jfd@octel.UUCP (John F. Detke) (03/12/91)
Hello, I am activly pursuing purchasing a house beyond PG&E power. The house currently has a 5 KW generator, batterys and a 24 volt converter, and propane refridgerators. I am interested in starting a discussion, and getting any experience with such systems. Items I am particularly interested in are: maintenance requirement, battery life, generator life, etc. I know most of these are "it depends". Additionally, Bay area or mail-order supply for this equipment and propane appliances would be appreciated. My primary concern is my home computer (Sun 3/60 w/ 141 Disk drive) I was planning on adding a UPS, but am unsure how this constant drain will affect the system. The house has a fairly good southern exposure (or rather, the land does) so photovoltaic cells may be possible as an addition. So, the big question: Are home computers completely incompatible with self-generated power systems? Also: if anyone has ANY info on the costs/possiblity of paying for PG&E extensions, I would be interested (I am pretty sure this is not very cost-effective :) Thanks, jfd -- John F. Detke Octel Communications Corp 890 Tasman Drive M/S 05-04 Milpitas CA 95035 jfd@octel.com
amott@mips.com (Arch Mott) (03/13/91)
jfd@octel.UUCP (John F. Detke) writes: >Hello, >I am activly pursuing purchasing a house beyond PG&E power. >The house currently has a 5 KW generator, batterys and >a 24 volt converter, and propane refridgerators. Hi John et al. You'd probably like to look into getting Home Power, a publication which deals with these types of issues. Let's see... I ve got the address here somewhere... Home Power Magazine P.O. Box 130 Hornbrook, CA 96044-0130 3 rd class mailing is 10 US dollars in the US, and first class mailing is 20 US dollars in the US. It is a bi-monthly publication. I now quote Bruce Nordman (b_nordman@lbl.gov): There is another magazine called "Home Energy" which can be reached at 415-524-5405. It used to be "Energy Auditor and Retrofitter". It probably isn't the one you want now, but you may want to know about it later. -Cheers, Arch. -- amott@mips.com {ames,decwrl}!mips!amott ------------------------------------------------------------------------------- "Honest to goodness, the bars weren't open this morning. They must've been voting for a new president or something..." -X-
amirza@silver.ucs.indiana.edu (anmar mirza) (03/13/91)
In article <445@octelb.octel.UUCP> jfd@octel.UUCP (John F. Detke) writes: > >Hello, >I am interested in starting a discussion, and getting >any experience with such systems. Items I am particularly >interested in are: maintenance requirement, battery life, >generator life, etc. I know most of these are "it depends". >Additionally, Bay area or mail-order supply for this equipment >and propane appliances would be appreciated. Ok, I'll discuss with you. I do independant research and development and installation of small scale energy systems, esp. home produced electricity. >My primary concern is my home computer (Sun 3/60 w/ 141 Disk drive) >I was planning on adding a UPS, but am unsure how this constant drain >will affect the system. That will depend on how much you run it. If you run it 24 hours a day, it will certainly put a large drain on your system. The Sun monitor out in our machine room is rated at 425 watts, and the cpu and accessories eat up another 600 watts (that's what it is rated at, nominal draw is probably significantly less). You are talking about a possible draw of over 24 kWh per day if you run it continuously. Better than an UPS may be installing one of the newer high efficiency inverters such as the Trace. Most of them will provide 2 kWh capacity and surge up to 6 kWh. They make em in 12, 24, 36, and 48 volt models. These are quasi-sine wave, and run a little better than 90% efficiency. They also cost the same or less than an UPS. They should run most computers with switching power supplies. John Osbourne, who advertises in Home Power Magazine, PO Box 130, Hornbrook, Ca 96044-0130, is a specialist in low powered computing, and may be able to help you further with the computing aspect of it. >The house has a fairly good southern exposure (or rather, >the land does) so photovoltaic cells may be possible as an addition. Yes, they will probably fit well into your system. You probably can't immediately afford to run out and buy a bank big enough to provide all your power, but there is no reason you can't start adding them as you can afford them. The more you add, the less you have to run the generator. >So, the big question: Are home computers completely incompatible with >self-generated power systems? Absolutely not! It certainly will cost you more though. I suppose the ideal scenario (for the type of computing I need) would be a 386 compatible portable. You combine the advantages of low power draw with computing power. But, even if you want to go all out, it still isn't impossible, just expensive. A local mail order place for you would be Real Goods. Their number in California is 707-468-9214, and outside California, 1-800-762-7325. 966 Mazzoni Street Ukiah, CA 95482 Be warned, while they are pretty competitive on the larger stuff, they are fairly expensive for the smaller stuff (lights, meters, etc.) Home Power Magazine is a better source for a diversity of suppliers. I'll be glad to continue this discussion here or in email. -- Anmar Mirza # If a product is good, # I speak only my # Space, humans next EMT-A # they will stop making # opinions on these # goal in the race N9ISY (tech) # it. Unless it is # subjects, IU has # for immortality. Networks Tech.# designed to kill. # it's own. # --- me
gordon@news.colorado.edu (GORDON ALLEN R) (03/14/91)
jfd@octel.UUCP (John F. Detke) writes: >Hello, >I am activly pursuing purchasing a house beyond PG&E power. >The house currently has a 5 KW generator, batterys and >a 24 volt converter, and propane refridgerators. >I am interested in starting a discussion, and getting >any experience with such systems. Items I am particularly >interested in are: maintenance requirement, battery life, >generator life, etc. I know most of these are "it depends". >Additionally, Bay area or mail-order supply for this equipment >and propane appliances would be appreciated. >My primary concern is my home computer (Sun 3/60 w/ 141 Disk drive) >I was planning on adding a UPS, but am unsure how this constant drain >will affect the system. >The house has a fairly good southern exposure (or rather, >the land does) so photovoltaic cells may be possible as an addition. >So, the big question: Are home computers completely incompatible with >self-generated power systems? >Also: if anyone has ANY info on the costs/possiblity of paying for PG&E >extensions, I would be interested (I am pretty sure this is not very >cost-effective :) >Thanks, >jfd >-- >John F. Detke >Octel Communications Corp >890 Tasman Drive >M/S 05-04 >Milpitas CA 95035 >jfd@octel.com I've been consulting on a project to develop the hydro and pv resources on a site in a remote area of New Mexico about 8 miles from the grid. The estimated cost of hookup to the grid is $200,000. We can probably do a lot with the existing resources with far less money. Aside from the hydro, it seems there are a lot of similarities between our two systems. Things to consider are proper sizing of the batteries to both the pv panels and the generator as well as to the loads, in order to get optimal charging and discharging cycles. This will not only prolong the battery life but give you optimal state of charge as well. We have recently switched to NiCd batteries (vented, pocket plate). They can be had 2nd hand, although they are still more expensive that Pb-acid types. However, their life span is longer, they can be reasonably easily reconditioned, can be floated/trickle charged. I would second the suggestion of switching to a '386 portable because of the power considerations. With a battery pack, you have a built in UPS system making the system virtually immune from power fluctuations, etc. Such problems (brown outs/black outs) killed one of our computers. You also might look into Sunfrost or Photocomm refrigerators instead of the propane. These run at about 10% of the power consumed by convential units and could withstand a black out for probably quite some time with only minimal temp rise. Look into compact fluourescent lighting, another big energy saver (about 25% of the conventional incandescents). Good luck Allen Gordon -- Allen Gordon University of Colorado, Boulder gordon@tramp.colorado.edu gordon_A@cubldr.colorado.edu
lairdkb@mentor.cc.purdue.edu (Kyler Laird) (03/14/91)
What is the price range for a 'good' inverter (4-8KW)? I'm interested in a system which converts all power (grid, solar, wind, diesel, corn, water...-derived) into DC for use by battery chargers and home/farm appliances via inverter. Such an inverter would need to be capable of running continuously. Are there any special problems associated with using multiple DC sources?
jones@sj.ate.slb.com (Clark Jones) (03/14/91)
In article <445@octelb.octel.UUCP> jfd@octel.UUCP (John F. Detke) writes: > >Hello, > >I am activly pursuing purchasing a house beyond PG&E power. >The house currently has a 5 KW generator, batterys and >a 24 volt converter, and propane refridgerators. > >I am interested in starting a discussion, and getting >any experience with such systems. Items I am particularly >interested in are: maintenance requirement, battery life, >generator life, etc. I know most of these are "it depends". To mis-quote an old TV program, "sci.energy is the place ya wanna be"... I don't know about Sun's, but computers on inverters is a hot topic in Home Power (see below). Apparantly, it boils down to "most computers work OK, laser-printers don't". I'd add that I doubt most _old_ (read >5.25") hard disks would run on an inverter. Anyway, it's been a few months since I posted this, so here it is. Hope it helps. ---------------------------- My standard message on solar ---------------- I see so many requests for info about photovolatics (PV's) and such that I've put together this "standard reply". For "how-to" info and "war stories" from people that are living with PV's: Home Power Magazine POB 130 Hornbrook, CA 96044-0130 Rates for 6 issuses (1 year): (U.S. $) US: 3rd class shipping - $10 1st class shipping - $20 Canada: Air - $21, Surface $15 Mexico: Air - $16, Surface $14 Central Am., Bahamas, Bermuda, Columbia, Venezuela: Air - $21, Surface $15 So. Am. (ex. Col. & Ven.), Europe, No. Africa: Air - $27, Surface $15 Asia, Australia, New Zealand, Pac. Ocean Islans, Africa (ex. No. Africa), Indian Ocean Islands, Middle East: Air - $34, Surface $15 (rates taken from Dec 1990/Jan 1991 issue) For products: Real Goods 966 E. Mazzoni St. Ukiah, CA 95482 Ph. 1-800-762-7325 FAX 707-468-0301 Disclaimer: The opinions expressed above are mine and not those of Schlumberger because they are NOT covered by the patent agreement! My only connection with either company mentioned above is as a satisfied reader/customer. Alternate reply path: jones@sjs.sj.ate.slb.com Phone: (602) 345-3638 Snail: Clark Jones, Schlumberger Technologies, 7855 S. River Pkwy #116, Tempe, AZ 85284-1825
esf00@uts.amdahl.com (Elliott S. Frank) (03/14/91)
In article <445@octelb.octel.UUCP> jfd@octel.UUCP (John F. Detke) writes: > >I am interested in starting a discussion, and getting >any experience with [generator, batteries, propane refrigerator ...] > >My primary concern is my home computer (Sun 3/60 w/ 141 Disk drive) >I was planning on adding a UPS, but am unsure how this constant drain >will affect the system. Well, some time back (could have been last summer) we had a bit of disucssion on that ... I'm not sure if it was here, or in misc.rural. My ridge is a mile and half back from the end of the PG+E lines, and populated with engineers. I'm using 1 kw of solar panels and 1200 AH of batteries. My neighbors (hi, Rob!) use propane or gasoline generators and batteries. I'm running my Mac fairly happily off the inverter (switching power supplies don't care about waveforms). My neighbor up the ridge is running his HP Vecta off his generator, no problems. Skip the UPS -- it's just a battery and an inverter, and you're already buying one of those. Your Sun shouldn't have any problem with the generator power or with inverter power. You probably should replace your laser printer with an inkjet -- a laser printer wants 1000 - 1200 watts of sine wave power to keep the fuser heated. The main rule to remember is that you don't want to run a heater off your batteries -- hair dryers, toaster ovens, and laser printers all qualify. You should look into the new flourescent bulbs -- we've relamped most of the house with screw-in florescents, and no longer worry about draining the battery. My wife has (hiding in her archives) the address for Jeff's Auto Repair in Willetts. If you've decided on supporting the propane habits of ancient propane Servel refrigerators, he's the only guy who can supply replacement parts. We've looked at the 12v Sunfrost, and will probably get one, after we beef up our battery bank. Sunfrost makes a 19 cu ft refrigerator that requires 500w/day, and a 19 cu ft freezer that requires 1500w/day. -- Elliott Frank ...!{uunet,sun}!amdahl!esf00 (408) 746-6384 or ....!esf00@amdahl.com [the above opinions are strictly mine, if anyone's.] [the above signature may or may not be repeated, depending upon some inscrutable property of the mailer-of-the-week.]
maslak@unix.SRI.COM (Valerie Maslak) (03/20/91)
In article <ebQ701Uo3d0=00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com> esf00@amdahl.uts.amdahl.com (Elliott S. Frank) writes: >We've looked at the 12v Sunfrost, and will probably get one, after we >beef up our battery bank. Sunfrost makes a 19 cu ft refrigerator that >requires 500w/day, and a 19 cu ft freezer that requires 1500w/day. Elliott, We also looked at the Sunfrost freezers and refrigerators, and for power budget they can't be beat, but for our application, which is direct seafront in a tropical environment,we were worried about two things: 1. The freezer is of course not a frost-free, so we were quite worried about the amount of frost build-up from the humidity. 2. They evidently build their frames out of formica over plywood. We have a terrible termite problem and were concerned that the termites would munch the applicances eventually. What we really need is stainless steel like the Traulsen, but I can't begin to tell you how many kilowatts a Traulsen uses per day. Refrigeration has been our biggest problem. There is no propane on the island eiother; tanks have to be sent off on a boat to be refilled. Valerie Maslak