die@cpoint.UUCP (David I. Emery) (11/20/88)
In article <1227@microsoft.UUCP> michaelw@microsoft.UUCP (Michael Winser) writes: >In article <1405@neoucom.UUCP> wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes: >>I'd like to see a microwave or infrared operated mouse that used >>doppler shift or some form of interferometry for sensing motion >>over an arbitrary surface. I suppose this could be done with an > >I do think getting rid of the rodent's tail would be very nice, it's >always getting tangled up with my keyboard and monitors etc. A boring bit of hardware suggestion. IR is subject to shadowing by the users hand and rf links in VHF or UHF or low microwave are expensive (because of the need to handle strong nearby signals) and there are only limited channels available anyway. How about plain old induction with the mouse transmitting somewhere in the vlf or lf range on a narrow band fsk'd carrier (say 180 khz +- 500 hz) to a simple loop antenna in the mousepad (and nearby for those who want to use the mouse on any surface). A more complex but interference resistant modulation might be some form of direct sequence spread spectrum similar to what has been tried experimentally to send data on carrier current over power lines. Unfortunately this implies a battery powered mouse unless the pickup antenna loop could also serve to create a lf ac magnetic field strong enough to power the mouse. One advantage of this is that, at least with a mousepad mouse, the coupling would be uniformly strong near the mousepad and weak to the mousepad on the system at the next desk. RF linked systems and especially optical systems might have real problems with multiple mice in an office area or terminal room due to mutual interference. -- David I. Emery Clearpoint Research Corp. 99 South Street, Hopkinton Ma. 01748 1-508-435-2000 {decvax, cybvax0, mirror}!frog!cpoint!die
jimc@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Cathey) (11/30/88)
In article <1381@cpoint.UUCP> die@cpoint.UUCP (David I. Emery) writes: > Unfortunately this implies a battery powered mouse unless the >pickup antenna loop could also serve to create a lf ac magnetic field strong >enough to power the mouse. I would think a field strong enough to power a mouse might not be too good a thing to have on your desktop if you strew floppies about like I do! +----------------+ ! II CCCCCC ! Jim Cathey ! II SSSSCC ! ISC Systems Corp. ! II CC ! TAF-C8; Spokane, WA 99220 ! IISSSS CC ! UUCP: uunet!iscuva!jimc ! II CCCCCC ! (509) 927-5757 +----------------+ "With excitement like this, who is needing enemas?"
wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) (12/01/88)
Hmm, using inductuive coupling to power the mouse... Where I used to work, we had a big Summagraphics tablet. It was pretty old, and used a pretty strong magnetic field to scan the tablet. We had lots of incidents where poeple would forget and discover that their DEC RX-50 8" disks they had thrown carelessly onto the tablet were wiped clean. Now, of course, the optical disk used in the NeXT system has a magnetic coercivity much, much higer than the average floppy diskette, so this is not likely to be much of a problem. I don't mind the cord too much, but I sure would like to be able to get rid of the mechanical wheels and/or the mouse plate. You might be able to make a mouse with interferometry techniques as are used in fiberoptic avionic gyro systems. But then, the mouse would probably be kind of big and cost as much as the rest of the computer.. Give the engineers a few more years. --Bill return mail path: ...!lll-winken!scooter!neoucom!impulse!wtm
domo@riddle.UUCP (Dominic Dunlop) (12/01/88)
In article <1381@cpoint.UUCP> die@cpoint.UUCP (David I. Emery) writes: [Stuff about need for tail-less mice with infra-red or microwave communications omited.] >How about plain old induction with the >mouse transmitting somewhere in the vlf or lf range on a narrow band >fsk'd carrier (say 180 khz +- 500 hz)... Better pitch that away from a band which is used for public broadcast services in many places outside North America. But then, Jobs has said that he has no plans whatever to export the cube... -- Dominic Dunlop domo@sphinx.co.uk domo@riddle.uucp
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (12/03/88)
In article <1425@neoucom.UUCP> wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes: >I don't mind the cord too much, but I sure would like to be able to >get rid of the mechanical wheels and/or the mouse plate... The original Xerox optical mouse did not require a mouse pad -- it would work reasonably well on any surface with ample contrasty detail. -- SunOSish, adj: requiring | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology 32-bit bug numbers. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
dale@oakhill.UUCP (Dale Stevens) (12/03/88)
Don't forget the worst problem with getting rid of the cord. The mouse is now not connected to anything. I don't know what kind of problems would be seen in a university setting, but I have seen things "wander" around if they are not heavy or tied down. One day the optical mouse pad for our Sun was found across the production floor under a Machintosh mouse. Something to think about.
wgb@inuxj.UUCP (Walter Burton) (12/06/88)
> In article <1425@neoucom.UUCP> wtm@neoucom.UUCP (Bill Mayhew) writes: > >I don't mind the cord too much, but I sure would like to be able to > >get rid of the mechanical wheels and/or the mouse plate... I knew there was a reason track balls always seemed attractive. Think about it. Most track balls are small as a mouse or ones can be found that small. Track balls don't need a pad or surface and with som velcro or double face tape can attach to a keyboard. Not bulky and doesn't have to be a permanent mount and no extra surface needed. Now if some keyboard folks are out there how about putting trackballs into the keyboard. ***************************************************************** *My .signature is not working. Hand built by me Walt Burton. * * Live from Indianapolis, in the heart of the SILICON CORNFIELD.* * Walt Burton AT&T Indianapolis (317)-845-3665 !inuxj!wgb * ***************************************************************** By the way is this making it out of Indianapolis?
mayer@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM (Niels Mayer) (12/07/88)
In article <342@inuxj.UUCP> wgb@inuxj.UUCP (Walter Burton) writes: >I knew there was a reason track balls always seemed attractive. Yes, indeed, trackballs are wonderful. On my HP9000s350 (aka Bobcat), I replaced my HP 3 button mouse with an HP 3 button trackball (P.N. M1309A) and I love it! Either or both plug right into the HP-HIL (human intrface loop) bus. I no longer have to take my eyes off the screens to locate the mouse, and I find that hand-eye coordination is improved for most windowing operations such as cut/paste, boinking on buttons, scrolling scrollbars, resizing/moving windows, etc. With a trackball, you can control the sprite position with much precision by "letting your fingers do the walking" whereas with a mouse, you must move your wrist and arm too. The muscles controlling the latter have far less resolution and control than one's fingers. Finally I often have to move the sprite large distances when I need to zip between the two X11 displays on my system: with a trackball, that's easy, you just spin the ball and stop it when the sprite reaches it's destination. With a mouse, you have to drag it across the mouse pad, stop, pick up the mouse, move it to the other side of the mouse pad, drag it again, etc etc etc. A very tiresome, unintuitive and unnecessary set of actions. I've also put the trackball on the floor and used it as a "football". Unfortunately my foot-eye coordination ain't so hot, and it's difficult to keep your toe on a button while rolling the ball. However, in that position, you can als ouse it as a foot massager, like the ones found in yuppie new age stores, next to the orgone regenerators and mystik chakra fluffers. -- Niels.
cook@stout.ucar.edu (Forrest Cook) (12/07/88)
In article <342@inuxj.UUCP> wgb@inuxj.UUCP (Walter Burton) writes: >I knew there was a reason track balls always seemed attractive. ... >Now if some keyboard folks are out there how about putting trackballs >into the keyboard. Trackballs are indeed very nice devices for entering xy coordinates. Unfortunately, the mouse has one big advantage: the ability to move and click buttons at the same time with one hand. This would be difficult on a trackball. Too bad a mouse doesn't have momentum like a trackball. ^ Forrest Cook (The preceding comments were my Opinions) ^ /|\ /|\ /|\ {husc6 | rutgers | ames | gatech}!ncar!stout!cook /|\ /|\ {uunet | ucbvax | allegra | cbosgd}!nbires!ncar!stout!cook /|\
blknowle@uokmax.UUCP (Bradford L Knowles) (12/07/88)
In article <342@inuxj.UUCP> wgb@inuxj.UUCP (Walter Burton) writes: >Now if some keyboard folks are out there how about putting trackballs >into the keyboard. Already been tried -- The company went belly-up (apparently they were a couple of years ahead of their time). As for the NAME of the company, I can't remember it to save my life (but it WAS a really good keyboard, just ask Jerry Pournelle). > >***************************************************************** >*My .signature is not working. Hand built by me Walt Burton. * >* Live from Indianapolis, in the heart of the SILICON CORNFIELD.* >* Walt Burton AT&T Indianapolis (317)-845-3665 !inuxj!wgb * >***************************************************************** >By the way is this making it out of Indianapolis? My .sig has never worked -- it's always been done by hand (kind of) and just "cat'ed" into vi. Perhaps it's best that they aren't working, as I understand it, whatever programs they use to read news, NONE of them use .sigs right. Oh vell... =-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-=-= Please reply via EMAIL! I read the net, but it sometimes interferes with school. If I get any really interesting stuff, I'll summarise and post. -Brad Knowles UUCP: ...!ihnp4!occrsh!uokmax!blknowle OR: ...!texsun!uokmax!blknowle ARPA: blknowle@uokmax.ecn.uoknor.edu SNAIL: 1013 Mobile Circle Norman, OK 73071-2522 Disclaimer: (The above opinions are my own. They have nothing to do with the Univeristy of Oklahoma nor intelligence of any sort. :-)
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (12/08/88)
In article <2699@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM> mayer@hplabs.hp.com (Niels Mayer) writes: >... With a trackball, you can >control the sprite position with much precision by "letting your >fingers do the walking" whereas with a mouse, you must move your wrist >and arm too... I often have to >move the sprite large distances... >d with a trackball, that's easy, you just spin >the ball and stop it when the sprite reaches it's destination. With a >mouse, you have to drag it across the mouse pad, stop, pick up the >mouse, move it to the other side of the mouse pad, drag it again, etc etc etc. >A very tiresome, unintuitive and unnecessary set of actions. Complain to your mouse supplier, he's botched the design. He's got it in excessively low gear. High-resolution mice largely eliminate these problems. -- SunOSish, adj: requiring | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology 32-bit bug numbers. | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
jimc@iscuva.ISCS.COM (Jim Cathey) (12/10/88)
In article <1988Dec7.180813.17915@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article <2699@hplabsz.HPL.HP.COM> mayer@hplabs.hp.com (Niels Mayer) writes: >>...With a >>mouse, you have to drag it across the mouse pad, stop, pick up the >>mouse, move it to the other side of the mouse pad, drag it again, etc. >>A very tiresome, unintuitive and unnecessary set of actions. >Complain to your mouse supplier, he's botched the design. He's got it in >excessively low gear. High-resolution mice largely eliminate these problems. Most manufacturers of mice don't _really_ understand what's part of a good mouse interface. The best mice are the original 'low-speed' mice used in conjunction with a mouse driver that provides variable scaling based on the speed of the mouse. The low-speed mice used plain are a pain to cover any distance with, and the high-speed mice are a pain to position precisely. In other words, fix it in software! A snap of the wrist gets it in the right neighborhood, and about the same travel again (but slower) homes it in. A really good driver will let you set the scaling to a comfortable level for each individual. +----------------+ ! II CCCCCC ! Jim Cathey ! II SSSSCC ! ISC Systems Corp. ! II CC ! TAF-C8; Spokane, WA 99220 ! IISSSS CC ! UUCP: uunet!iscuva!jimc ! II CCCCCC ! (509) 927-5757 +----------------+ "With excitement like this, who is needing enemas?"