of thought.
Would it be possible to tap part of the energy from those high voltage
power transmission lines?
Here is my line of reasoning. I'm a CS type, not an EE, so please excuse
any blunders. If you have an AC transmission line, each wire has a
60Hz magnetic field around it (in USA). If you place an inductor (at ground
level) such that it is closer to one wire than the others, it seems to me
you could draw power out of it. Or perhaps you could shield it in such
a way that it "saw" only one of the wires.
If it's a DC transmission line, you would have to rotate the inductor
thru the field. Couldn't this be accomplished by a motor that ran
off (some) of the power that you were extracting? Of course, it
would have to be started by hand.
Questions:
1. Are the transmission wires far enough apart that you could get the
magnetic field from one of them without being cancelled out by
the other(s)? Alternatively, how could the device be shielded
so that it 'saw' only one wire?
2. Does anyone know how to do the calculations to see how much power
you could get as a function of voltage and current thru the
transmission line, distance from the line(s), and size of the
inductor?
3. Can anyone suggest some equipment for a field experiment?
4. What percentage of the high-voltage lines that one sees in the
countryside are AC and what percentage are DC?
Steve Shellans
Tektronix, Beaverton, OR
tektronix!tekgen!stevessparks@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Steve Gaarder) (07/05/88)
In article <3170@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM> steves@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM (Steve Shellans) writes: >If you have an AC transmission line, each wire has a >60Hz magnetic field around it (in USA). If you place an inductor (at ground >level) such that it is closer to one wire than the others, it seems to me >you could draw power out of it. Well, you probably could. There's a story I heard once: A transmission line somewhere crossed over a number of farmers' fields. Some one figured out that if you wound a coil of wire around two of the towers near the ground, you could draw power from it. Soon all the farmers in the area were doing it, and the power company freaked out when the losses on that line went through the roof as a result. It is said that the power company couldn't stop the farmers, and wound up giving them free electricity if the agreed to stop this inductive tapping. (I have no idea how true this story is) -- Steve Gaarder Cornell University, 171 Hollister, Ithaca NY 14853 607-255-5389 UUCP: {cmcl2,shasta,rochester,uw-beaver}!cornell!batcomputer!sparks BITNET: sparks@crnlthry.BITNET ARPA: sparks@tcgould.tn.cornell.edu
eric@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Eric Novikoff) (07/07/88)
You CS types need to take an E+M class!!!! If you're lucky enough to still be in school and you're really interested, go for it. A lot of what you discussed comes perilously close to Perpetual Motion! (Especially the DC transmission line stuff - you'd have to put as much energy into the motor as you got out of the coil....) If you want free power, buy a nice little house on a acre of land near a creek in the Appalachians, the Adirondacks, the Rockies, the Sierras, the Cascades, etc. and install your own hydro plant. I have a friend in the Adirondacks who does just that and has the power company BUY the extra electricity back! Plus he has something to tinker with on those long weekends.... Have fun!
maxwell@ablnc.ATT.COM (Robert Maxwell) (07/07/88)
In article <5373@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>, sparks@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Steve Gaarder) writes: > In article <3170@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM> steves@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM (Steve Shellans) writes: > >If you have an AC transmission line, each wire has a > >60Hz magnetic field around it (in USA). If you place an inductor (at ground > >level) such that it is closer to one wire than the others, it seems to me > >you could draw power out of it. > > Well, you probably could. There's a story I heard once: > A transmission line somewhere crossed over a number of farmers' fields. Some > one figured out that if you wound a coil of wire around two of the towers > near the ground, you could draw power from it. Soon all the farmers in the > area were doing it, and the power company freaked out when the losses on > that line went through the roof as a result. It is said that the power > company couldn't stop the farmers, and wound up giving them free electricity > if the agreed to stop this inductive tapping. I can't verify if the story is true, but I have heard that farmers along the Columbia River tapped the power generated by the dams on the river. I was told that they used insulated wire for their fences and were able to light their homes and barns with it. The other difference in the story as I heard it was that the power company ( a U. S. Gov't corporation along the lines of TVA ) was able to stop the practice by charging the farmers with theft of the power. I think the name of the corporation was Bonneville, but I am sure that someone will correct me or give us the full name of the corporation (whether or not we really want to know.) :-) -- ----------------------------------------------------------------------------- R. M. Maxwell AT&T IMS | I speak for nobody- Maitland, FL ablnc!jezebel!bob | not even myself. -----------------------------------------------------------------------------
logajan@ns.ns.com (John Logajan x3118) (07/07/88)
In article <3170@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM>, steves@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM (Steve Shellans) writes: > Would it be possible to tap part of the energy from those high voltage > power transmission lines? It is possible to place an inductor near any AC source and tap some of the energy present. The problem is that the field density is very low and the coupling (distance etc) is not good. So you really can't get much power out of such a scheme. To draw power from a DC field by 'rotating' your inductor would require that you put in as much (more actually) power as you get out. Your just using a permenant magnet type field. Again the fields around DC lines are very weak. Also I believe there are a lot more AC lines than DC, but I am not sure about that. - John M. Logajan @ Network Systems; 7600 Boone Ave; Brooklyn Park, MN 55428 - - {...amdahl!ems, ...uunet!rosevax, ...rutgers!dayton} !umn-cs!ns!logajan -
todd@uop.edu ( Dr. Nethack ) (07/07/88)
Yes it is possible to "rip off" power from lines. The family I used to live with, has an uncle who uses borrowed power to run a string of light bulbs in his barn this way. This was hashed over last year.. anyone save a copy? You want to really talk about "free" power?? Nahh, I don't want to vanish into never-never land just yet! Can't say everything I know about!! --- ARPA cogent!uop!todd@lll-winken.arpa BITNET ucdavis!uop!todd@ucbvax.BITNET Or something like that UUCP ucbvax!ucdavis!uop!todd anyway... UUNET uop!todd@uunet.uu.net
khai@amara.uunet (Sao Khai Mong) (07/07/88)
In article <3170@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM> steves@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM (Steve Shellans) writes: > If it's a DC transmission line, you would have to rotate the inductor > thru the field. Couldn't this be accomplished by a motor that ran > off (some) of the power that you were extracting? Of course, it > would have to be started by hand. No, you can't from a DC line. The juice you get out of the inductor will be your mechanical energy input. You are talking about perpertual motion here. Before you get to a DC xmission line, might try your theory by using a permanent magnet first! > 1. Are the transmission wires far enough apart that you could get the > magnetic field from one of them without being cancelled out by > the other(s)? Alternatively, how could the device be shielded > so that it 'saw' only one wire? You could use some iron or steel plates in some configuration, in theory. > > 2. Does anyone know how to do the calculations to see how much power > you could get as a function of voltage and current thru the > transmission line, distance from the line(s), and size of the > inductor? Very little energy can be obtained for practical purposes. Cost/kw will be enormous. I have heard that you can light up flourescent lights under HT AC wires, but they light up due to the electric field, not the magnetic field. > 4. What percentage of the high-voltage lines that one sees in the > countryside are AC and what percentage are DC? Almost all are AC. I think that there are probably fewer than ten DC links in the US, and probably not more than twenty in the world. -- --------------------+------------------------------------------------------- ...uunet!amara!khai | Applied Dynamics International, 3800 Stone School Road khai@amara.uucp | Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105, U.S.A (313) 973-1300 --------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
jku@kolvi.hut.fi (Juha Kuusama) (07/08/88)
Yes, it is indeed possible to tap energy from power lines. A few years ago there was a court case in Finland; somebody had done just that. The power company has noticed. (Of course; if you have a few hundred kilovolt line, you look after it VERY carefully!) And, the man was found guilty (of course) to theft. So, you can do it, but better not! (The company will notice it; you will be charged, electrically and legally!) -- Juha Kuusama, ...!mcvax!tut!kolvi!jku
strong@tc.fluke.COM (Norm Strong) (07/08/88)
In article <537@ablnc.ATT.COM> maxwell@ablnc.ATT.COM (Robert Maxwell) writes: }In article <5373@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu>, sparks@batcomputer.tn.cornell.edu (Steve Gaarder) writes: }> In article <3170@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM> steves@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM (Steve Shellans) writes: }> one figured out that if you wound a coil of wire around two of the towers }> near the ground, you could draw power from it. Soon all the farmers in the }> area were doing it, and the power company freaked out when the losses on }> that line went through the roof as a result. It is said that the power }> company couldn't stop the farmers, and wound up giving them free electricity }> if the agreed to stop this inductive tapping. } }I can't verify if the story is true, but I have heard that farmers along }the Columbia River tapped the power generated by the dams on the river. } }I was told that they used insulated wire for their fences and were able }to light their homes and barns with it. Get real! I've heard this one since I was a kid. It's one of the great body of Urban Myths, and goes right along with the story about Standard Oil suppressing the carburetor that would give every car 100miles per gallon. -- Norm (strong@tc.fluke.com)
rsd@sei.cmu.edu (Richard S D'Ippolito) (07/08/88)
In article <4353@fluke.COM> Norm Strong writes: >Get real! I've heard this one since I was a kid. It's one of the great body >of Urban Myths, and goes right along with the story about Standard Oil >suppressing the carburetor that would give every car 100miles per gallon. Hey Norm, you reminded me of the gadget that sprayed water along with the natural gas into the furnace to double (or was it triple?) the efficiency! Rich
dave@sdeggo.UUCP (David L. Smith) (07/09/88)
In article <1310011@hpcilzb.HP.COM>, eric@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Eric Novikoff) writes: > You CS types need to take an E+M class!!!! If you're lucky enough to still be > in school and you're really interested, go for it. A lot of what you > discussed comes perilously close to Perpetual Motion! Interestingly enough, power line induction was used to power one (not-so) perpetual motion machine. The person who writes the Ariadne column in the back of the New Scientist magazine made a little machine that went around and around and around with no visible means of power. He then invited reporters, scientists, etc. to examine the machine, in any manner they wanted with the stipulation that they couldn't move it. No one tumbled to the fact that it was actually running off an induced current from the wiring in the wall (it used a very trivial amount of power). -- David L. Smith {sdcsvax!jack,ihnp4!jack, hp-sdd!crash, pyramid, uport}!sdeggo!dave sdeggo!dave@amos.ling.edu Sinners can repent but stupid is forever.
collinge@uvicctr.UUCP (Doug Collinge) (07/10/88)
In article <1310011@hpcilzb.HP.COM> eric@hpcilzb.HP.COM (Eric Novikoff) writes: >You CS types need to take an E+M class!!!! Listen politely but do not accept the assurances of an scientist or engineer who says something cannot be done. They seem to be highly inclined to invoke their intuition and call it science, extrapolationg wildly or applying formulae while not accounting for unknown variables. I don't know why this is but it certainly gives science a bad name. How often do you hear scientists say "We really don't understand much about this..."? A wonderful example: I was watching some show, 60 Minutes or somesuch, listening to a hydrogeologist laughingly put down water diviners, saying that "it just doesn't work" and so on as if he knew BECAUSE HE IS A HYDROGEOLOGIST. Well, I know it works because I use it to find buried pipes. I don't know if it works for digging wells but I certainly would not claim it is impossible. Anyway, in the case of the farmers stealing power from transmission lines, I'd take the one guy's word that he'd seen it done over dozens of EEs waving transformer equations proving that it can't be done. -- Doug Collinge School of Music, University of Victoria, PO Box 1700, Victoria, B.C., Canada, V8W 2Y2 collinge@uvunix.BITNET decvax!uw-beaver!uvicctr!collinge ubc-vision!uvicctr!collinge
khai@amara.uucp (Sao Khai Mong) (07/10/88)
In article <449@uvicctr.UUCP> collinge@uvicctr.UUCP (Doug Collinge) writes: > Listen politely but do not accept the assurances of an scientist or engineer > who says something cannot be done. They seem to be highly inclined to For that matter, also listen politely and do not accept the assurances of faith-healers, levitators, diviners, etc, who make outrageous claims. > A wonderful example: I was watching some show, 60 Minutes or somesuch, > listening to a hydrogeologist laughingly put down water diviners, saying > that "it just doesn't work" and so on as if he knew BECAUSE HE IS A > HYDROGEOLOGIST. Well, I know it works because I use it to find buried > pipes. I don't know if it works for digging wells but I certainly would > not claim it is impossible. I think that I saw that segment of 60 minutes. If I remember correctly, the old diviner never found any water, or wasn't any better than chance > Anyway, in the case of the farmers stealing power from transmission lines, > I'd take the one guy's word that he'd seen it done over dozens of EEs > waving transformer equations proving that it can't be done. So far, all claims in this forum has been hearsay, or more accurately, second and nth hand accounts. Surely, this is easily verifiable. You can work out the equations, like I did when was taking courses in EM, or you can go and look for court records about farmers being sued. But some people are quite happy to accept assurances from somebody the have never ever met face-to-face. Why don't you trust the transformer equations for this instance anyway? It is because of the accuracy of these equations that you can sit at a computer and look at this message at this very moment. -- --------------------+------------------------------------------------------- ...uunet!amara!khai | Applied Dynamics International, 3800 Stone School Road khai@amara.uucp | Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105, U.S.A (313) 973-1300 --------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
chris@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek) (07/11/88)
In article <449@uvicctr.UUCP> collinge@uvicctr.UUCP (Doug Collinge) writes: >Listen politely but do not accept the assurances of an scientist or >engineer who says something cannot be done. This is almost right. (Add the word `blindly' between `accept' and `the'.) >They seem to be highly inclined to invoke their intuition and call it >science, extrapolationg wildly or applying formulae while not >accounting for unknown variables. This is known as `being human'. >water diviners ... I know it works because I use it to find buried pipes. This is known as `silly'. (The easiest way to find buried pipes is to look at the plans.) >I don't know if it works for digging wells .... Of course it works for digging wells. Anything that includes digging works for digging wells. Divination simply does not work any better than digging more or less at random. Divination gets studied every once in a while. Diviners claim to be able to find all sorts of things, but every reasonable test always comes up with results equivalent to chance. (This is not precisely true: often people know more than they think they know about finding things. Divination is a simple means of tapping that hidden knowledge.) What does any of this have to do with electronics? -- In-Real-Life: Chris Torek, Univ of MD Comp Sci Dept (+1 301 454 7163) Domain: chris@mimsy.umd.edu Path: uunet!mimsy!chris
jans@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM (Jan Steinman) (07/12/88)
<<4. What percentage of the high-voltage lines that one sees in the countryside are AC and what percentage are DC?>> <Almost all are AC...> I don't think this is correct. I've seen pictures of huge (I mean 40-60 feet tall) thyristors, which are supposedly used for line synching high voltage DC transmission lines to a local grid. I believe the article mentioned that DC transmission was efficient enough to more than overcome the conversion losses. I didn't work out the math, nor can I recall the publication. Anyone else know something about this? :::::: Software Productivity Technologies -- Experiment Manager Project :::::: :::::: Jan Steinman N7JDB Box 500, MS 50-383 (w)503/627-5881 :::::: :::::: jans@tekcrl.TEK.COM Beaverton, OR 97077 (h)503/657-7703 ::::::
khai@amara.uucp (Sao Khai Mong) (07/12/88)
In article <3677@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM> jans@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM (Jan Steinman) writes: > > <<4. What percentage of the high-voltage lines that one sees in the countryside > are AC and what percentage are DC?>> > <Almost all are AC...> > > I don't think this is correct. I've seen pictures of huge (I mean 40-60 feet > tall) thyristors, which are supposedly used for line synching high voltage DC > transmission lines to a local grid. I believe the article mentioned that DC > transmission was efficient enough to more than overcome the conversion losses. > No, almost all lines are indeed AC; there are only about ten or so DC links in the USA. Seeing pictures does not imply their widespread use. Look at HT (high tension) lines across the country. You are sure to see only three or six wires (ignore the differently-sized protective ground wire) and that is almost a dead giveaway that it is an AC line. (Three phase xmission) HVDC transmission is quite a new idea compared to AC and there has not been enough time for it to be in widespread use. Perhaps because you live in Oregon, you may have had biased opinion: There is indeed at least two HVDC lines from Oregon or Washington to Southern California. It's called the Pacific intertie. Cons against DC 1. Those thyristors and associated control circuitry are very expensive and in most cases not worth the extra money. 2. Conversion to DC produce a lot of power line harmonics which require still more expensive filters to remove them. 3. HVDC switches are still infant technology. It is very hard to stop hundreds of amps flowing at xxx000's voltage. AC switches are easier because they use the zero crossing to extinguish the arc. As a result there are no HVDC networks; they are exclusively used for point to point transmission and reconversion back to AC. 4. HVDC transformation to higher and lower DC voltages is not feasible at the moment. Another factor against networks. 5. For unknown reasons, environmentalists oppose DC lines more than AC lines; hence it is more difficult to get right-of-way's to build DC lines. 6. Residential power distribution will always be AC for my lifetime. Some Pros for DC. 1. Good for connecting networks of different frequencies. Sometimes they even have DC transformers back-to-back without any lines. 2. You don't have to worry about power system stability and power transmission limits. In fact, power system stability can be enhanced by the use of DC with appropriate controls. Power system stability is the reason for those whole area blackouts, like the one in New York in 1965, etc. 3. More efficient when you talk only about transmission line losses. 4. Capability to operate using only one wire in emergencies. (Frowned upon by environmentalists, sailors who have to navigate over these cables., etc) 5. Underwater transmission (E.g. under the English channel) because DC at steady state does not care about the high capacitance of underwater cables. 6. Great thesis topic for budding PhDs. This is by no means complete. Remember, Thomas Edison lost out to Westinghouse, Tesla, et al, and would still lose today. -- --------------------+------------------------------------------------------- ...uunet!amara!khai | Applied Dynamics International, 3800 Stone School Road khai@amara.uucp | Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105, U.S.A (313) 973-1300 --------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
todd@uop.edu ( Dr. Nethack ) (07/13/88)
In article <KHAI.88Jul10111343@amara.uucp>, khai@amara.uucp (Sao Khai Mong) prattles: > In article <449@uvicctr.UUCP> collinge@uvicctr.UUCP (Doug Collinge) writes: > > Listen politely but do not accept the assurances of an scientist or engineer > > who says something cannot be done. They seem to be highly inclined to > > For that matter, also listen politely and do not accept the assurances > of faith-healers, levitators, diviners, etc, who make outrageous claims. The problem is not what "branch" of reason, it is how the structure of the reason acts as a filter to inhibit the collection of data. In a good light this is called having a good crap detector. However, in general the things that we learn, also keep us from learning other things. > I think that I saw that segment of 60 minutes. If I remember correctly, > the old diviner never found any water, or wasn't any better than chance Look buccko, you did not reply to the rest of what he said.. he mentioned having done it himself to find old pipes.. I have also done this.. with my eyes closed and did find old pipes.. You may not believe in the term "water witch" but I certainly have found that there are changing resonances near metallic objects, or objects of differing conductivity to the surrounding environs. That is how a metal detector works.. metal detectors are just not passive. > So far, all claims in this forum has been hearsay, or more accurately, > second and nth hand accounts. > Surely, this is easily verifiable. You > can work out the equations, like I did when was taking courses in EM, > or you can go and look for court records about farmers being sued. > But some people are quite happy to accept assurances from somebody the > have never ever met face-to-face. Why don't you trust the transformer > equations for this instance anyway? It is because of the accuracy of > these equations that you can sit at a computer and look at this > message at this very moment. Why don't you trust the FACT that sometimes equations don't fully describe phenomenon? When was the last time you stood under some high voltage lines and waved a flourescent tube around? Did it light? Or was that not possible either? I hate to belabour the point. But the family I used to live with has family in the midwest.. THEY RUN THE LIGHTS IN THE BARN THIS WAY!! The father in the family I used to live with was an electronics hack in the Navy.. not that he is a genius. But he did inspect the "circuit", and it was NOT plugged into a wall outlet somewhere. Do I have to make it more clear than this?? All formulae aside, this guy would not bullshit me, he was amazed himself. And I commented that I had heard stuff like this before. Now, your transformer equations work as well.. but do you really think we know everything yet?
khai@amara.uucp (Sao Khai Mong) (07/13/88)
In article <1606@uop.edu> todd@uop.edu ( Dr. Nethack ) writes: > Look buccko, you did not reply to the rest of what he said.. he > mentioned having done it himself to find old pipes.. I have also done > this.. with my eyes closed and did find old pipes.. You may not > believe in the term "water witch" but I certainly have found that > there are changing resonances near metallic objects, or objects of > differing conductivity to the surrounding environs. > That is how a metal detector works.. metal detectors are just not passive. Boy, this is getting to be like that levitation argument on sci.misc. I do not know the conditions under which you found the old pipes, and cannot really test you under controlled conditions, so its no use arguing. But can you please define exactly what you mean by "changing resonances"? Yes, you are right about metal dectectors, however are you claiming that the operation of divining rods (those wishbone birch twigs or whatever) operate on the same principle? > I hate to belabour the point. But the family I used to live with > has family in the midwest.. THEY RUN THE LIGHTS IN THE BARN THIS WAY!! Can you provide a more accurate description of how they operated the thing? Honestly, I am curious, to find out where my training went wrong. How long was the pick coil? How many loops did it have? How big an area did it cover? > The father in the family I used to live with was an electronics > hack in the Navy.. not that he is a genius. But he did inspect the > "circuit", and it was NOT plugged into a wall outlet somewhere. Do I > have to make it more clear than this?? All formulae aside, this guy > would not bullshit me, he was amazed himself. And I commented that I > had heard stuff like this before. If my brother was an electronic technician, wouldn't I have loved to pull off an April fool's joke on him. > Why don't you trust the FACT that sometimes equations don't fully > describe phenomenon? When was the last time you stood under some high > voltage lines and waved a flourescent tube around? Did it light? Or > was that not possible either? Well, I do admit that equations sometimes don't full describe certain things. For instance, the equations might say that you can draw 10 mW by inductance air coupling, when in fact you can draw 20 mW. But surely you jest when you say you can actually draw 1000 W. I am off on vacation for two weeks; my site keeps sci.misc only 7 days, so E-mail me about the layout of the coils. -- --------------------+------------------------------------------------------- ...uunet!amara!khai | Applied Dynamics International, 3800 Stone School Road khai@amara.uucp | Ann Arbor, Michigan 48105, U.S.A (313) 973-1300 --------------------+-------------------------------------------------------
proctor@ingr.UUCP (John Proctor) (07/14/88)
In article <3677@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM>, jans@tekgvs.GVS.TEK.COM (Jan Steinman) writes: > <<4. What percentage of the high-voltage lines that one sees in the countryside > are AC and what percentage are DC?>> > <Almost all are AC...> > > I don't think this is correct. I've seen pictures of huge (I mean 40-60 feet > tall) thyristors, which are supposedly used for line synching high voltage DC > transmission lines to a local grid. I believe the article mentioned that DC > transmission was efficient enough to more than overcome the conversion losses. > > I didn't work out the math, nor can I recall the publication. Anyone else know > something about this? > > :::::: Software Productivity Technologies -- Experiment Manager Project :::::: > :::::: Jan Steinman N7JDB Box 500, MS 50-383 (w)503/627-5881 :::::: > :::::: jans@tekcrl.TEK.COM Beaverton, OR 97077 (h)503/657-7703 :::::: DC transmission lines are used in two general areas: 1) Where the transmission line connects two systems of differeing frequency standards. An example of this is a large hydroelectric power generating plant in Brazil that produces power for two different countries. One at 50 Hz and the other at 60 Hz. DC interconnection and regeneration of AC power solves the frequency sync problem as well as providing better transient stability. 2) Where the distances are great (i.e. 700 miles or more) for a continuous line DC transmission results in lower losses and improves transient stability. There are several long DC lines in Scaninavia and I think DC was considered for the James Bay project in Canada but I'm not sure if it was addopted. For what it is worth! John D. Proctor | Usenet: {ihnp4,uunet}!ingr!jdp!proctor Intergraph Corp. | ARPAnet: uu.net.uunet@ingr!jdp!proctor | US Post: 1 Madison Industrial Park Usual Disclaimers Apply | Huntsville, AL 35807-4201 A foolish consistency is the hobgoblin of little minds, adored by little statesmen and philosophers and divines. "Self Reliance" by Ralph Waldo Emerson
todd@uop.edu ( Dr. Nethack ) (07/14/88)
In article <12401@mimsy.UUCP>, chris@mimsy.UUCP (Chris Torek) writes: > >water diviners ... I know it works because I use it to find buried pipes. > > This is known as `silly'. (The easiest way to find buried pipes is to > look at the plans.) Now I don't know about everyone out on the net.. but that tells me right there you have not done a whole lot of real world plumbing or anything!! If I had a dollar for every set of plans that was supposed to be followed, that was not followed..(that I had to fix).. I could have made almost as much as what I was making per hour!! In plumbing, electrical, computer systems..
jeffw@midas.TEK.COM (Jeff Winslow) (07/15/88)
In article <KHAI.88Jul13231632@amara.uucp> khai@amara.uucp (Sao Khai Mong) writes: >Can you provide a more accurate description of how they operated the >thing? Honestly, I am curious, to find out where my training went >wrong. How long was the pick coil? How many loops did it have? >How big an area did it cover? And when you get that information (don't forget the relative position, spacing, and bend of the power lines), I'd like to see at least a summary of the relevant equations, hopefully obviously related to Maxwell's equations (I doubt you're going to find any standard transformer equations for *that* geometry), which say it can't be done. I'm not convinced it can't. Jeff Winslow
todd@uop.edu ( Dr. Nethack ) (07/15/88)
In article <KHAI.88Jul13231632@amara.uucp>, khai@amara.uucp (Sao Khai Mong) writes: > > In article <1606@uop.edu> todd@uop.edu ( Dr. Nethack ) writes: > > > Look buccko, you did not reply to the rest of what he said.. he > > mentioned having done it himself to find old pipes.. I have also done > > this.. with my eyes closed and did find old pipes.. You may not > > believe in the term "water witch" but I certainly have found that ^^^^^^^^^^^ I will add, that I don't either! > > there are changing resonances near metallic objects, or objects of > > differing conductivity to the surrounding environs. > > That is how a metal detector works.. metal detectors are just not passive. > Boy, this is getting to be like that levitation argument on sci.misc. No it is not, this has to do with measurable electromagnetics. > I do not know the conditions under which you found the old pipes, and > cannot really test you under controlled conditions, so its no use > arguing. But can you please define exactly what you mean by > "changing resonances"? Sure, lets try to guess what is going on.. I am walking (upright, vertical) I am carrying two copper rods about 12 guage in my hands, about 12" long each, bent at 2" with the long ends extended in front of me.. (held in thumb and index finger) As I walked, the little beggers occasionally swing from pointing front, to pointing at each other, or laying along the line of the pipe run. This is a type of antennae effect (I am guessing) since the copper is parallel to the pipe in question. Some type of conduction or something is going on. I presume it is an electrical effect of somekind.. Would you doubt it if I said a compass could do the same thing? (this I did not try) > Yes, you are right about metal dectectors, > however are you claiming that the operation of divining rods (those > wishbone birch twigs or whatever) operate on the same principle? Sorry, no twigs here, just copper.. don't intend to try twigs. > > I hate to belabour the point. But the family I used to live with > > has family in the midwest.. THEY RUN THE LIGHTS IN THE BARN THIS WAY!! > Can you provide a more accurate description of how they operated the > thing? Honestly, I am curious, to find out where my training went > wrong. How long was the pick coil? How many loops did it have? The only description I recieved was "wires wrapped all over the beams in the barn. > If my brother was an electronic technician, wouldn't I have loved to > pull off an April fool's joke on him. > > Why don't you trust the FACT that sometimes equations don't fully > > describe phenomenon? When was the last time you stood under some high > > voltage lines and waved a flourescent tube around? Did it light? Or > > was that not possible either? > > Well, I do admit that equations sometimes don't full describe certain > things. For instance, the equations might say that you can draw 10 mW > by inductance air coupling, when in fact you can draw 20 mW. But > surely you jest when you say you can actually draw 1000 W. I did not say that I drew 1000W. I said they lit up! Read about Nikola Tesla, then tell me what you think.
jpederse@encad.Wichita.NCR.COM (John Pedersen) (07/16/88)
In article <320@ns.ns.com> logajan@ns.ns.com (John Logajan x3118) writes: |>In article <3170@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM>, steves@tekgen.BV.TEK.COM (Steve Shellans) writes: |>> Would it be possible to tap part of the energy from those high voltage |>> power transmission lines? |> |>It is possible to place an inductor near any AC source and tap some of the |>energy present. The problem is that the field density is very low and the |>coupling (distance etc) is not good. So you really can't get much power out |>of such a scheme. To draw power from a DC field by 'rotating' your inductor |>would require that you put in as much (more actually) power as you get out. Heres another good use for low cost superconductivity........ -- John.Pedersen@Wichita.NCR.COM NCR Engineering & Manufacturing EMC Engineering Wichita KS 316-636-8837
barnett@vdsvax.steinmetz.ge.com (Bruce G. Barnett) (07/21/88)
Re: dowsing.
If you can prove you can divine water, Randi will give you $10,000.
He has tested several dowsers. Each claimed beforehand that they
could detect water 90% of the time. Each one failed 100% of the time.
They were at a loss for words at their inability to locate water under
>test< conditions.
Learn the basic facts of the scientific method, bucko.
Learn the truth about properly conducted experiments and the
double-blind method.
Your "personal proof" is as valid as the "proff" about walking under
ladders causing bad luck, spilled salt, Ouija boards and black cats.
This discussion does not belong under sci.*
--
Bruce G. Barnett <barnett@ge-crd.ARPA> <barnett@steinmetz.UUCP>
uunet!steinmetz!barnett