jdb9608@ultb.UUCP (J.D. Beutel) (04/26/89)
I remember hearing about pioneering experiments done by Nichola Tessla (sp?) in the field of electricity. ;-) The gist was to broadcast electricity like the radio waves of today. The idea was scrapped because there was no way to charge people for it. ;-) ;-) If electricity became so cheap that a blanket tax could cover the cost, then could we really do away with power lines? I'm just a humble computer science major. Could some knowledgable person set me straight on Nichola Tessla's technology? -- 11011011 ___jdb9608@ritvax.BITNET or @ritcv.UUCP___ "I am, therefore I am."
rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rick Francis Golembiewski) (04/26/89)
Yes, you could broad cast energy in a similar mannor to radio waves (remember that radio waves are a form of energy too, so it already being done in a sense), HOWEVER you are NOT going to see power lines disappear, this is because it is increadibly inefficient because the power would be transmitted in a sphereical wave (assuming that you wanted to transmit power to everyone), you run into a distance dependance, ie the farther you are from the transmitting source the weaker the power transmitted it. (I believe the amplitude is dependant on 1/r^2, however I'm not certain). In any case, ever wondered why you have to have to amplify a radio signal when the radio stations use far far far more power then you ever would need to run your radio? It's because by the time the signal gets to you, there isn't all that much power left. In any case electrical lines are lots more efficient, since you only send power where it needs to go, and of course the electric company can meter it too :-)... // Rick Golembiewski rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu \\ \\ #include stddisclaimer.h // \\ "I never respected a man who could spell" // \\ -M. Twain //
kg19+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kurt A. Geisel) (04/27/89)
I would be interested in this big time too. I am a general Tesla buff, but actual technical data on his wireless transmission systems is scarce and I am sure there are those who believe he didn't accomplish it quite as fully as the reports lead us to believe. I mean, obviously you can run neon bulbs with a charged ion stream from a high voltage source and a needle at 30 feet, but this isn't real practical. The writings of his numerous lab assistants talk of very tantalizing eye-witnessed successes at the Pike's Peak lab, but alas no real technical detail. He surely must have convinced SOME people (including J.P. Morgan) since the 100-foot broadcast tower/complex was actually built, but was torn down when he pissed Morgan off and lost all funding. It had a copper-plated sphere at the top, and was supposed to serve as the universal source of power as well as a radio programming center (news, information, and power from the same source- too bad they couldn't charge for it.) Anyway, Tesla is known for a few fantastic claims, but this one has more legit pointers than most. Anyone's findings on this subject would be greatly appreciated. - Kurt Kurt Geisel SNAIL : Carnegie Mellon University 65 Lambeth Dr. ARPA : kg19+@andrew.cmu.edu Pittsburgh, PA 15241 UUCP : uunet!nfsun!kgeisel "I will not be pushed, filed, indexed, stamped, BIX : kgeisel briefed, debriefed, or numbered!" - The Prisoner
wte@ncrcae.Columbia.NCR.COM (Bill Eason) (04/27/89)
Didn't Popular Science have an article on remote-powered remote-control airplanes within the last couple of years? That would, of course, be a model airplane, but I seem to remember large enough to carry a camera (for reconaissance, etc). I never can remember if some of these articles are on actual developments or on "Planes of the Future...". I'll try to find the issue. -Bill -- Bill Eason (803) 791-6419 ...!ucbvax!sdcsvax!ncr-sd!ncrcae!sauron!wte NCR Corporation ....!rutgers!mcnc!ece-csc!ncrcae!sauron!wte E & M Columbia 3325 Platt Springs Rd. West Columbia, SC 29169
greg@bilbo (Greg Wageman) (04/29/89)
In article <gYJRpyy00WB-E57Uwj@andrew.cmu.edu> rg20+@andrew.cmu.edu (Rick Francis Golembiewski) writes: >Yes, you could broad cast energy in a similar mannor to radio waves (remember >that radio waves are a form of energy too, so it already being done in a >sense), HOWEVER you are NOT going to see power lines disappear, this is because >it is increadibly inefficient because the power would be transmitted in a >sphereical wave (assuming that you wanted to transmit power to everyone), you >run into a distance dependance, ie the farther you are from the transmitting >source the weaker the power transmitted it. Having one, centralized broadcast station is inefficient. Hell, we don't even do that with wires. The power grids I'm familiar with are fed by multiple generating stations, with multiple local substations. A more efficient tesla system might have a radiator on each block, or in each house. In the former case, you wouldn't need local distribution wires to each house; in the latter you wouldn't need wiring in the house itself. However, since this is radiated power and would have a particular frequency, and a harmonic series, it would wreak havoc with radio reception on those and nearby frequencies. >In any case, ever wondered why >you have to have to amplify a radio signal when the radio stations use far >far far more power then you ever would need to run your radio? It's because >by the time the signal gets to you, there isn't all that much power left. Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a "cat whisker" contact you had to manually position to find an active [semiconductive] spot on the crystal), a coil, a capacitor and a sensitive headphone. With an earth ground and a straight-wire antenna, it is possible to receive enough signal to drive the headphone without additional power. However, you aren't wrong in that you receive microwatts of the station's kilowatt broadcast power. Longish .signature follows. Skip now, or don't complain. Greg Wageman DOMAIN: greg@sj.ate.slb.com Schlumberger Technologies UUCP: ...!uunet!sjsca4!greg 1601 Technology Drive BIX: gwage San Jose, CA 95110-1397 CIS: 74016,352 (408) 437-5198 GEnie: G.WAGEMAN ------------------ "Live Free; Die Anyway." ------------------ Opinions expressed herein are solely the responsibility of the author.
onymouse@netcom.UUCP (John DeBert) (04/30/89)
in article <913@snjsn1.SJ.ATE.SLB.COM>, greg@bilbo (Greg Wageman) says: > [... stuff deleted to placate inews] > > Having one, centralized broadcast station is inefficient. Hell, we > don't even do that with wires. The power grids I'm familiar with are > fed by multiple generating stations, with multiple local substations. > > A more efficient tesla system might have a radiator on each block, or > in each house. In the former case, you wouldn't need local > distribution wires to each house; in the latter you wouldn't need > wiring in the house itself. > Tesla worked on a plan to use one or two huge Tesla coils to generate RF power at the resonant frequency of the planet, which, if I recall is about 140KHz (I may be in error about the frequency. It's been some years since I read about it). The idea was to provide "free power" for the world. I recall that he had developed receiving converters that would pick up the RF energy and convert it to a usable form for lighting, et cetera. Small scale devices in his experiments worked very well. His ideas upset Edison and Westinghouse considerably and he faced considerable opposition. (One might recall that he had made bitter enemies in the Edison camp by disproving Edison's claims that alternating current was too danger- ous to use and further proving that Edison's DC power system was too inefficient over long distances.) > However, since this is radiated power and would have a particular > frequency, and a harmonic series, it would wreak havoc with radio > reception on those and nearby frequencies. Actually, if Tesla's system had been put to use, we would have already found effective means of preventing such interference. Besides, the power grids already in use cause quite a bit of interference. > >>In any case, ever wondered why >>you have to have to amplify a radio signal when the radio stations use far >>far far more power then you ever would need to run your radio? It's because >>by the time the signal gets to you, there isn't all that much power left. In Tesla's design, the power actually increased, since it was tuned to the resonant frequency of the planet - the oscillations, that is. He was allegedly surprised to find that he was getting more power out of his system than he was putting in and realized that it was due to the effects of resonance. It seems that he was actually tapping the natural energy in the planet, using his device to manipulate it. > > Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These > were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a > "cat whisker" contact you had to manually position to find an active > [semiconductive] spot on the crystal), a coil, a capacitor and a > sensitive headphone. With an earth ground and a straight-wire > antenna, it is possible to receive enough signal to drive the > headphone without additional power. > Some place also sells crystal sets that are powerful enough to drive a speaker. I do not recall the name but I have seen at least one advert. > However, you aren't wrong in that you receive microwatts of the > station's kilowatt broadcast power. > > Greg Wageman There are a few good books about Telsa and his work. Unfortunately, I do not have the info on them at hand. There are also quite a few patents that you can get copies of. Be forewarned, however, that Tesla has literally hundreds of patents in his name If anyone wants the info on the books, please send email to me and I'll return the info when I can find the books. J DeBert onymouse@netcom.UUCP [...!ubvax!sun!amdahl!dlb!netcom!onymouse] CI$: 75530,347 | GEnie: A.N.Onymouse | telex: 6502636614 Box 51067, Pacific Grove, CA 93950 "Anything you say can and will offend someone..." (Lazarus Long)
mmm@cup.portal.com (Mark Robert Thorson) (04/30/89)
If I'm not mistaken, Tesla's plan was to set the earth-air-ionosphere cavity into resonance with a wave of about 10 Hz. You would draw power from this wave using an antenna. Some of Tesla's speculations became interesting during Project Sanguine and Project Seafarer, which were programs to develop an ELF transmitter for communication to submarines. (ELF is the band from 2000 Hz down to DC.)
ISW@cup.portal.com (Isaac S Wingfield) (05/01/89)
Greg Wageman writes:
Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These
were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a
^^^^^^^^^
Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold).
Isaac isw@cup.portal.com
aj-mberg@dasys1.UUCP (Micha Berger) (05/01/89)
I was wondering.... Since we do have stations putting out energy, and we can power cicuits off them (e.g. crystal radio sets) how much free power could a person pull out of the air? Is it a fuction of antenna size? -- Micha Berger Disclaimer: All opinions expressed here are my own. The spelling, noone's. email: ...!cmcl2!hombre!dasys1!aj-mberg Aspaklaria Publications vox: (718) 380-7572 73-32 173 St, Hillcrest, NY 11366
kg19+@andrew.cmu.edu (Kurt A. Geisel) (05/02/89)
> Tesla worked on a plan to use one or two huge Tesla coils to generate RF >power at the resonant frequency of the planet, which, if I recall is about >140KHz (I may be in error about the frequency. It's been some years since I >read about it). The idea was to provide "free power" for the world. I >recall that he had developed receiving converters that would pick up the >RF energy and convert it to a usable form for lighting, et cetera. Small >scale devices in his experiments worked very well. For the record, the actual frequency is somewhere around 7 Hz. There is modern evidence to back the "resonance" theory. Lightning strikes around the globe "ring" the Earth at 7 Hz, which can easily be seen with a sensitive detector and spectrum analyzer. - Kurt
jackg@tekirl.LABS.TEK.COM (Jack Gjovaag) (05/02/89)
In article <17794@cup.portal.com> ISW@cup.portal.com (Isaac S Wingfield) writes: >Greg Wageman writes: > >Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These >were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a > ^^^^^^^^^ >Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold). > ^^^^^^^^^^^^ Nope again. Galena (a lead/sulpher compund) Jack Gjovaag Tek Labs
myers@hpfcdj.HP.COM (Bob Myers) (05/03/89)
>>Greg Wageman writes: >Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These >were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a ^^^^^^^^^ >Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold). >Isaac isw@cup.portal.com Actually, BOTH materials, along with several others, can be used as the detector in a "crystal set"; Greg's right, though, in that the "classic" "cat's whisker" set used a germanium crystal. You had to hunt around on the crystal for a "hot spot" at which the "cat's whisker" could be placed to obtain the necessary diode action. Not much real power here, though (notice how cleverly he ties this all back to the original posting! 8-)) As mentioned above, many minerals can be used - I seem to recall reading of a WW I (or II?) "survival tactic" which involved building yourself a crystal radio out of a lump of coal balanced on the edges of two razor blade nailed into a block of wood! Bob Myers KC0EW HP Graphics Tech. Div.| Opinions expressed here are not Ft. Collins, Colorado | those of my employer or any other {the known universe}!hplabs!hpfcla!myers | sentient life-form on this planet.
jdb9608@ultb.UUCP (J.D. Beutel) (05/03/89)
The library here was missing its book on Tesla, but a previous posting reminded me that there are periodicals too. Turning to the trusty _Reader's_Guide_, I found an article in _Omni_, March '88, (wop): >In the meantime Golka had become interested in the application >for which Tesla had intended the coil. Tesla knew that the >ionosphere, the upper layer of the earth's atmosphere rich in >charged particles, is a natural conductor of electricity. >He theorized that if he could beam up electricity to the >ionosphere in 8-second pulses (8 seconds being the time required >for an electron to circumnavigate the earth), then he could >set in motion a continuous electron wave of tremendous amplitude >that could be transmitted anywhere on the globe without wires >and with an efficiency of 90 percent. [vs. copper wire ~ 70%] Golka is a researcher (crackpot?) working in MA now. The article mentioned another, more respected, researcher who was considering the same idea on behalf of some oil company that's got a lot of natural gas up in Alaska with no method of distribution. Getting the electricity back out of the ionosphere was tricky. I think laser beams were suggested, I suppose in order to ionize the nearby air, producing a conductive pathway from the laser to the ionosphere. -- 11011011 ___jdb9608@ritvax.BITNET or @ritcv.UUCP___ "I am, therefore I am."
kenny@m.cs.uiuc.edu (05/03/89)
/* Written 12:15 am May 1, 1989 by ISW@cup.portal.com in m.cs.uiuc.edu:sci.electronics */
Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These
were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a
^^^^^^^^^
Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold).
/* End of text from m.cs.uiuc.edu:sci.electronics */
You're both wrong. Galena, a lead ore.
| / o Kevin Kenny (217) 333-5821
|< /) | | | |/\ Department of Computer Science o , o ,
| \ X_ \/ | | | University of Illinois 40 07 N 88 13 W
kenny@cs.uiuc.edu 1304 W. Springfield Ave.
uunet!uiucdcs!kenny Urbana, IL 61801 AD ASTRA PER ARDUAjohn@frog.UUCP (John Woods) (05/03/89)
In article <17794@cup.portal.com>, ISW@cup.portal.com (Isaac S Wingfield) writes: > Greg Wageman writes: > > Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These > were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a > ^^^^^^^^^ > Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold). Also sometimes a crystal of galena (lead sulfide?). I remember reading in a really OLD book of kid's science projects about how you could use a rusty disposable razor blade and a bent safety pin as a detector... -- John Woods, Charles River Data Systems, Framingham MA, (508) 626-1101 ...!decvax!frog!john, john@frog.UUCP, ...!mit-eddie!jfw, jfw@eddie.mit.edu
R_Tim_Coslet@cup.portal.com (05/03/89)
In article: <17794@cup.portal.com> ISW@cup.portal.com (Isaac S Wingfield) writes: >Greg Wageman writes: > >Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These >were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a > ^^^^^^^^^ >Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold). > Sorry, you are BOTH wrong... it was Galena Crystals (Lead Sulfides). R. Tim Coslet Usenet: R_Tim_Coslet@cup.portal.com BIX: r.tim_coslet
jgo@mcgp1.UUCP (John Opalko, N7KBT) (05/04/89)
In article <17794@cup.portal.com>, ISW@cup.portal.com (Isaac S Wingfield) writes: > Greg Wageman writes: >> >> Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These >> were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a > ^^^^^^^^^ > Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold). I'm not saying you're wrong, because I don't know whether or not iron pyrite will work. However, the traditional crystal set (so I've read; I'm not *that* old) used a galena crystal (lead sulfide). The inductor was wound on a Quaker Oats box. I don't recall what the capacitor was. Sometimes the builder had to spend hours moving the cat whisker around the surface of the crystal looking for an active spot. Sigh. Excuse me while I go suffer a fit of nostalgia... :-) John Opalko, N7KBT uunet!nwnexus!thebes!mcgp1!jgo
dennisg@felix.UUCP (Dennis Griesser) (05/04/89)
Greg Wageman writes: >Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These >were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a In article <17794@cup.portal.com> ISW@cup.portal.com (Isaac S Wingfield) writes: >Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold). Nope yourself! He probably ment Galena, PbS, the principal ore of lead.
greg@bilbo (Greg Wageman) (05/04/89)
In article <5040@tekgvs.LABS.TEK.COM> jackg@tekirl.LABS.TEK.COM (Jack Gjovaag) writes: >In article <17794@cup.portal.com> ISW@cup.portal.com (Isaac S Wingfield) writes: >>Greg Wageman writes: >> >>Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These >>were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a >> ^^^^^^^^^ >>Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold). >> ^^^^^^^^^^^^ > >Nope again. Galena (a lead/sulpher compund) Yes, galena is correct. Later "experimenter's" kits replaced the crystal and catwhisker with a glass-encased germanium diode, but I was talking about the original. It's been a while since I used my crystal set. I'm into high-tech now. You know, triodes and superheterodyne. :-) Longish .signature follows. Skip now, or don't complain. Greg Wageman DOMAIN: greg@sj.ate.slb.com Schlumberger Technologies UUCP: ...!uunet!sjsca4!greg 1601 Technology Drive BIX: gwage San Jose, CA 95110-1397 CIS: 74016,352 (408) 437-5198 GEnie: G.WAGEMAN ------------------ "Live Free; Die Anyway." ------------------ Opinions expressed herein are solely the responsibility of the author.
strong@tc.fluke.COM (Norm Strong) (05/04/89)
In article <17794@cup.portal.com> ISW@cup.portal.com (Isaac S Wingfield) writes: }Greg Wageman writes: } }Hmm, I guess you must be too young to remember crystal radios? These }were radios that used a diode (originally, a germanium crystal and a } ^^^^^^^^^ }Nope. Iron pyrites (fool's gold). We called it galena, and it was lead sulfide. -- Norm (strong@tc.fluke.com)
ISW@cup.portal.com (Isaac S Wingfield) (05/05/89)
OK, OK as soon as I read "GALENA", the old flashback hit. Absolutely right. BTW, anybody ever make a "crystal" set out of an old Gillette "blue blade"? They were very high carbon steel, and sometimes you could find sensitive areas on them. (I suspect the sensitive places were carbide, as that is a known "crystal set" detector, although unlike galena, it required a high pressure on the cat's whisker.) An abashed Isaac isw@cup.portal.com
rrw@naucse.UUCP (Robert Wier) (05/06/89)
All of this talk about crystal sets and razor blades reminded me of an incident about 20 years ago, when I was living in Boulder, Colorado. I had just moved into a new apartment, and was using a razor blade (single edge "blue blade" to scrape some masking tape off a large window). I was standing on a chair, and was thus somewhat insulated from the floor. Now, Boulder normally has a thunderstorm in the afternoon on many days during the summer, and one came up while I was working on this window (on the inside). Suddenly a LARGE lightning bolt hit the top of the Flatirons, about 3 miles away. These are large monolithic slabs of sandstone that were tilted up at a sharp angle when the Rocky Mountains rose. They are about 700' high (if I remember correctly). I received a h*ll of a jolt from that razor blade when the lighting struck. Now this was a bit a a suprise, since although I'm familiar with induced EMF in antenna systems due to nearby strikes, I would have never thought that a razor blade had enough metallic area to collect enough EMF to be perceptable. I believe it had something to do with the fact that at that moment the blade was in contact with a large insulator (the glass), and it rectified the current. Any comments on this effect? 73's de WB0IMC - Bob Wier College of Engineering Flagstaff, Arizona Northern Arizona University ...arizona!naucse!rrw | BITNET: WIER@NAUVAX | *usual disclaimers*
seeger@poe.ufnet.ufl.edu (F. L. Charles Seeger III) (05/08/89)
In article <9504@dasys1.UUCP> aj-mberg@dasys1.UUCP (Micha Berger) writes: |I was wondering.... | Since we do have stations putting out energy, and we can power |cicuits off them (e.g. crystal radio sets) how much free power could a |person pull out of the air? Is it a fuction of antenna size? Yeah, it would be, and of the signal strength. A recently retired prof of mine used to do this back in the 40s and 50s -- used the transmitted power from one station to power a radio that he had tuned to a competitor! -- Charles Seeger 216 Larsen Hall +1 904 392 8935 Electrical Engineering University of Florida Just say NO to seeger@iec.ufl.edu Gainesville, FL 32611 EtherTalk