benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) (12/25/88)
How can I use a 9-volt battery and other componentsx to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? I want something which will get hot without shorting out the 9-volt. Will diodes work, or am I mistaken? -- _ /| When you link up to a VAX or UNIX without a "shell", you're linking \'o.O' with every other VAX or UNIX that the admin has been with! =(___)= Stoplights timed for 35 MPH are also timed for 1,244,740 MPH!!!! U Don't respond to watmath!looking!funny.Flame to benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.com
raoul@eplunix.UUCP (Otero) (12/26/88)
> How can I use a 9-volt battery and other componentsx > to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? Hmmm, what you need is a high-power output to a high-temperature source. A 9-volt probably will not do it, unless you get really cute. See, the power output is limited by the maximum current out of the battery, which is limited by the internal resistance of it. 9-volts are very low current devices. The nichrome igniters used by rocket hobbyists is probably your best bet: it heats up very hot, very fast, and lasts long enough to ignite most rocket engines. Get the ones with the blob of flammable stuff in the middle, they work better. What are you trying to ignite, anyway? -- Nico Garcia, Engineer, CIRL Mass. Eye and Ear Hospital raoul@eplunix
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (12/26/88)
In article <2557@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) writes: > How can I use a 9-volt battery and other componentsx > to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? > I want something which will get hot without shorting out the 9-volt. This wouldn't be to ignite the combined hydrogen and oxygen products of electrolysis of water, would it? :-) > Will diodes work, or am I mistaken? You are mistaken. If you are into model rockets (as your subject line implies), there are "reasonably" safe model rocket motors which use an "electric squibb" for ignition, the design of which is already performed for you by the vendor. A hobby shop dealing with model airplanes can usually obtain model rocket supplies. With respect to answering your original question, I must decline since I feel such discussion would be inappropriate for the Net. You pose a practical question whose answer is applicable to a wide variety explosive devices. <> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <> UUCP: {allegra|ames|boulder|decvax|rutgers|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {att|hplabs|mtune|utzoo|uunet}!/ <> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3 modes} "Have you hugged your cat today?"
pozar@hoptoad.uucp (Tim Pozar) (12/26/88)
In article <2557@ddsw1.MCS.COM> benfeen@ddsw1.UUCP (Ben Feen) writes: > >How can I use a 9-volt battery and other componentsx > to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? > I want something which will get hot without shorting out the 9-volt. >Will diodes work, or am I mistaken? Nichrome wire. Works perfectly by just stuffing it up a solid fuel rocket motor (Estes like). It will also lite fuses. You can get it at any hobby shop that carries supplies for model rockets. Tim -- ...sun!hoptoad!\ Tim Pozar >fidogate!pozar Fido: 1:125/406 ...lll-winken!/ PaBell: (415) 788-3904 USNail: KKSF / 77 Maiden Lane / San Francisco CA 94108
berryh@udel.EDU (jOHn BErRyhIlL) (12/27/88)
In article <2557@ddsw1.MCS.COM> benfeen@ddsw1.UUCP (Ben Feen) writes: > >How can I use a 9-volt battery and other components > to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? Get some Estes Rocket Engine Igniters from your local hobby store. They are pieces of small gauge nichrome wire with some kind of match head type stuff on them. They are made for use with Estes model rocket engines, but have a wide variety of other applications. -------------------------=< John B. Berryhill >=------------------------- 143 King William St. Newark, DE 19711 (302) 453-1578 "I am not arguing with you, I'm telling you" -- JM Whistler
mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) (12/27/88)
I used to break apart vacuum tubes for their filament material. A piece about 1/4 inch long driven by six volts of D cells would set off a mixture of oxygen and hydrogen quite nicely. (I'm talking about 1/4" of filament wire after you've broken the ceramic coating and stretched it out.) For reliable electric fuses, nothing beats photographic flashbulbs. Be sure to remove the "protective" plastic coating for best results. Many gun shops sell black powder (gunpowder for people who roll their own ammo). Even with the plastic coating on, a flash bulb sets this stuff off pretty well. Always remember the safety rule for gunpowder: If it doesn't have a casing, it doesn't go BOOM !!! Come to think of it, that's not the safety rule. I think the safety rule was: Don't mix carpet tacks with the powder, put them around the sides. No, no, that wasn't it either. It was something like: Keep a shorting bar across the fuse until the last moment before you run away.
jbn@glacier.STANFORD.EDU (John B. Nagle) (12/28/88)
There's an excellent solution to this guy's problem. I have some
misgivings about posting it, but since there are other ways to make various
sorts of destructive devices, I've decided to do so.
The highest power-to-weight ratio in batteries is found in the Polaroid
PolaPulse (TM) battery. This is a flat object about the size of a playing
card and about 2mm thick. One is inside every Polaroid film pack. These
units are designed to deliver about 10-20 amps, as I recall, for a second
or so at a time, and provide the energy to drive the motor that forces the film
through the developing rollers. You can buy the batteries from Polaroid in
a somewhat more convenient form than one obtains by dismantling a film
cartridge, and Polaroid sells a developer's kit for these units.
John NagleWINNIE@pucc.Princeton.EDU (Jon Edelson) (12/28/88)
In article <2557@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) writes: > >How can I use a 9-volt battery and other componentsx > to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? > I want something which will get hot without shorting out the 9-volt. >Will diodes work, or am I mistaken? Any component will get hot if you pump enough current through it, and diodes will allow that :-) Actually, you want something that is high in resistance in a small place. These are sold by Estes as model rocket igniters. Something that you can do is take a piece of wire and bend it at a sharp angle, then cut throught most of the wire at the bend so that you end up with two thick wires joined by a very thin bridge. If you run current through it, the bridge will get hot. I have done this with copper wire- nicrome might be better. Although you are "shorting" the battery, the cross section of the thin part is very small, so it isn't much of a short. Also, the wire melts away rapidly, so the current drain does not last long. -Jonathan Edelson winnie@pubear.princeton.edu @pucc.bitnet @pucc.princeton.edu @phoenix.princeton.edu " Where am I going? I don't quite know. Down to the stream where the king-cups grow- Up on the hill where the pine-trees blow- When We Were Very Young Anywhere, anywhere. *I* don't know. " by A. A. Milne
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (12/28/88)
In article <17942@glacier.STANFORD.EDU>, jbn@glacier.STANFORD.EDU (John B. Nagle) writes: > The highest power-to-weight ratio in batteries is found in the Polaroid > PolaPulse (TM) battery. As far as I know, in a _commercially_ available battery, the highest energy-to-weight ratio is found in a lithium-thionyl chloride cell. Short circuit currents for a D-cell sized lithium-thionyl chloride battery can approach HUNDREDS of amperes. As a demonstration, I have seen a string of such batteries having a total size less than 2 D-cells start a full-sized automobile. Lithium-thionyl chloride batteries are not the same as the lithium batteries used in watches and electronic memory circuits (this variety is typically a lithium-manganese dioxide cell). Electrochem Industries in Clarence, NY is a major manufacturer of lithium-thionyl chloride batteries for commercial and military applications. > This is a flat object about the size of a playing > card and about 2mm thick. One is inside every Polaroid film pack. These > units are designed to deliver about 10-20 amps, as I recall, for a second > or so at a time, and provide energy to drive the motor that forces the film > through the developing rollers. You can buy the batteries from Polaroid in > a somewhat more convenient form than one obtains by dismantling a film > cartridge, and Polaroid sells a developer's kit for these units. Polaroid has been discouraging OEM sales of the Polapulse battery, and now sells it indirectly through an exclusive marketing agreement with Power Card Corp. in Waltham, MA. Interesting enough, the Polapulse battery uses pretty conventional Leclanche chemistry (zinc and manganese dioxide); the physical design of the battery is indeed clever, though. The Polapulse P100 (the original SX70 battery) has some interesting discharge characteristics. Instantaneous short circuit current is 19 amps, which drops to 8.5 amps after 30 seconds, and which further drops to 4 amps after 60 seconds. At a continuous discharge current of 0.1 amps the P100 is rated at 0.232 ampere-hours, but at a continuous discharge current of 5.0 amps, the rating is only 0.018 ampere-hours. High discharge currents have an extremely deleterious effect upon the energy life of the battery. Gould makes a flat lithium-manganese dioxide battery under the tradename of Powerdex, which is roughly comparable to the Polapulse. The Gould battery has much higher energy capacity (1.4 ampere-hour), but cannot provide discharge currents in excess of 0.5 ampere. As I understand it, Gould is actively pursuing OEM applications for their battery; Polaroid doesn't seem too interested unless you want to buy 100,000,000 batteries per year. :-) <> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <> UUCP: {allegra|ames|boulder|decvax|rutgers|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {att|hplabs|mtune|utzoo|uunet}!/ <> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3 modes} "Have you hugged your cat today?"
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (12/28/88)
In article <12974@cup.portal.com>, mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) writes: > For reliable electric fuses, nothing beats photographic flashbulbs. Be sure > to remove the "protective" plastic coating for best results. > > Many gun shops sell black powder (gunpowder for people who roll their own > ammo). Even with the plastic coating on, a flash bulb sets this stuff off > pretty well. > > Always remember the safety rule for gunpowder: If it doesn't have a casing, > it doesn't go BOOM !!! > > Come to think of it, that's not the safety rule. I think the safety rule was: > Don't mix carpet tacks with the powder, put them around the sides. Congratulations, I knew SOMEONE would do it, and it was you! You give the Net explicit instructions on how to build an explosive device capable of no purpose other than to destroy life and property. Excuse my prejudice, but is it just coincidence that you happen to be an account holder on Portal? The original poster was obviously no bona fide model rocket hobbyist; if he were, he would not have posed a naive question about 9-volt batteries and diodes (as fuses). Can you think of any lawful purpose other than model rocketry to pose such a question? Might he have something _other_ than model rockets in mind? Do you feel a sense of satisfaction that you have furnished explicit instructions to an obviously naive poster (and to God knows who else) on how to build a gen-u-wine explosive device capable of serious personal injury and destruction of property? You seem to find amusement in the effects of an explosive advice. I can assure you that few, if any, people who have ever served in the military or worked as a fireman or police officer would share your amusement. I have done forensic science consulting to certain law enforcement agencies for the past 17 or so years; I am not the greatest expert in any one area, but I come cheap because I enjoy the analytical challenge. I have seen firsthand the effects of explosive devices, and do not find it a joking matter. Some years ago in the days before ICP, when my organization had a JACO 3.4 meter Ebert spectrograph (once THE state of the art emission spectrograph), I did some analysis for a law enforcement agency on the residue of a fatal pipe bomb explosion. I signed for a large plastic evidence bag containing about 1 kg of material, and put in in my lab. It sat for two days in a locked cabinet before I could get to it. I then dumped the contents on a large tray to sort out under a stereomicroscope and find specimens to prepare as samples for analysis. In the roughly 1 kg of material, I found close to 100 g of bone and assorted human remains. Perhaps you will now understand why I find no amusement in explosive devices. I would also like to point out that while I have done a number of dumb things in my youth involving chemicals and pyrotechnics, I never, ever, constructed any device which could even be loosely construed as a bomb. <> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <> UUCP: {allegra|ames|boulder|decvax|rutgers|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {att|hplabs|mtune|utzoo|uunet}!/ <> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3 modes} "Have you hugged your cat today?"
annala@neuro.usc.edu (A J Annala) (12/29/88)
It seems strange to me that everyone replying to the original request for information on how to construct a reliable igniter for model rocket concentrated on home made igniters, estes motors, and ethical problems believed to be associated with disclosing information on any devices with explosive/pyrotechnic capabilities. No one refered the original poster to the 1960's vintage books on building larger model rockets out of aluminum pipes filled with star shaped propellant castings with all of the appropriate safety precautions spelled out in great detail. I don't recall the name of the specific book or author ... but we had a lot of fun as teenagers building 6 foot long 3 inch diameter rockets with a much longer range and higher boost capability than any estes product outside of their ramjet engines. Only one of these "devices" blew up on the pad ... and as a consequence of the safety instructions my crew and I were all well protected behind our earthen bunker. Personally, if I wanted to build bombs I'd buy military surplus goods containing the appropriate detonators, propellants, and explosives. I wouldn't bother trying to jury rig some home brew detonators ... they are just going to be far too dangerous. As far as other uses for this information (e.g. the flame on reviewing the possibility of using flash bulbs as reliable ignitors for gun powder), has anyone considered going into the special effects business (e.g. fake explosions with a lot of flash and no concussion?) for assisting in movie making. We at USC have a very good film school ... and this is just the kind of advice which would be helpful in setting up such innocuous explosions safely.
larry@kitty.UUCP (Larry Lippman) (12/30/88)
In article <14335@oberon.USC.EDU>, annala@neuro.usc.edu (A J Annala) writes: > No one refered the original > poster to the 1960's vintage books on building larger model rockets out > of aluminum pipes filled with star shaped propellant castings with all > of the appropriate safety precautions spelled out in great detail. I > don't recall the name of the specific book or author ... but we had a > lot of fun as teenagers building 6 foot long 3 inch diameter rockets > with a much longer range and higher boost capability than any estes > product outside of their ramjet engines. Only one of these "devices" > blew up on the pad ... and as a consequence of the safety instructions > my crew and I were all well protected behind our earthen bunker. Times have changed. What was acceptable in the 1960's may not be acceptable today due to increased congnizance of health, safety and environmental issues. Many restrictions on the use and transportion of pyrotechnic and explosive devices have occured since those in existance in the 1960's. A 6 foot 3 inch diameter rocket filled with propellant will hardly be considered a "model rocket" today! Furthermore, not everyone follows safety instructions, expecially with respect to the effort involved in building an "earthen bunker". > Personally, if I wanted to build bombs I'd buy military surplus goods > containing the appropriate detonators, propellants, and explosives. I > wouldn't bother trying to jury rig some home brew detonators ... they > are just going to be far too dangerous. I'm glad that you agree "home brew detonators" would be "far too dangerous". Guess what? You can't buy them military surplus, either. Explosives, propellants and detonators (with the sole exception of some magneto "blasting machines" which have occasionally turned up) have _never_ been lawfully sold as military surplus. Even the sale of surplus small arms ammunition was halted by the Defense Logistics Agency in the 1950's. > As far as other uses for this > information (e.g. the flame on reviewing the possibility of using flash > bulbs as reliable ignitors for gun powder), has anyone considered going > into the special effects business (e.g. fake explosions with a lot of > flash and no concussion?) for assisting in movie making. We at USC have > a very good film school ... and this is just the kind of advice which > would be helpful in setting up such innocuous explosions safely. Explosives use for legitimate motion picture operations is carefully regulated, and any special effects technician involved will be required to have the same licenses and permits (which vary from state to state, in addition to involving ATF) as one who handles explosives for say, a mining operation. There are almost no unregulated pyrotechnic products used in motion picture production, with the possible exception of lycopodium powder. Do you think that the USC "film school" is a free-for-all for anyone who wants to devise new explosives under the guise of motion picture use? Get real. Don't take my word for it, though; ask someone who is professionally involved with motion picture production. There is a REAL PROBLEM, TODAY, involving the construction of pipe bombs and other explosive devices by juveniles and high school students. In 1988, less than six miles from where I live there were two pipe bomb explosions in high schools. In the incident which occurred at Lancaster (NY) High School, the intended victim (yes, there was one) lost some fingers, in addition to sustaining other injuries. In the incident which occurred at Akron (NY) High School, a pipe bomb exploded in a locker, spraying a hallway with shrapnel - just five minutes before class change (fortunately no one was injured - 5 minutes difference would have resulted in carnage). Someone sent me email claiming that the poster of the article posing the original question about building detonators was only 13 years old. It is true that sufficient information exists in the public domain with respect to construction of detonators and explosive devices. If someone wants it that badly - and has the intelligence and maturity to know where to look - they will find it. Under the circumstances, however, it is irresponsible for anyone to post such explicit information to the Net - expescially for the benefit of a 13-year old! <> Larry Lippman @ Recognition Research Corp., Clarence, New York <> UUCP: {allegra|ames|boulder|decvax|rutgers|watmath}!sunybcs!kitty!larry <> VOICE: 716/688-1231 {att|hplabs|mtune|utzoo|uunet}!/ <> FAX: 716/741-9635 {G1,G2,G3 modes} "Have you hugged your cat today?"
piner@pur-phy (Richard Piner) (12/30/88)
In article <17942@glacier.STANFORD.EDU> jbn@glacier.UUCP (John B. Nagle) writes: > > The highest power-to-weight ratio in batteries is found in the Polaroid >PolaPulse (TM) battery. This is a flat object about the size of a playing > Just to bring things full circle, sort of, I have seen Estes ignition systems sold, and they were designed to use PolaPulse batteries. Indeed, the batteries were right there next to the system. Basicly, you can get everything you need for electic fuses at any store that sells model rocket supplies. (Some stores keep the hot stuff behind the counter nowadays. So ask.) Richard Piner
mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) (12/30/88)
In part, I felt my technical tips were amusing. But in equal part, I wasok offended by your suggestion that you had information which you were holding back from the Net for the protection of ourselves, society at large, yourself, or whoever. Restriction of the free flow of information really sets me off. You were waving a red flag in front of a bull. I didn't reveal stuff I considered really nasty. Like how to modify common insecticides to increase their potency toward mammilian species. Or how to make efficient mechanisms for dispersing a poisonous liquid into an aerosal. In fact, I consider the facts I disclosed to be rather obvious to the thinking mind. Do the readers of this newsgroup prefer self-censorship, external censorship, or no censorship at all? I suspect the vast majority prefer no censorship at all. Am I right or am I wrong? C'mon net.electronics, pass judgement on Larry Lippman vs. me! Do you want maximum facts, or just the facts you can be trusted with?
dillon@jumbo.dec.com (John Dillon) (12/31/88)
In article <13062@cup.portal.com>, mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) writes: > I didn't reveal stuff I considered really nasty. In other words, you and Larry Lippman differ only in where to draw the line. > In fact, I consider the facts I disclosed to be rather obvious to the > thinking mind. a) Let thinking minds think for themselves; they enjoy it. b) The net delivers email to thinking and unthinking minds alike. c) Unthinking mind + dangerous data = hazard at large. I am inclined to draw the line rather conservatively. You are wrong; please heed Larry Lippman. -- John disclaimer n. 1. the act of disclaiming; the renouncing, repudiating, or denying of a claim; disavowal. 2. a person who disclaims. 3. a statement, document, or the like, that disclaims.
chan@ames.arc.nasa.gov (Jeff Chan) (12/31/88)
From article <13062@cup.portal.com>, by mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson): > In part, I felt my technical tips were amusing. But in equal part, I wasok > offended by your suggestion that you had information which you were holding > back from the Net for the protection of ourselves, society at large, yourself, > or whoever. Restriction of the free flow of information really sets me off. > You were waving a red flag in front of a bull. I consider these issues to be central to American society (and its problems) too (although very likely not central to sci.electronics, but I'm merely following up). "The free flow of information" is really freedom of speech which is one of the rights that makes America great. Of course it can be abused by people who are irresponsibile or who want to destroy resposibility, but I for one would not like to see freedom of speech curtailed in any way. "Protection of ourselves" reminds me of a favorite pet peeve akin to taking away candy from kids (which of course is now being done in the name of health). My pet peeve is the eventual banning of fireworks. This is relevant to the current discussion in that people who have access to "dangerous" fireworks usually learn to respect their power when the fireworks are safely used under adult supervision. I think there are many valuable lessons from such experience, not the least of which is learning to be responsible for your own actions (which you do sort of "own"). These devices are admittedly hazardous and are potentially dangerous *if a human being misuses them*, and they really drive home the idea that there are dangers in the world, but that through responsible action, we can control some of them. (I'm tempted to make a gun analogy, but a car can be and is more often used as a deadly weapon. I'm opossed to drinking (drugs) and driving but I hate seeing MADD pushing unconstitutional road blocks in the name of safety. Can anyone say "illegal search and seizure?" Does anyone remember learning about the actions of the British Army in colonial America? Can anyone say "restrictions on freedom of movement"?) People who grow up expecting and having "them" to protect us from this and that (why don't "they" do something about x) will likely have a less concrete understanding of their own potential for death and destruction. They are probably also less clear on their own potential for good and why the founding fathers demanded freedom *and* responsibility. > In fact, I consider the facts I disclosed to be rather obvious to the > thinking mind. Yes, and anyone who can't figure out how to make a bomb more lethal will probably blow him/herself up in the first few attempts anyway. (1/2 Darwinian :-) The original poster may not have had any evil intentions, but he should be made to realize that otherwise decent people who offensively harm other people *will* suffer punishment. (Prison would surely be a living hell.) But we don't know; perhaps the poster merely wanted to safely set off some fireworks at midnight on new years eve? It's actually too bad that the laws and spirit of the times are so opressive that someone can't just come out and ask about such an application. > Do the readers of this newsgroup prefer self-censorship, external > censorship, or no censorship at all? I suspect the vast majority prefer > no censorship at all. I prefer no censorship for the same reasons as above. People are only *truly free* when their words and actions are unrestricted; people can only be *truly responsible* when they have a clear understanding of the consequences of their unrestricted words and actions. (Is this a form of anarchism? If so I think it is not contrary to the American ethic.) If you are "protected" from ever having to consider the consequences of your own actions, you will have a hard time developing a moral conscience and clear judgement. (I don't know if I'm convincing anyone, but I most definitely appreciate the *opportunity to try*. Do you understand why?) My personal opinions, (*) Jeff C. Internet: chan@ames.arc.nasa.gov UUCP: ames!chan (*) This is a disclaimer claiming freedom of speech and protecting my employers {& employment :-}; it does not mean that I think what I say should be ignored as personal opinion. (I got into a long conversation about this on the net with someone else, so I thought I'd explain it here.)
john@uw-nsr.UUCP (John Sambrook) (01/01/89)
In article <14335@oberon.USC.EDU> annala@neuro.usc.edu (A J Annala) writes: >It seems strange to me that everyone replying to the original request >for information on how to construct a reliable igniter for model rocket >concentrated on home made igniters, estes motors, and ethical problems >believed to be associated with disclosing information on any devices >with explosive/pyrotechnic capabilities. No one refered the original >poster to the 1960's vintage books on building larger model rockets out >of aluminum pipes filled with star shaped propellant castings with all >of the appropriate safety precautions spelled out in great detail. I >don't recall the name of the specific book or author ... but we had a >lot of fun as teenagers building 6 foot long 3 inch diameter rockets >with a much longer range and higher boost capability than any estes >product outside of their ramjet engines. Only one of these "devices" >blew up on the pad ... and as a consequence of the safety instructions >my crew and I were all well protected behind our earthen bunker. I remember that when I was in high school (circa 1975) the library had an issue of "Scientific American" that described how to build a 'model' rocket, that sounds much like the one you describe. The column was "The Amateur Scientist," I think. The rocket was moderately complex, for something you build as an 'amateur.' It definitely had an aluminum body tube. It also involved rather large amounts of propellant, the composition of which I don't remember. The article also suggested creating a bunker, out of old railroad ties, I think. Geez, can you imagine somebody setting off one of these puppies in his back yard? Not to mention the hazards to aircraft. -- John Sambrook Internet: john@nsr.bioeng.washington.edu University of Washington RC-05 UUCP: uw-nsr!john Seattle, Washington 98195 Dial: (206) 548-4386
benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) (01/02/89)
Sender: Reply-To: benfeen@ddsw1.UUCP (Ben Feen) Followup-To: Distribution: Organization: ddsw1.MCS.COM, Mundelein, IL Keywords: Look, everybody. If I WANTED to build a bomb I could. I had a very bad experience with calcium carbide at school once. I had brought it to science class as a part of a discussion of caves (it's used in spelunkers' headlamps) and stored it in my gym locker since the gym period and science period are right next to each other. Through a misunderstanding, the stuff ended up wet in a garbage can in the bathroom. It COULD have turned into a bad situation, but I knew exactly what I was dealing with and acted accordingly. Because of that one incident, I'm STILL introduced to people by my friends as "The guy who built the carbon (sic) bomb and blew up the gym". Anyway, the point is that is I wanted to make a bomb, I'd do it with potassium nitrate and aluminum filings and charcoal and good rocket launchers which are commercially produced. I WOULDN'T do it with spit and calcium carbide and a cigarette. I would take a Coke bottle, put tinfoil and a certain ingredient (very easy to get) into it, and chuck it down the hall. BUT I DON'T. The reason is simple. I don't like hurting people. But let's say someone does a horrible deed unto me. I take a M-80 casing from a certain company, the address of which I have, and fill it with a certain chemical, like pressure sensitive flash powder, then stick it in the jerk's locker. He opens his locker, it blows up in his face, and... FEEN DID IT! He's the one who blew up the gym! (I didn't do that, remember? ) I get blamed. I go to court. I end up either in Junior Detention Home or in jail. So I would never actually build a bomb, not even paint somebody's chair with ammonium tri-iodide. I want to know about the rocket launcher (nichrome wire) because I'm interested in electronics. I would rather use an Estes rocket launcher IF I built a bomb, which I wouldn't, than some idea thought up by a kid at MIT which won't work unless it's submerged in some chemical, and if it isn't it blows me up............ But I digress. Thanx everybody! I'll digest all this and send it back without headers.
jeffw@midas.TEK.COM (Jeff Winslow) (01/03/89)
I think Larry's just worried that Ben Feen is Mark Ethan Smith's nephew. Oh, if you insist. :-)
jeffw@midas.TEK.COM (Jeff Winslow) (01/03/89)
Alright, who's the fuckhead who cross-posted from sci.electronics into talk.politics.misc? If anybody had any doubts that thoughtless dissemination of information can lead to major unpleasantness, those doubts will soon be put at rest. I want my low-volume newsgroup back!! (Followups are directed to talk.politics.misc, which I don't read. Take a hint.) Jeff Winslow
ornitz@kodak.UUCP (barry ornitz) (01/03/89)
In article <13062@cup.portal.com> mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) writes: >Am I right or am I wrong? C'mon net.electronics, pass judgement on Larry >Lippman vs. me! Do you want maximum facts, or just the facts you can be >trusted with? I feel Mark is wrong here. Knowledge alone does not create wisdom; responsi- bility is also needed. There was considerable discussion on the net recently about teaching ethics to computer scientists. I wonder if Mark thinks the author of the Worm program that caused chaos on the net should be praised or punished? Accepting responsibility for your actions is a moral as well as legal issue. Larry and I have seen the results of amateur pyrotechnists and bomb makers (see my posting in sci.space on model rockets). I do not want to see more kids maimed or killed like the three this past weekend in D.C. Larry Lippman has repeatedly demonstrated his wisdom on the net. Mark Thorson has only shown that he can post some "facts" without thinking about the consequences. Barry L. Ornitz P.S. My apologies for posting this in sci.electronics. If this discussion continues, it should be moved elsewhere. ----------------- | ___ ________ | | | / / | | Dr. Barry L. Ornitz UUCP:..rutgers!rochester!kodak!ornitz | | / / | | Eastman Kodak Company | |< < K O D A K| | Eastman Chemicals Division Research Laboratories | | \ \ | | P. O. Box 1972 | |__\ \________| | Kingsport, TN 37662 615/229-4904 | | -----------------
billw@unix.SRI.COM (William E. Westfield) (01/03/89)
Mumble. Freedom. Right. In a recent SF convention panel on censorship, I did mention that I found it rather depressing that modern encycolpedias no longer seem to include detailed formulas for various explosive and pyrotechnic substances. I guess I believe in evolution, but perhaps population densities are getting to high to make this practical. Sigh. Anyway, the easiest thing I ever found to ignite electrically is steel wool - 3 volts or so will do it (and it is cheap too!). If you want to get fancy, you can seperate individual strands and make a sort of lamp filamant with a couple copper leads. With a bigger battery, you can just stick a couple of leads into a loosley packed lump of the stuff. Now for the electronics lesson... What you want to do is get a small piece of wire very hot. To do this you want the wire to dissipate a lot of power (in the form of heat, of course). The relevant equations are (Voltage = Current * Resitance) and (Power = Current * Voltage) Combine them and get (Power = R * Current ^2) or (Power = (Voltage ^2)/R). This first of these is more useful - You want the part of the ignition system that is supposed to get hot to have a higher resistance than the rest of the circuit - If you made the whole thing out of nichrome, then the power available will be dissipated equally thoughout, and no particular part will get hot enough to be interesting. Then you want the wire that is getting hot to have appropriate properties - nichrome is widely used because of its electrical characteristics and because is holds up well to repeated heatings and coolings (not particurally important for an igniter). Steel wool burns nicely. Wire wrap wire melts annoyingly if you happen to short out a polapulse battery with it :-) The other problem is that there is a maximum current/power that any given battery can supply. This can be modled by assigning the battery an internal resistance (although the actual limitaion may be elsewhere, eg the activity of the chemical reaction involved). If the maximum current a lithium coin cell can provide in 30 mA, then its internal resistance is 100 ohms, and it isn't going to make anything hot. When I was first introduced to model rocketry, the recomended ignition system was a car battery and a piece of nichrome wire. Battery technolgy has improved a lot since then - alkaline batteries, as well as Nicads and "Polapulse" batteries can supply reasonable current, although I don't know whether a 9V battery is good enough - the individual cells are smaller than even a AAA sized battery (which raises interesting possibilities for all you people interested in building small things of all sorts !). A couple of small Nicads would be a better idea (or a 9V nicad battery). State of the art research type batteries have such high internal energy that they make nice bombs all by themseleves. Short them out an all the heat gets dissipated internally into the solute, some of which are volatile and flamable. I believe that someone was actually killed when one of the polymer batteries they were working on accidently shorted... Bill Westfield
jeffw@midas.TEK.COM (Jeff Winslow) (01/05/89)
In article <13062@cup.portal.com> mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) writes: >Am I right or am I wrong? C'mon net.electronics, pass judgement on Larry >Lippman vs. me! Do you want maximum facts, or just the facts you can be >trusted with? It would be dangerous for anyone to have more than the facts they could be trusted with. Think about what the phrase means, literally, and you'll see what I mean. The problem is that nobody knows which facts I can be trusted with, and I sure as hell want more than the facts somebody else thinks I can be trusted with, whether that someone else is Mark or Larry or the Federal government (especially them) or anyone else! Therein lies the rub. Three or four years ago, I would have said the net community was restricted enough that your information would be very unlikely to get to someone who would misuse it. Now I'm not so sure. On the other hand, your information would not be all that hard to figure out on one's own. Thus the loud trumpeting about "irresposible people setting off bombs" right and left seems to me a rather self-righteous overreaction - you didn't make possible something that was formerly impossible, you just made it a little easier. Of course, the most obnoxious articles are ones like this, that go on and on about the issue in sci.electronics, and then say "any further discussion should go somewhere else". :-) In short, a plague on both your houses. Jeff Winslow
gmg@hcx.uucp (Greg M. Garner) (01/05/89)
In article <2557@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) writes: > > How can I use a 9-volt battery and other componentsx > to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? > I want something which will get hot without shorting out the 9-volt. > Will diodes work, or am I mistaken? > -- I used to lite up Oxygen-Acetylene Bombs with very fine wire. It was probably about 30 gauge (guessing here), and I would tape the wire to the side of a trashbag or newspaper waterproofing bag (yes, you sense a bygone paperboy here). I would fill the bags with .5 Acetylene and .5 Oxygen, and then hook the thin wire up to the 12 volt car battery, and it would glow read, melt a hole in the bag, and ignite the mixture. I stopped doing this trick when One day I had oil on my hands and the Oxygen spotaneously ignited the bomb in my hand. (No permanent damage!). At any rate, try the thin wire. Another thought is the fuses that Estes model rockets use. They should light on up just fine! I do not know how you can contact them, but their factory is (was when I lived there anyway) located in Penrose Colorado. Good luck! Greg Garner 501-442-4847 gmg@hcx.uucp USENET: ...!uunet!harris.cis.ksu.edu!hcx!gmg
charette@edsews.EDS.COM (Mark A. Charette) (01/06/89)
In article <2557@ddsw1.MCS.COM>, benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) writes: > > How can I use a 9-volt battery and other componentsx > to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? As your Subject: line infers - try one of the igniters from the model rocket companies. I used a 9-v battery last summer with the kids (the penlight cells in my igniter were dead) - worked fine all afternoon (about 20 igniters worth). The new ones have a very fine nichrome wire which doesn't draw excessive current. The old ones (around 20 years ago - really !!) just about needed a car battery to get them hot. -- Mark Charette "People only like me when I'm dumb!", he said. Electronic Data Systems "I like you a lot." was the reply. 750 Tower Drive Voice: (313)265-7006 FAX: (313)265-5770 Troy, MI 48007-7019 charette@edsews.eds.com uunet!edsews!charette
childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) (01/06/89)
In article <2557@ddsw1.MCS.COM> benfeen@ddsw1.UUCP (Ben Feen) writes: >How can I use a 9-volt battery and other componentsx > to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? > I want something which will get hot without shorting out the 9-volt. >Will diodes work, or am I mistaken? What's wrong with a wrap of magnesium wire ? -- richard -- * Supernovae are a blast * * * * ..{amdahl|decwrl|octopus|pyramid|ucbvax}!avsd.UUCP!childers@tycho * * AMPEX Corporation - Audio-Visual Systems Division, R & D *
childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) (01/06/89)
In article <2617@ddsw1.MCS.COM> benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) writes: > ... So I would never actually build a bomb, not even paint somebody's >chair with ammonium tri-iodide. Interestingly enough, my brother tells me this is a very popular gag at MIT, except there they put it under toilet seats ... -- richard -- * Supernovae are a blast * * * * ..{amdahl|decwrl|octopus|pyramid|ucbvax}!avsd.UUCP!childers@tycho * * AMPEX Corporation - Audio-Visual Systems Division, R & D *
raoul@eplunix.UUCP (Otero) (01/07/89)
In article <368@avsd.UUCP>, childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) writes: > Interestingly enough, my brother tells me this is a very popular gag at > MIT, except there they put it under toilet seats ... NO! NO! NO! I've been at MIT around 8 years now: nobody but an uneducated freshman from Harvard would do something so silly and dangerous. To get enough to produce an appreciable effect, you have to put, say, an ounce of the precipitate under the seat. The drying characteristics are very chancy: In a moist environment like a toilet seat, it might never dry and become explosive. Or it might all go at once, spraying shrapnel all over some unsuspecting victim's groin. I'm all for good practical jokes, but this one is potentially lethal (remember the number of major blood vessels in the groin!) Now, a popper-snap taped to the little pedestal under the seat is another story.... Sorry if this seems inappropriate for this list. But I don't want anyone blaming my peers for foolish they don't do. -- Nico Garcia, Engineer, CIRL Mass. Eye and Ear Hospital raoul@eplunix
jim@trsvax.UUCP (01/07/89)
avsd.UUCP!childers writes in sci.electronics: " What's wrong with a wrap of magnesium wire ? I suppose both lack of a good source and the expense. Anyone know where to find this stuff? James Wyatt (uucp.rwsys!jim)
benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) (01/08/89)
I have stopped my experiments because my trusty butane torch blew up in my hand -- /| This is my sig. I must learn its parts like I know myself. \'o.O' Steven Spielberg presents the Last Temptation of Schwartzeneggar! =(___)= "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, but I will use my U rocket launcher." -=<<[[******BOOM******]]>>- +>----> WOOSH!
benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) (01/08/89)
How do you make ammonium tri-iodide, anyway? Just wondering. -- /| This is my sig. I must learn its parts like I know myself. \'o.O' Steven Spielberg presents the Last Temptation of Schwartzeneggar! =(___)= "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, but I will use my U rocket launcher." -=<<[[******BOOM******]]>>- +>----> WOOSH!
mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) (01/10/89)
avsd.UUCP!childers writes in sci.electronics: >" What's wrong with a wrap of magnesium wire ? >I suppose both lack of a good source and the expense. Anyone know where to >find this stuff? > >James Wyatt (uucp.rwsys!jim) At the risk of enormous flames, both here and hereafter, the fine wire inside a flashbulb is magnesium wire.
davef@brspyr1.BRS.Com (Dave Fiske) (01/14/89)
In article <368@avsd.UUCP>, childers@avsd.UUCP (Richard Childers) writes: > In article <2617@ddsw1.MCS.COM> benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) writes: > > > ... So I would never actually build a bomb, not even paint somebody's > >chair with ammonium tri-iodide. > > Interestingly enough, my brother tells me this is a very popular gag at > MIT, except there they put it under toilet seats ... In John McPhee's biography of Ted Brown, who worked on our nation's nuclear weapons program, it is mentioned that Brown used to dab some ammonioum tri-iodide in the keyholes of men in the dorm who were in the habit of staying out late (with women, presumably). Soon as they put their keys to the lock--BANG. Everybody on the floor knew so-and-so had just dragged in. Just goes to show, you CAN be a prankster in college, and still be trusted to work on nuclear weapons. (Also, we used to concoct this in junior high, but we were nice--all we ever blew up was filter paper.) -- "FLYING ELEPHANTS DROP COW Dave Fiske (davef@brspyr1.BRS.COM) PIES ON HORRIFIED CROWD!" Home: David_A_Fiske@cup.portal.com Headline from Weekly World News CIS: 75415,163 GEnie: davef
henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) (01/14/89)
In article <2653@ddsw1.MCS.COM> benfeen@ddsw1.UUCP (Ben Feen) writes: >How do you make ammonium tri-iodide, anyway? Just wondering. If you've got any sense, you don't. The stuff is dangerous. Notably, it is *not* true that it's safe when wet. It's merely less unsafe. And most people have totally inadequate ideas of the power of small quantities of explosives. -- "God willing, we will return." | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology -Eugene Cernan, the Moon, 1972 | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu
phillip@bartal.CRLABS.COM (Phillip M. Vogel) (01/15/89)
In article <1989Jan14.082541.628@utzoo.uucp> henry@utzoo.uucp (Henry Spencer) writes: >In article <2653@ddsw1.MCS.COM> benfeen@ddsw1.UUCP (Ben Feen) writes: >>How do you make ammonium tri-iodide, anyway? Just wondering. >"God willing, we will return." | Henry Spencer at U of Toronto Zoology >-Eugene Cernan, the Moon, 1972 | uunet!attcan!utzoo!henry henry@zoo.toronto.edu *****FLAME ON ***** SCI.ELECTRONICS GET IT? NOT SCI.MAKE.A.BOMB, OR SCI.WASTE.NET.BANDWIDTH OR SCI.DON'T.MAKE.A.BOMB OR SCI.YOU.SHOULDN'T.TELL.FUTURE.TERRORISTS.HOW. TO.MAKE.A.BOMB OR ***ANYTHING ELSE*** S C I . E L E C T R O N I C S !!! Sorry for yelling like that, but this is way out of hand. We are trying to justify long distance bills for newsfeeds, and this kind of crap is making it *very* difficult. *****FLAME OFF***** Thank you for your consideration, Phil
benfeen@ddsw1.MCS.COM (Ben Feen) (01/16/89)
I'm about to try it out - After our chemistry test we're making some Nitrogen Tri-iodide. -- /| This is my sig. I must learn its parts like I know myself. \'o.O' Steven Spielberg presents the Last Temptation of Schwartzeneggar! =(___)= "Let he who is without sin cast the first stone, but I will use my U rocket launcher." -=<<[[******BOOM******]]>>- +>----> WOOSH!
paszkows@prlhp1.prl.philips.co.uk (paszkows) (01/16/89)
In article <2557@ddsw1.MCS.COM> benfeen@ddsw1.UUCP (Ben Feen) writes: > >How can I use a 9-volt battery and other componentsx > to heat something up enough that I can light a fuse with it? > I want something which will get hot without shorting out the 9-volt. >Will diodes work, or am I mistaken? I doubt whether you could obtain the desired temperature with diodes. Use a piece of very fine wire, which when passing current through it will get very hot indeed. One method I have tried is to use a Brillo pad ( TM ) - a mass of steel wool will soap for cleaning pans. Take about 1/2 cm3 of wool, stick two wires into it and pass current. Bit of it will melt. I believe the IRA and other terrorist organisation used this type of igniter in crude bombs. ( IT is enough to set of gunpowder or similar explosive ). -- ######################################### # "If this is heaven ahm bailin' out" # # - THE BIRTHDAY PARTY # #########################################